Star Wars Episode VII THE SPOILERS AWAKEN

[Rhom]

 I don't know why I even bothered to check in here... I just watched an amazing Star Wars movie, and it seems that there is page after page of people doing their best to shit on it. Well, I just got home from watching it, and I absolutely know that this movie was a winner by any stretch of the imagination. If Disney keeps this up, I will gladly go see a Star Wars movie or two every year for the rest of my life.

 I'll chime back in here later, but just know if you are complaining about this movie, you are wrong. 

I read through seven pages of commentary and when I got to this... I agreed so much that I skipped the next two pages to go ahead and share my thoughts.

It was amazing and everything the PT could have been.  Sure there's some derivative stuff in there... but this is Star Wars.  Its all derivative!  Sure I could pick nits, but overall the movie works and the acting was great.  The fights were visceral.  You could feel the rage pouring from them as they fought much like Luke in RotJ. 

I came out of the movie talking to my friends about "So where do we go from here?'  We were kicking around, does it pick up immediately in EpVIII with Luke and Rey on the cliff?  Are we a couple years down the road after some serious force training?  What is Finn's role from here out?

And then it hit me... picture one of the side movies featuring Poe and Finn like a buddy cop flick.  You could practically make it Lethal Weapon in space.  Poe walking around wise cracking like Mel Gibson while Finn constantly mutters "I'm getting too old for this shit." 

I will say this about the ending, I know Luke had to be in it... but I almost think I would have preferred if the movie had ended with the Falcon jumping to hyperspace and leaving it at that. 

Speaking of the Falcon, I think a moment was missed at the end there where Chewie and Rey could have both gone to sit in the pilot's seat with Chewie looking at her and then sitting down in his usual spot at co-pilot. 

[The Human Abstract]

But wasn't there talk among the evil guys about clone troopers and stuff? Could be that I misremember and they were complaining that clones were better at being programmed and stuff...?

That talk was specifically there to establish to the audience that Finn was not a clone and that not all stormtroopers are clones.  

[dooog]

That talk was specifically there to establish to the audience that Finn was not a clone and that not all stormtroopers are clones.  

Yep. The First Order is basically the Hitler youth when it comes to storm troopers

[The Human Abstract]

They reminded me of the Unsullied, but you know... way LESS over the top.

[Red Tiger]

When Hux was giving that speech, I thought "oh man, I think this is gonna hit close to home for Germany". I know the previous Star Wars films had heavy Nazi symbolism, but this one takes the cake. Which I love, as I despise PC bullshit.

[Arataniello]

So on Ren's "I will finish what you [Vader] started" line - it was clear that he has his own agenda at play in finding Luke beyond that of Snoke who would have been satisfied with Luke just staying hidden.  Either he has an accurate view of Vader, which given Luke was training him is at least possible - recount stories of how Dad fell to the dark as a cautionary tale to try prevent your nephew from doing the same - or he doesn't, in which case his beliefs around Vader may be inventions of Snoke. If the former, what exactly was Vader trying to do in a concrete way that could be accomplished by his grandson? Taking power doesn't really fit as that's an individual thing. Given his desperation to find his Uncle, and what he believes about the Force given his view of the Light as corruption, my wild theory is that he wants to turn Luke not kill him.  Killing Han was just to fight the corruption of the Light and end that pull on him.

Finishing what Vader started could also refer to bringing balance to the Force again.  

Given what we are briefly told about Luke's failed attempts to train a new generation of Jedi, it would appear that the Force is currently not 'in balance' - no Jedi Force-users active, and Kylo Ren using the dark side without completing his training.

[Arataniello]

But wasn't there talk among the evil guys about clone troopers and stuff? Could be that I misremember and they were complaining that clones were better at being programmed and stuff...?

One of the stormtroopers that talked to Ren during the hunt for Rey on Starkiller base seemed to have a females voice.  More evidence of lack of clone homogeny amongst the stormtroopers.

[The Human Abstract]

Finishing what Vader started could also refer to bringing balance to the Force again.  

Given what we are briefly told about Luke's failed attempts to train a new generation of Jedi, it would appear that the Force is currently not 'in balance' - no Jedi Force-users active, and Kylo Ren using the dark side without completing his training.

