Star Wars Episode VII THE SPOILERS AWAKEN

[ab aeterno]

I liked the Clone Wars more. I also like Ahsoka more than Ezra and the useless Kanan.

I think Rebels is more consistent - The early Clone Wars, before they get into the longer arcs, is a bit dull, plus, some of the storylines (like the hostage situation on Coruscant) don't really make any sense, IMO. I'm a fan of both though.

[Veltigar]

 

I think some people are just expecting too much, and (this isn't meant as a personal criticism), that is going to stop them enjoying not only this Star Wars movie, but any future ones. It's not perfect, but it is Star Wars, and it's a lot of fun. It sets a good foundation for the future and it expands on the existing Star Wars canon.

I'm just doing my best to avoid getting into the kind of nitpicking that it's easy to fall into as a big Star Wars fan - if we wanted to, we could pick apart any Star Wars story, including any of the OT films - but enjoying the film rather than picking it apart at every opportunity is a choice, just like suspension of disbelief, IMO.

I guess that's just a difference in our personal philosophies  I'm not a huge SW fan, my only experience with the franchise is through the movies, so I'm definitely not going to go into whatever the EU did or anything like that. I just want to watch a good film (and preferably even a great one) and a coherent, story with in-universe plausibility is essential to that. 

I'm very big on giving credit where credit is due. ANH rightly has a place in film history for helping to kickstart the age of the blockbuster. The ESB on the other hand is a brilliant film and therefore deserves a place in the canon of film. The FA on the other hand was just good and that's fine. It can and should be praised for that. It's better than most blockbusters nowadays (sadly faint praise) and I'm very glad that I was able to watch it on the big screen.

However, it could have been better (great even), if only the writing had made more sense. Making a faux-pas occassionally is okay, no property is perfect, but when you have a pretty big lists of things that were kind of wonky on a writinglevel, you just can't expect to become part of the "canon". Or to be lauded with huge accolades, beyond the fact that it was an enjoyable ride and effective at opening up the SW universe again. At least, that's the way I look at it. 

Plus, as an aside, what really irks me about the fact that the writing isn't up to snuff is that it's such a common problem. Pretty much every blockbuster is badly written, the occassional exception like Fury Road not withstanding. You would think that with all the money and know-how involved in making behemoth's like this, the writing would be the easiest part to get right, but somehow it almost never materializes (focus grouped to death probably). 

[ab aeterno]

I guess that's just a difference in our personal philosophies  I'm not a huge SW fan, my only experience with the franchise is through the movies, so I'm definitely not going to go into whatever the EU did or anything like that. I just want to watch a good film (and preferably even a great one) and a coherent, story with in-universe plausibility is essential to that. 

I'm very big on giving credit where credit is due. ANH rightly has a place in film history for helping to kickstart the age of the blockbuster. The ESB on the other hand is a brilliant film and therefore deserves a place in the canon of film. The FA on the other hand was just good and that's fine. It can and should be praised for that. It's better than most blockbusters nowadays (sadly faint praise) and I'm very glad that I was able to watch it on the big screen.

However, it could have been better (great even), if only the writing had made more sense. Making a faux-pas occassionally is okay, no property is perfect, but when you have a pretty big lists of things that were kind of wonky on a writinglevel, you just can't expect to become part of the "canon". Or to be lauded with huge accolades, beyond the fact that it was an enjoyable ride and effective at opening up the SW universe again. At least, that's the way I look at it. 

 

Yeah, I'm not saying it's revelatory, just that it's good and enjoyable, but that we'll suck all the joy out of it if we nitpick too much. Anyone who has had a "discussion" with someone intent of mocking/dismissing Star Wars knows how easy it is to do.

 

Plus, as an aside, what really irks me about the fact that the writing isn't up to snuff is that it's such a common problem. Pretty much every blockbuster is badly written, the occassional exception like Fury Road not withstanding. You would think that with all the money and know-how involved in making behemoth's like this, the writing would be the easiest part to get right, but somehow it almost never materializes (focus grouped to death probably). 