I suppose this is an ancillary next level Star Wars discussion, but I don't think that "balance" in the force means equal balance between good and evil.  Because that would just be ridiculous.  Really?  We need a Hitler for every Gandhi?  The world needs bad guys?  Does it?

 

According to the original creators, the dark side *is* the unbalance in the force.  The force is about life energy and creation and the darkness pulls away from it.  It is the darkness that is unbalance and antithetical to what the force is.  

 

So I just remember this being asked way back then and this was the response.  Otherwise, how does Luke bring balance by defeating the only 2 hardcore dark siders?

[dooog]

I suppose this is an ancillary next level Star Wars discussion, but I don't think that "balance" in the force means equal balance between good and evil.  Because that would just be ridiculous.  Really?  We need a Hitler for every Gandhi?  The world needs bad guys?  Does it?

 

According to the original creators, the dark side *is* the unbalance in the force.  The force is about life energy and creation and the darkness pulls away from it.  It is the darkness that is unbalance and antithetical to what the force is.  

 

So I just remember this being asked way back then and this was the response.  Otherwise, how does Luke bring balance by defeating the only 2 hardcore dark siders?

But then that begs the question... why did Qui-Gon and Obi Wan insist that young annoying Annakin was the "chosen" one who was prophesied to bring balance to force, considering that the Jedi thought the Sith were extinct

[ab aeterno]

Well, if you consider this version of a continuation of Star Wars a very good story, you are welcome to it.

I for one won't 'move' to this new continuity in any meaningful sense. Yes, I most likely will watch the new movies, but I see no reason to spend money or effort to buy, read, or learn anything about this new stuff, and I most certainly won't invest any emotion in all of that. I'm an old man now, and I've better things to do than to actually make an effort to get accustomed to this new 'canon'.

That's your choice then. Times change. You can either move with them or be left behind.

It's kinda similar to Fallout and the NMA guys, in some ways. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to accept the new canon, but you can't hold back the tide.

But that is not really the issue with the new movie. I actually expected a (reasonably) bad sequel to the OT. I did not expect to see another version of ANH - and most likely a new version of the OT in the trilogy - when I watched this movie. I honestly thought since they were not making a reboot they would actually have a new story to tell.

Star Wars has always been cyclical, and the EU was as well. That's why we had a continuing procession of evil superweapons, Palpatine clones, Han and Leia's son turning to the dark side and becoming a new villain, an imperial remnant growing out of the ashes of the Empire, etc.

 

Yep, rehashing the same points again I know, but Ren never really displays any sort of exceptional skills with a lightsaber, and his own training would have been incomplete too. That's the reason I enjoyed him so much as a villain - they didn't try to make him crazy powerful. They made him realistic - a conflicted, partially trained individual who wants so desperately to be seen as something more than he is

I loved Ren, for these reasons. He's much more of an EU/KotoR style dark sider, IMO. Conflicted, insecure, prone to outbursts of rage, etc. 

Speaking of Hux, Linda noted that all the First Order seemed quite young compared to their counterparts in the OT. Assuming that is deliberate, it's another sign of the First Order being sort of a cult formed in emulation of the Empire and not actually a direct splinter of it. "Supreme Leader" Snoke (terrible name, I agree) may have co-opted the accoutrements of the Empire to draw in people... and may also have built up his forces by indoctrinating children rather than recruiting adults.

That was definitely what stood out to me about the First Order. They're pretty much all people who look as though they were either born after the Battle of Endor or shortly before it. They presumably grew up being taught about how these crazy radicals killed thousands of people and sowed chaos and war across the Empire. They're a counter-revolution of sorts.

But then that begs the question... why did Qui-Gon and Obi Wan insist that young annoying Annakin was the "chosen" one who was prophesied to bring balance to force, considering that the Jedi thought the Sith were extinct

The Jedi view the Light Side as being the balance, it seems. The light represents peace and harmony, and from their point of view, if everything is peaceful and harmonious, the galaxy is in balance. Of course, that depends greatly on their own point of view. 

Also, just finished my second viewing: Enjoyed it even more the second time around, and the things that bothered me the first time, didn't bother me as much.

 

 

[Kalbear]

I loved it. The debate I had with my wife was whether it was the best star wars movie or merely just as good as tesb.

Not hyperbole. Absolutely loved it. It absolutely had flaws. That doesn't make it a bad movie.