I love Fury Road, but if TFA makes ca. $2.4bn while Fury Road makes ca. $400m it's hard to blame them, I suppose.

[Corvinus85]

So I guess Daniel Craig really was in the movie. He was Stormtrooper that got mind tricked by Rey. Funny scene

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Haha. I knew I knew those faces but I couldn't quite put my finger on where in the moment, but I just saw someone point out that the second crew trying to ice Han in the freighter is the cast of The Raid.

Awesome.

PG,

What is "the Raid"?

[polishgenius]

PG,

What is "the Raid"?

An Indonesian movie that's possibly the greatest action film of modern times.

[Howdyphillip]

PG,

What is "the Raid"?

An Indonesian movie that's possibly the greatest action film of modern times.

I may even be so bold as to take out the word possibly in that sentence. If you haven't seen it yet Ser Scot, you are in for a treat. The Raid 2 was also a very good movie as well.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Again going into Plagueis-Snoke parallels, Plagueis was incredibly concerned when the Jedi discovered Anakin. He was feeling very threatened.
With Luke having the same potential as Anakin, then Plagueis feeling very concerned about him (more than the starkiller getting destroyed) makes sense. Maybe I am seeing things that aren't there though.

The Plagueis speculation about "Snoke" is interesting.  Particularly, in light of Palpatine's claim that Plagueis defeated death.  Perhaps what is shown is the cost of beating death.  That said how does Plagueis know of Anakin, wasn't he already dead or recovering from Palpatine's attempt to kill him?

[Kalbear]

My older kids watched it. They grew up with the prequels which they thought at the time were good.

They loved it to death.

My daughter asked an interesting question - was this better than fury road? I said Fury road is a better film, more consistent and more mature, but I enjoyed star wars a lot more.

[Corvinus85]

The Plagueis speculation about "Snoke" is interesting.  Particularly, in light of Palpatine's claim that Plagueis defeated death.  Perhaps what is shown is the cost of beating death.  That said how does Plagueis know of Anakin, wasn't he already dead or recovering from Palpatine's attempt to kill him?

One theory was that Plagueis created Anakin, which is why Palpatine paid attention to little Annie from the start. But that goes way too much into the midichlorians crap, so I'm not sure I want it to be true.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Corvinus,

The whole "virgin birth" stuff from TPM?

[scotcat]

I also thought Carrie Fisher looked good. It's not her fault that Ford looks 10-15 years younger than he should . Her performance was a bit off, but it didn't ruin anything for me (not that I'm always quick on the uptake wrt good acting). Frankly it's not like she was given a lot to work with either. I don't think it's fair to compare her to Ford because besides the fact that he really pulled it out of the bag, he had so much more of his own character, a familiar setting and other characters to use. I also found the scene where she tells Han her son is still alive to be really quite touching, although I would also have liked it if she'd become something of a hardass in her crochety old age

 

Basically.

[Fiddler]

I have not finished reading the whole thread yet, but wanted to add my thoughts.

HOLY SHIT I LOVED IT!!!

Yes it was highly derivative of the original.  Yes it played up the nostalgia angle.  Yes the "giant super weapon with one flaw" has been over done.

Yet, I found myself loving every minute of the move.

Ford was brilliant.  I thought he conveyed exactly what an old Han Solo would be like.  His interaction with everyone in the movie was great.  I especially loved his interaction with Leia.  So much emotion was passed between the two of them without words that it felt real.  I won't lie, even though I expected it, his death destroyed me.  Han Solo has been my favorite character in any medium throughout my entire life, so it still hurts a bit.  I liked the way the death was filmed (the sun going out at that moment) and leia's reaction were perfect.

Even though I have saw a lot of dislike for Kylo Ren's portrayal, I have to say I liked it.  IMO, he came across as a petulent child who was born to "celebrity parents" and took the wrong path.  He is trying to live up to the shadow cast by his parents, uncle and especially grandfather and he knows that he probably won't ever be able to.  From his cheesy helmet and mask (especially when compared to Vader's), his tantrums that he throws and the almost whiny way he appears when he takes his mask off, he shows how immature and lacking he actually is.  IMO I think he is meant to convey much more power and ability than he actually has.  It is why Finn is able to fight him for a bit and Ren is able to actually beat him.  He isn't actually as gifted as people think.

Ren was great, I thought.  I loved her interactions with BB and how she treated the droid basically like a person.  I'm definately in the camp that thinks she is Luke's daughter and may have had some training before he left.  Overall I thought the actress did a great job.

Finn was also great, IMO.  I really enjoyed his journey from faceless trooper to someone who believes in something.  His immediate connection with Poe Dameron (whom I actually thought would be revealed to be another child of Han and Leia), especially after the later gave him his name was great.  His need to protect Ren from the beginning and realizing he didn't need to was good.

Overall so many great scenes that my mind keeps flashing back to, but the one that sticks with me the most is actually one that Carrie Fisher pulled off.  Her reaction to Han's death was so well done, mainly because it seemed that she felt exactly the way I did at that moment.

Not going to give this movie a rating or anything, but I will just say thank you JJ.  Thank you for giving Han a worthy death.

[TheRevanchist]

The Plagueis speculation about "Snoke" is interesting.  Particularly, in light of Palpatine's claim that Plagueis defeated death.  Perhaps what is shown is the cost of beating death.  That said how does Plagueis know of Anakin, wasn't he already dead or recovering from Palpatine's attempt to kill him?

In old canon, he was still Palps' master during the events of A Phantom Menace. He was killed the same day Palps became Supreme Chancellor.

Anakin was created from the Force as a defense mechanism when Plagueis started using the Force directly to extend his life and to stop aging. Or maybe was created from Plagueis while he was doing so.

[polishgenius]

In old canon, he was still Palps' master during the events of A Phantom Menace. He was killed the same day Palps became Supreme Chancellor.

I haven't read the sequence where that's said, but it doesn't really make sense if they were following the Rule of Two, does it?

[Talleyrand]

I enjoyed it, yeah it could have been better and there a few noticeable flaws but for me SW has never been about a being a masterpiece of cinema just a really fun Space Opera, which it was.

It was full of funny moments, Ren was great the fight in the forest at the end, Chewie going a bit berserk and the shot of Poe being a badass pilot on the second planet was awesome.

 

I don't really get the complaints about apparently anyone just being able to pick up a lightsabre and be a master with it. Finn was just swinging it around like a club and got beasted by both the stormtrooper with the baton and Kylo (who was wounded).

Rey had already been shown using a melee weapon and it wasn't like she was doing any flips or throwing it or any super force moves.

 

Biggest complaint is that they had the Raid trio in it and didn't even let them fight anyone.

[mormont]

Rey and (Kylo) Ren are two different characters: people seem to be confusing them.

ETA - easily done, of course!

[TheRevanchist]

 

I haven't read the sequence where that's said, but it doesn't really make sense if they were following the Rule of Two, does it?

Maul was an illegal apprentice. It was common - according to EU - for the Sith apprentice to get an apprentice when he is planning to make the move in his master.

Also, the Rule of Two isn't set in stones. In fact, for the most part of the history, there wasn't a rule of two. And a Sith can decide to change it if he wants. After all, who is to stop him from doing so.

[ab aeterno]

Maul was an illegal apprentice. It was common - according to EU - for the Sith apprentice to get an apprentice when he is planning to make the move in his master.
Also, the Rule of Two isn't set in stones. In fact, for the most part of the history, there wasn't a rule of two. And a Sith can decide to change it if he wants. After all, who is to stop him from doing so.

I was never a fan of the Rule of Two. It sounds cool, but it makes no sense and never worked. I mean, yeah, sure, this way the Sith Lord knew who was going betray him, but then got betrayed and killed anyway.

[TheRevanchist]

I was never a fan of the Rule of Two. It sounds cool, but it makes no sense and never worked. I mean, yeah, sure, this way the Sith Lord knew who was going betray him, but then got betrayed and killed anyway.

Yep, and if the Sith master dies without having an apprentice (for example Palps dying in that ship after Anakin killed Dooku), the Sith order is over.

It is too risky to exist in practice.