[Howdyphillip]

 

Speaking of the Falcon, I think a moment was missed at the end there where Chewie and Rey could have both gone to sit in the pilot's seat with Chewie looking at her and then sitting down in his usual spot at co-pilot. 

 

 You know that moment is coming up.I actually tear up thinking about it. Even though looking back retrospectively, it makes all of the sense in the world to include the death of Han Solo in this film, I just could not bring myself to believe it until I actually saw it happen on screen. I had convinced myself that it was going to be Chewie that would be leaving in this movie. 

 On another note, Disney did exactly what I preferred for this movie and did not try to reinvent the wheel. Star Wars, at its core is a tale of good vs evil. George Lucas tried his best to subvert this with the prequels and most people say that he failed in doing so. This was precisely the movie that was needed. It is new enough that we as older viewers can keep engaged in the story line, yet still tells the same tale that made the original such a pillar of our culture. 

 The only complaint that I have about the entire experience is that two large popcorns and two large cokes costs $32. I paid up, because it would have been a crime to not eat popcorn while watching this movie. 

edited to say...

When Han Solo called Kylo Ren by his given name of Ben, it may have been one of the most touching moments for me in movie history. They named him after Obi Wan's most human side. Benjamin, in Hebrew, also means son of my right hand

[mcbigski]

It would have been better if they made Greg Grunberg's character part of the Porkins clan.

[red snow]

I think while there are comparisons to be made between ANH and TFA it's hyperbole to claim it's akin to being a remake or clone of the ANH. ROTJ has almost as much in common, plot wise (just jumbled up a bit).

Having similar plot elements does not make it the same film. I could not say I was able to predict the course of the entire film once I knew what game they were playing (although I strongly suspected Han would die and the weapon would be destroyed). If Luke had turned up earlier, I'd have pegged him for death. What aspect of the new characters was really just ANH rehashed? I don't recall a renegade stormtrooper from the film. Poe Dameron was maybe a fleshed out Wedge but that in itself meant he wasn't a rip off.

I'm not arguing whether people hated it or not but I do wonder if there'd have been any film that would have met their personal criteria of what the film should be. Those are high expectations and assume that whatever our "perfect star wars film" would be is one that most other people would love too.

[Nictarion]

I loved it. The debate I had with my wife was whether it was the best star wars movie or merely just as good as tesb.

 

Not hyperbole. Absolutely loved it. It absolutely had flaws. That doesn't make it a bad movie.

I still rank ESB as my #1, but I think FA has the best acting in the franchise tbh. 

[Nictarion]

Howdy, I loved Ren's real name being Ben as well. 

[ab aeterno]

I still rank ESB as my #1, but I think FA has the best acting in the franchise tbh. 

Not that this was a particularly great challenge, to be fair.

 

[Nictarion]

True, but for a couple of newcomers to have the best acting in a franchise with Ser Alec Guinness, Christopher Lee, and some pretty heavyweight actors, it's impressive. Then again, JJ is also probably a better director. At least better than Lucas. Again, not the the highest bar to set.  

[Mark Antony]

I still rank ESB as my #1, but I think FA has the best acting in the franchise tbh. 

Hamills best performance  

[HexMachina]

So on Ren's "I will finish what you [Vader] started" line - it was clear that he has his own agenda at play in finding Luke beyond that of Snoke who would have been satisfied with Luke just staying hidden.  Either he has an accurate view of Vader, which given Luke was training him is at least possible - recount stories of how Dad fell to the dark as a cautionary tale to try prevent your nephew from doing the same - or he doesn't, in which case his beliefs around Vader may be inventions of Snoke. If the former, what exactly was Vader trying to do in a concrete way that could be accomplished by his grandson? Taking power doesn't really fit as that's an individual thing. Given his desperation to find his Uncle, and what he believes about the Force given his view of the Light as corruption, my wild theory is that he wants to turn Luke not kill him.  Killing Han was just to fight the corruption of the Light and end that pull on him.

If it's the former maybe something about escaping death/prolonging life? Kind of grasping here I don't really know (although what Aranteillo says makes sense)

I still rank ESB as my #1, but I think FA has the best acting in the franchise tbh. 

I know everyone seems to be praising Ford most (and yeah I though he was brilliant) but for me it was all about Diasy Ridley :wub: