Who will be Sansa's final husband?

[purple-eyes]

I'm a woman and in complete disagreement; the guy has a very tender and nice side to him too.  In his setting, not the 21st century, not many men would spare Sansa from the bedding ceremony or consummation either.  Also, even when he is with whores it seems that he is able to not only fall in love with them but be faithful to them; this to me is not a misogynist's way.  Okay, yes there are two things he does that are questionable or highly so, the brothel episode in Essos and raping Tysha (undoubtedly terrified of his father).  He is not whiter than white but I honestly don't totally get why he is so terrible to women.  In fact I think if anyone gave him genuine love he would reciprocate very generously indeed and not just with coin.  I sometimes feels as if us readers appear to be reading different books here but hey debate is great.

i think sansa knew he is a good-natured guy, but the problem is that he is a dwarf and also ugly and also had only half nose. 

So this is a big no no for Sansa and most of the noble women in the universe for whole life marriage. 

let us be frank, even he is a very good guy in heart, still many women would feel reluctant to marry him. 

 

[Morgana Lannister]

i think sansa knew he is a good-natured guy, but the problem is that he is a dwarf and also ugly and also had only half nose. 

So this is a big no no for Sansa and most of the noble women in the universe for whole life marriage. 

let us be frank, even he is a very good guy in heart, still many women would feel reluctant to marry him. 

 

I agreee, plus the fact that he is a Lannister he can't get herself to trust, even when he has only been kind to her.  She cannot possibly know if he is planted by Cersei etc in some way to trick her, that adds to it too.  Personally, I would be more than willing to invite him to a dinner party; he is funny and witty and yes, his nature is not totally pure and great, by mainly good.

[Impbread]

I'm a woman and in complete disagreement; the guy has a very tender and nice side to him too.  In his setting, not the 21st century, not many men would spare Sansa from the bedding ceremony or consummation either.  Also, even when he is with whores it seems that he is able to not only fall in love with them but be faithful to them; this to me is not a misogynist's way.  Okay, yes there are two things he does that are questionable or highly so, the brothel episode in Essos and raping Tysha (undoubtedly terrified of his father).  He is not whiter than white but I honestly don't totally get why he is so terrible to women.  In fact I think if anyone gave him genuine love he would reciprocate very generously indeed and not just with coin.  I sometimes feels as if us readers appear to be reading different books here but hey debate is great.

Agree. Tyrion is a good guy just misunderstood.When he was acting hand of king all he wanted was to take care of Shae and keep her safe. If he was a pile of shit he would have just thrown her away and had a new woman whenever he wanted. He just wants to be loved so badly. Tysha was not raped. She was payed for every man that had her and Tyrion had to pay more because Lannisters are worth more. IIRCC.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I'm a woman and in complete disagreement; the guy has a very tender and nice side to him too.  In his setting, not the 21st century, not many men would spare Sansa from the bedding ceremony or consummation either.  Also, even when he is with whores it seems that he is able to not only fall in love with them but be faithful to them; this to me is not a misogynist.  Okay, yes there are two things he does that are questionable or highly so, the brothel episode in Essos and raping Tysha (undoubtedly terrified of his father).  He is not whiter than white but I honestly don't totally get why he is so terrible to women.  In fact I think if anyone gave him genuine love he would reciprocate very generously indeed and not just with coin.  I sometimes feels as if us readers appear to be reading different books here but hey debate is great.

You are not a woman *in the series*. You are a woman who is seeing Tyrion almost entirely from his own point of view, which obviously is going to skew sympathetic. 

Women in the series that Tyrion encounters:

Tysha - when he's told she is a prostitute he's ok with her getting gang raped and in fact is so turned on he can't prevent himself from participating (if you think he did it under threat go back and re-read. "My cock betrayed me.") Sees himself as the main victim of that incident. 

Catelyn - couldn't say a non-smartass word to her the whole time, *literally to save his life*

Shae - makes an explicitly "material comforts for sex and flattery" business deal with her, never once asks her about her own feelings or even thoughts, is dismissive and violent to/around her, murders her because she never reciprocated his secret feelings and did what she had to do

Sansa - objects to Joffrey beating the shit out of her, refrains from raping her, but feels mopey and rejected because she won't confide all of her feelings to him and is oh so oppressed and put out that she doesn't willingly want to have sex with him. Does not occur to him to actively help her in any way. Notably, this shining height of Tyrion's behavior with women occurs with a highborn girl he has zero baggage with. However, as things stand now they *do* have baggage, i.e. he sees her as having bailed and left him for dead. So a future meeting between them is likely not going to go well. 

Cercei - comes into King's Landing, gives zero shits that she's the queen, undermines her at every point, takes advantage of a bonding moment between them to poison her, has his mind blown by the fleeting thought that she might have feelings, secretly arranges her daughter's betrothal, kidnaps and threatens to rape & murder her son, yet sees Cercei's holding hostage of a prostitute as unforgivably monstrous

Servant at Illyrio's - manages to grossly sexually harass her *despite the fact that she's literally there to have sex with him*. Gets kicks out of threatening her until she is actually afraid. 

Septa Lemore - is not able to say two words to her without throwing in some sexual harassment, even though he basically likes her. 

slave prostitute: luckily everyone seems to realize everything wrong with this

Penny - Is a pile of shit to her despite almost immediately realizing the pitiable position she's in. Eventually through herculean effort manages to only be about 70% asshole to her and is given all kinds of "redemption arc" cookies for this. 

 

I'm not saying there aren't worse men in ASOIAF. Obviously there are. But Tyrion and Tyrion fans see him as basically a good guy...which he ain't. I totally get why, but that doesn't change the facts. 

At this point I don't think he would know "true love" if it bit him in the face. Tyrion might manage to redeem himself, but no woman is going to do that job for him. 

 

 

[LongRider]

~~~~~snip~~~~~

I'm not saying there aren't worse men in ASOIAF. Obviously there are. But Tyrion and Tyrion fans see him as basically a good guy...which he ain't. I totally get why, but that doesn't change the facts. 

At this point I don't think he would know "true love" if it bit him in the face. Tyrion might manage to redeem himself, but no woman is going to do that job for him. 

 

 

Agreed, plus Sansa is certainly not obligated to redeem Tyrion in any way.

[Nevets]

You are not a woman *in the series*. You are a woman who is seeing Tyrion almost entirely from his own point of view, which obviously is going to skew sympathetic. 

Women in the series that Tyrion encounters:

Tysha - when he's told she is a prostitute he's ok with her getting gang raped and in fact is so turned on he can't prevent himself from participating (if you think he did it under threat go back and re-read. "My cock betrayed me.") Sees himself as the main victim of that incident. 

Catelyn - couldn't say a non-smartass word to her the whole time, *literally to save his life*

Shae - makes an explicitly "material comforts for sex and flattery" business deal with her, never once asks her about her own feelings or even thoughts, is dismissive and violent to/around her, murders her because she never reciprocated his secret feelings and did what she had to do

Sansa - objects to Joffrey beating the shit out of her, refrains from raping her, but feels mopey and rejected because she won't confide all of her feelings to him and is oh so oppressed and put out that she doesn't willingly want to have sex with him. Does not occur to him to actively help her in any way. Notably, this shining height of Tyrion's behavior with women occurs with a highborn girl he has zero baggage with. However, as things stand now they *do* have baggage, i.e. he sees her as having bailed and left him for dead. So a future meeting between them is likely not going to go well. 

Cercei - comes into King's Landing, gives zero shits that she's the queen, undermines her at every point, takes advantage of a bonding moment between them to poison her, has his mind blown by the fleeting thought that she might have feelings, secretly arranges her daughter's betrothal, kidnaps and threatens to rape & murder her son, yet sees Cercei's holding hostage of a prostitute as unforgivably monstrous

Servant at Illyrio's - manages to grossly sexually harass her *despite the fact that she's literally there to have sex with him*. Gets kicks out of threatening her until she is actually afraid. 

Septa Lemore - is not able to say two words to her without throwing in some sexual harassment, even though he basically likes her. 

slave prostitute: luckily everyone seems to realize everything wrong with this

Penny - Is a pile of shit to her despite almost immediately realizing the pitiable position she's in. Eventually through herculean effort manages to only be about 70% asshole to her and is given all kinds of "redemption arc" cookies for this. 

 

I'm not saying there aren't worse men in ASOIAF. Obviously there are. But Tyrion and Tyrion fans see him as basically a good guy...which he ain't. I totally get why, but that doesn't change the facts. 

At this point I don't think he would know "true love" if it bit him in the face. Tyrion might manage to redeem himself, but no woman is going to do that job for him. 

 

 

I'm going to barge in even though I probably shouldn't.

Tysha - Both of them are victims, and I think he realizes that.  I got the impression that the realization she was a local girl, and therefore even more of a victim was the reason he went after Tywin.

Catelyn - She kidnapped him.  I don't expect him to be nice to her.  Especially since he really hadn't done anything wrong.

Shae - He was concerned Tywin would execute her.  Tried to keep her safe.  Murdered her after she perjured herself about him and Sansa.  We don't if she had to or if it was to advance herself.

Sansa -  He treatedf her with considerable kindness, but due to the enmity between their families and the circumstances of their marriage, it was never going to work at the time.

Cersei - Cersei needed undermining.  She is awful.  His threats about Tommen were a tactic to try and protect Shae.  Unsuccessful, though.

His stuff in Essos I don't like, but I think he was pretty messed up by then.  I'm out of time so have to go.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I'm going to barge in even though I probably shouldn't.

Tysha - Both of them are victims, and I think he realizes that.  I got the impression that the realization she was a local girl, and therefore even more of a victim was the reason he went after Tywin.

Catelyn - She kidnapped him.  I don't expect him to be nice to her.  Especially since he really hadn't done anything wrong.

Shae - He was concerned Tywin would execute her.  Tried to keep her safe.  Murdered her after she perjured herself about him and Sansa.  We don't if she had to or if it was to advance herself.

Sansa -  He treatedf her with considerable kindness, but due to the enmity between their families and the circumstances of their marriage, it was never going to work at the time.

Cersei - Cersei needed undermining.  She is awful.  His threats about Tommen were a tactic to try and protect Shae.  Unsuccessful, though.

His stuff in Essos I don't like, but I think he was pretty messed up by then.  I'm out of time so have to go.

Ya'll Tyrion fans are cute. Think what you want, I've said my piece. 

[Morgana Lannister]

You are not a woman *in the series*. You are a woman who is seeing Tyrion almost entirely from his own point of view, which obviously is going to skew sympathetic. 

Women in the series that Tyrion encounters:

Tysha - when he's told she is a prostitute he's ok with her getting gang raped and in fact is so turned on he can't prevent himself from participating (if you think he did it under threat go back and re-read. "My cock betrayed me.") Sees himself as the main victim of that incident. 

Catelyn - couldn't say a non-smartass word to her the whole time, *literally to save his life*

Shae - makes an explicitly "material comforts for sex and flattery" business deal with her, never once asks her about her own feelings or even thoughts, is dismissive and violent to/around her, murders her because she never reciprocated his secret feelings and did what she had to do

Sansa - objects to Joffrey beating the shit out of her, refrains from raping her, but feels mopey and rejected because she won't confide all of her feelings to him and is oh so oppressed and put out that she doesn't willingly want to have sex with him. Does not occur to him to actively help her in any way. Notably, this shining height of Tyrion's behavior with women occurs with a highborn girl he has zero baggage with. However, as things stand now they *do* have baggage, i.e. he sees her as having bailed and left him for dead. So a future meeting between them is likely not going to go well. 

Cercei - comes into King's Landing, gives zero shits that she's the queen, undermines her at every point, takes advantage of a bonding moment between them to poison her, has his mind blown by the fleeting thought that she might have feelings, secretly arranges her daughter's betrothal, kidnaps and threatens to rape & murder her son, yet sees Cercei's holding hostage of a prostitute as unforgivably monstrous

Servant at Illyrio's - manages to grossly sexually harass her *despite the fact that she's literally there to have sex with him*. Gets kicks out of threatening her until she is actually afraid. 

Septa Lemore - is not able to say two words to her without throwing in some sexual harassment, even though he basically likes her. 

slave prostitute: luckily everyone seems to realize everything wrong with this

Penny - Is a pile of shit to her despite almost immediately realizing the pitiable position she's in. Eventually through herculean effort manages to only be about 70% asshole to her and is given all kinds of "redemption arc" cookies for this. 

 

I'm not saying there aren't worse men in ASOIAF. Obviously there are. But Tyrion and Tyrion fans see him as basically a good guy...which he ain't. I totally get why, but that doesn't change the facts. 

At this point I don't think he would know "true love" if it bit him in the face. Tyrion might manage to redeem himself, but no woman is going to do that job for him. 

 

 

Well, I think what we got here is a reader who is perhaps too fond of Tyrion (or identifies with him in some level), i.e. me and one who finds the opposite.  So, I am bound to find his best traits and you his worst and we will clearly never be in agreement on this.  Whether our personalities, backgrounds or experiences in real life play a part is hard to say without knowing each other but I will try to answer your points best I can.

His Point of View - Granted he is a major point of view character hence we see a lot through him but also through others, many of them do not like him or trust him and I have already posted to the effect that I don't take his assumptions or views as a given  in relation to specific issues.

Tysha - He went as far as doing something he knew full well would enrage his father out of love (marrying her), foolish yes.  Now, if your boyfriend/partner whatever was revealed to have been paid to pretend his love for you how happy would you be?  That plus Tywin's presence and the fear that I am sure Tyrion felt re his father.  His member betrayed him, okay, fine, he had fancied her badly, it's a human nature response (and arousal is not entirely intentional although sure it can be controlled).  Had he been an invincible hero with indisputable courage he might had opposed his father and face the consequences.  He wasn't that brave.  I think the issue here is not so much that he gave up on her because she considered prostitutes lesser beings but because he felt betrayed.

Catelyn - This comes as a surprise because he certainly wasn't chatting her up.  IMHO just making light of a very serious situation whilst trying to work out how to get out of paying with his life with crimes he hadn't committed.

Shae - If you are of the opinion that prostitution is always abusive towards the prostitute, fine.  However, he falls madly in love with her to the point of even killing to keep her safe (the singer) - not saying that I approve of that killing though- she stands up to him more often than not, and rightly so.  They become lovers no matter who pays.  At times she seems more preoccupied with her silks and jewels than his well being (to me that was foreshadowing) then, okay, some may say under duress, testified against him, makes things up that would ensure his head comes off lol  Under duress or not, noone but her could have known little silly names they used in their intimacy like "Giant of Lannister."  The guy had been betrayed by everyone he knew and/or cared about, he lost the plot!  I think George did this to prove that noone is invincible or can forever laugh at his/her own misfortune and of course to start on a Count of Montecristo style plot.  As for their deal; well, would she had fared better as a camp follower?  I am sure prostitution is not a line of work most of us would like or chose and I would like to have seen more background to this character but there she was in need of that sort of work and he was there too:  rich, generous and willing to make the most of it emotionally for both.  He didn't lie to her and promise he would marry her one day, she knew the score.  To me he was her victim, not the other way around.  Also, he does talk to her a fair deal and confides on her and when is he abusive and/or violent to her??? [prior to murdering her of course]

Sansa - He expected she wasn't going to be glad about their marriage.  He liked her, he desired although he tried to put those notions out of his mind (and never act upon them despite pressure and ridicule).  He mopped.  Fine.  None of us like rejection so we might mop but he really tried to talk to her, reach out to her even after she refused to kneel at the wedding.  He is completely chivalrous with her.  Now, yes, after she suddenly disappeared at a key point in the story that incriminates in yet another murder he had not committed, he is bound to be mistrusting (just as I accept she mistrusts him for being a Lannister).  However, he later reflects that she couldn't have acted alone.  As for what is to come, well we can all theorise and we shall see...  I wouldn't gamble my life on any specific outcome on any of the outstanding plots.

Cersei - Wow, this is another surprise.  The woman is corrupt and incapable of holding the kingdom together.  He does the job to the best of his ability.  She might be queen but to him is not about status is about ruling best he can, as his father had commanded him.  Even Tywin was a better ruler than Cersei.  Also Cersei has despised him from birth, blaming him for their mother's death lol and, okay, he didn't know it them but was even physically abusive to him as a baby.  The "poisoning" episode was very silly and immature I grant you but certainly not fatal and a joke in essence.  Not saying that we should all go giving laxatives to people we don't like but hey no harm came of it.  Cersei was carving her own ruin and that of her family with her intrigues and overindulgence with her son.  I would have been a lot harsher than Tyrion and more sly....

Illyrio's Servant - I will grant you that but he was at the very lowest point in his life and I think this and the episode in the brothel afterwards are put into the story to show us just how damn broken he is at this point but point taken, not acceptable behaviour.

Septa Lemore - flirtation that she does not appear to object to in any way.  More banter than action.  I would never see this as harassment in real life if I was contributing to the flirtation myself or finding it amusing and not expressing horror lol  Actually I was hoping to see more development between those two as she seemed older and perhaps someone able to ground him a bit.

Slave Prostitue - You are right, as per Illyrio's servant.  Granted.

Penny - IMHO sweetest but most stupidly naive character I am yet to encounter in the series.  He cares for her, hence he is stupidly protecting her from some of the hard truths (which I believe is a mistake on his part) like the lions et al.  She seems to have taken a fancy to him but he does not exploit it at all.  He doesn't see her as shit, simply she is just way too young in her mind and naive for him but he does try to help her.  He is patronising and paternal, granted but he does care for her.

Now, I find it interesting, although you did say no woman in ASOIF world, not people generally, could ever like this character much, to me the worse things he does in the series are not directed at women (apart from killing Shae in a rage).  One would be killing his father (nasty as he was) and the other setting the Blackwater on fire (although without it the city would have been sacked).  I just feel, with all due respect that this takes a very feminist view on things and also that things are viewed from the perspective of our values as women in the 21st century.

[Morgana Lannister]

Agreed, plus Sansa is certainly not obligated to redeem Tyrion in any way.

lol indeed no; no one ever is.  Whether it will happen or not is another matter and totally up to George, but my point is that it could be written convincingly by him if he wished to do so

 

[RezBarbie24]

Well, on this point I have read a lot and get the feeling that we readers are fairly polarised on this.  I think he is only terrible to women when he is having a sort of nervous breakdown, and not particularly feeling kind towards men either.  Now the Penny situation, okay he doesn't fancy her but he was always a bit wary of people he considered weaker than him or in a lesser position of power.  His regard for her is more that of a family member, say (or that is how I read it).  Okay, granted he is full of self-pity and he has been spoiled in terms of being able to buy whatever he wants with coin (including beautiful women for a time) but what I feel re Penny is that she is so darn naive that it verges on the ridiculous and he needs someone who is a match to his intellectual agility.  Not saying that Penny is stupid but she acts way, way too young for her age.  Sansa appears to be learning to play the game whereas I think Penny will probably be killed off somehow because, okay any progression is possible, but if slavery didn't take her out of her almost happy acceptance and submission I am not sure if anything would.  Granted, she had courage when she tried to attack Tyrion on their first encounter but all she has known is family love (as opposed to him) and the need for it.  She has learned to basically keep her her down and be a little good girl who makes people laugh to survive.  Tyrion is just very different from her and I think this is the main reason why he couldn't ever be attracted to her as a partner but just my two cents.

Have you read or heard of the theory that Penny is actually his daughter?

I first became aware of this theory via Tony Teflon's YouTube channel... I apologize that I don't have a link, but it said some things that stand out about Penny's life history that went right over my head (which is what makes rereading so much fun... Feeling like a dumb ass [emoji12] Lol) So I'd Google it if you're interested!

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Well, I think what we got here is a reader who is perhaps too fond of Tyrion (or identifies with him in some level), i.e. me and one who finds the opposite.  So, I am bound to find his best traits and you his worst and we will clearly never be in agreement on this.  Whether our personalities, backgrounds or experiences in real life play a part is hard to say without knowing each other but I will try to answer your points best I can.

His Point of View - Granted he is a major point of view character hence we see a lot through him but also through others, many of them do not like him or trust him and I have already posted to the effect that I don't take his assumptions or views as a given  in relation to specific issues.

Tysha - He went as far as doing something he knew full well would enrage his father out of love (marrying her), foolish yes.  Now, if your boyfriend/partner whatever was revealed to have been paid to pretend his love for you how happy would you be?  That plus Tywin's presence and the fear that I am sure Tyrion felt re his father.  His member betrayed him, okay, fine, he had fancied her badly, it's a human nature response (and arousal is not entirely intentional although sure it can be controlled).  Had he been an invincible hero with indisputable courage he might had opposed his father and face the consequences.  He wasn't that brave.  I think the issue here is not so much that he gave up on her because she considered prostitutes lesser beings but because he felt betrayed.

Good lord, woman. Really? Teen Tyrion is turned on by the gang rape of someone he supposedly cared for and this is your takeaway? I've met Tyrion fans before but not quite on your level. 

One last time, with no trace of love or tenderness remaining. “So you will remember her as she truly is,” he said, and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid.

Not out of fear. Out of arousal. *After* she's been raped by the whole garrison already. He's aroused. 

Catelyn - This comes as a surprise because he certainly wasn't chatting her up.  IMHO just making light of a very serious situation whilst trying to work out how to get out of paying with his life with crimes he hadn't committed.

Mmkay. You might want to go do a re-read there. 

Shae - If you are of the opinion that prostitution is always abusive towards the prostitute, fine.  However, he falls madly in love with her to the point of even killing to keep her safe (the singer) - not saying that I approve of that killing though- she stands up to him more often than not, and rightly so.  They become lovers no matter who pays.  At times she seems more preoccupied with her silks and jewels than his well being (to me that was foreshadowing) then, okay, some may say under duress, testified against him, makes things up that would ensure his head comes off lol  Under duress or not, noone but her could have known little silly names they used in their intimacy like "Giant of Lannister."  The guy had been betrayed by everyone he knew and/or cared about, he lost the plot!  I think George did this to prove that noone is invincible or can forever laugh at his/her own misfortune and of course to start on a Count of Montecristo style plot.  As for their deal; well, would she had fared better as a camp follower?  I am sure prostitution is not a line of work most of us would like or chose and I would like to have seen more background to this character but there she was in need of that sort of work and he was there too:  rich, generous and willing to make the most of it emotionally for both.  He didn't lie to her and promise he would marry her one day, she knew the score.  To me he was her victim, not the other way around.  Also, he does talk to her a fair deal and confides on her and when is he abusive and/or violent to her??? [prior to murdering her of course]

Please go back and read Tyrion's scenes with Shae. Ask yourself whether Tyrion genuinely cares about Shae or simply feels possessive of her. Does he demonstrate a pursuit of Shae's best interest or is he keeping her close/safe like a valuable possession?

This is a particularly telling passage:

“Varys,” he said. “I need to bring Shae into the castle without Cersei becoming aware.” Briefly, he sketched out his kitchen scheme. 

When he was done, the eunuch made a little clucking sound. “I will do as my lord commands, of course … but I must warn you, the kitchens are full of eyes and ears. Even if the girl falls under no particular suspicion, she will be subject to a thousand questions. Where was she born? Who were her parents? How did she come to King’s Landing? The truth will never do, so she must lie … and lie, and lie.” He glanced down at Tyrion. “And such a pretty young kitchen wench will incite lust as well as curiosity. She will be touched, pinched, patted, and fondled. Pot boys will crawl under her blankets of a night. Some lonely cook may seek to wed her. Bakers will knead her breasts with floured hands.” 

“I’d sooner have her fondled than stabbed,” said Tyrion. 

Varys rode on a few paces and said, “It might be that there is another way. As it happens, the maidservant who attends Lady Tanda’s daughter has been filching her jewels. Were I to inform Lady Tanda, she would be forced to dismiss the girl at once. And the daughter would require a new maidservant.” 

“I see.” This had possibilities, Tyrion saw at once. A lady’s bedmaid wore finer garb than a scullion, and often even a jewel or two. Shae should be pleased by that. And Cersei thought Lady Tanda tedious and hysterical, and Lollys a bovine lackwit. She was not like to pay them any friendly calls. 

“Lollys is timid and trusting,” Varys said. “She will accept any tale she is told. Since the mob took her maidenhood she is afraid to leave her chambers, so Shae will be out of sight … but conveniently close, should you have need of comfort.” 

“The Tower of the Hand is watched, you know as well as I. Cersei would be certain to grow curious if Lollys’s bedmaid starting paying me calls.” 

“I might be able to slip the child into your bedchamber unseen.”

--A Clash of Kings 

Here, Varys actually seems more concerned about Shae than Tyrion is. Tyrion doesn’t seem to care if she is molested or even raped in the kitchens. He isn’t even asking questions about some better possible situation.  

Later, Varys doesn’t want to make Shae Sansa’s hand maiden, since that will make her more likely to be noticed and looked into by Cercei. Varys can’t risk lying to Cersei, but Tyrion wants Shae close to him regardless of her safety. And in the end that is what seals her fate, since that is the only reason Cercei interrogates her in the first place. (Oh wait, no, Tyrion murdering her seals her fate. I almost forgot.)

Tyrion being dismissive of Shae:

He had settled Shae in a sprawling stone-and-timber manse, with its own well and stable and garden; he had given her servants to see to her wants, a white bird from the Summer Isles to keep her company, silks and silver and gemstones to adorn her, guards to protect her. And yet she seemed restive. She wanted to be with him more, she told him; she wanted to serve him and help him. “You help me most here, between the sheets,” he told her one night after their loving as he lay beside her, his head pillowed against her breast, his groin aching with a sweet soreness. She made no reply, save with her eyes. He could see there that it was not what she’d wanted to hear.

 Here we have an implication that Shae would rather be more involved in Tyrion's life rather than simply kept in luxury.  Tyrion gives zero shits what Shae wants. Despite thinking of her as clever early in their relationship, the idea of getting her opinion on anything at all does not cross his mind. Her job is purely about keeping Tyion's penis happy. 

Tyrion being scary and/or violent to/around Shae:

“Storm’s End has opened its gates to Stannis Baratheon.”

Dismay drove all other thoughts from Tyrion’s mind. When Shae returned with the wine, he took one sip and flung the cup away to explode against the side of the house. She raised a hand to shield herself from the shards as the wine ran down the stones in long fingers, black in the moonlight. 

He slapped her. Not hard, but hard enough. “Damn you,” he said. “Damn you. Never mock me. Not you.”

So...how hard is "hard enough"? 

~snip~

 

Congratulations you are an A+ Tyrion apologist. 

Now, I find it interesting, although you did say no woman in ASOIF world, not people generally, could ever like this character much,

No I said no woman in the series is going to see his good side for more than 5 minutes. Which still stands. 

to me the worse things he does in the series are not directed at women (apart from killing Shae in a rage).  One would be killing his father (nasty as he was) and the other setting the Blackwater on fire (although without it the city would have been sacked).  I just feel, with all due respect that this takes a very feminist view on things and also that things are viewed from the perspective of our values as women in the 21st century.

Tywin had that coming, I think everyone can agree. Blackwater was war. And, fun fact, the wildfyre was Cercei's idea in the first place. Rather than making additional suggestions to how it could be done more safely he goes behind her back right away. 

You do know that Tyrion is not a historical character? He was originally written in the 1990's by a modern author who is fairly feminist. You can't write a Catelyn or a Brienne without being significantly feminist. Considering GRRM calls Tyrion his most grey character, I'm pretty sure everything I'm picking up is intentional. Tyrion is not a basically good guy and is not written to be such. He is dark af, and not because I'm reading in things that aren't there. Sansa deserves better. 

[Morgana Lannister]

 

 

Have you read or heard of the theory that Penny is actually his daughter?

 

I first became aware of this theory via Tony Teflon's YouTube channel... I apologize that I don't have a link, but it said some things that stand out about Penny's life history that went right over my head (which is what makes rereading so much fun... Feeling like a dumb ass Lol) So I'd Google it if you're interested!

Thanks, yes I have read something on this theory and well.... could be I guess but with the brother, the story about the father and all, not impossible but inclined to go for the only family/identity surprise (or not so much in the forums lol) would be for Jon to be Lyanna + Rhaegar's son but for now a little sceptical about both Tyrion being a Targaryen and this.  Now one thing I am pretty sure of, although I could be wrong and it might not even be relevant is that Septa Lemore is the mother of one of the Sand Snakes.  Was trying to puzzle this out, read a few theories involving Ashara not dead and so on and then, looking at the list of people in the appendix of one of the books, there it was:  Tyene (Oberyn's daughter by a Septa).  Not proof by any means but would tie it up nicely with a Dornish connection

[Morgana Lannister]

Good lord, woman. Really? Teen Tyrion is turned on by the gang rape of someone he supposedly cared for and this is your takeaway? I've met Tyrion fans before but not quite on your level. 

Not out of fear. Out of arousal. *After* she's been raped by the whole garrison already. He's aroused. 

Mmkay. You might want to go do a re-read there. 

Please go back and read Tyrion's scenes with Shae. Ask yourself whether Tyrion genuinely cares about Shae or simply feels possessive of her. Does he demonstrate a pursuit of Shae's best interest or is he keeping her close/safe like a valuable possession?

This is a particularly telling passage:

Here, Varys actually seems more concerned about Shae than Tyrion is. Tyrion doesn’t seem to care if she is molested or even raped in the kitchens. He isn’t even asking questions about some better possible situation.  

Later, Varys doesn’t want to make Shae Sansa’s hand maiden, since that will make her more likely to be noticed and looked into by Cercei. Varys can’t risk lying to Cersei, but Tyrion wants Shae close to him regardless of her safety. And in the end that is what seals her fate, since that is the only reason Cercei interrogates her in the first place. (Oh wait, no, Tyrion murdering her seals her fate. I almost forgot.)

Tyrion being dismissive of Shae:

 Here we have an implication that Shae would rather be more involved in Tyrion's life rather than simply kept in luxury.  Tyrion gives zero shits what Shae wants. Despite thinking of her as clever early in their relationship, the idea of getting her opinion on anything at all does not cross his mind. Her job is purely about keeping Tyion's penis happy. 

Tyrion being scary and/or violent to/around Shae:

So...how hard is "hard enough"? 

Congratulations you are an A+ Tyrion apologist. 

No I said no woman in the series is going to see his good side for more than 5 minutes. Which still stands. 

Tywin had that coming, I think everyone can agree. Blackwater was war. And, fun fact, the wildfyre was Cercei's idea in the first place. Rather than making additional suggestions to how it could be done more safely he goes behind her back right away. 

You do know that Tyrion is not a historical character? He was originally written in the 1990's by a modern author who is fairly feminist. You can't write a Catelyn or a Brienne without being significantly feminist. Considering GRRM calls Tyrion his most grey character, I'm pretty sure everything I'm picking up is intentional. Tyrion is not a basically good guy and is not written to be such. He is dark af, and not because I'm reading in things that aren't there. Sansa deserves better. 

I am not ignoring your post but it is late here now and will reply to it properly when I have more time to re-read more quotes and stuff.  Hope this is okay as this debate is getting long and elaborated.

[SeanF]

i think sansa knew he is a good-natured guy, but the problem is that he is a dwarf and also ugly and also had only half nose.

So this is a big no no for Sansa and most of the noble women in the universe for whole life marriage.

let us be frank, even he is a very good guy in heart, still many women would feel reluctant to marry him.

It is a turn off. But, most significant is that she's a frightened prisoner, wed at sword point.

[Woman of War]

Morgana Lannister said:

 

Well, I think what we got here is a reader who is perhaps too fond of Tyrion (or identifies with him in some level), i.e. me and one who finds the opposite.  So, I am bound to find his best traits and you his worst and we will clearly never be in agreement on this.  Whether our personalities, backgrounds or experiences in real life play a part is hard to say without knowing each other but I will try to answer your points best I can.

These are words of wisdom. 

Which character we like or dislike tells maybe far more about ourselves and our own biography than about the character concerned.

You  do know that Tyrion is not a historical character? He was originally written in the 1990's by a modern author who is fairly feminist. You can't write a Catelyn or a Brienne without being significantly feminist. Considering GRRM calls Tyrion his most grey character, I'm pretty sure everything I'm picking up is intentional. Tyrion is not a basically good guy and is not written to be such. He is dark af, and not because I'm reading in things that aren't there. Sansa deserves better.

Blind Beth, you wish to apply modern laws and values on the characters? Ok, then let's do so! 

After the laws of my country and I guess after the laws of most modern countries a thirteen year old child forced into sexual activity by whatever means, violence, coercion or the wish to please the abuser, is an abused child. And the abuser, Tywin, not to speak of the guardsmen, would be punished nearly as severely for the abuse of Tyrion as he would be for the abuse of Tysha. Of course I am aware that Tysha's torture was far worse and yet, after modern laws, Tywin would go to prison for a long time for abusing not only Tysha but Tyrion as well. 

And yes, boys and men can be sexually abused too! If it exonerated the abuser that the abused child shows signs of arousal, has an erection e.g., then every producer of child porn who makes the kids act themselves would walk free : "what do you want, you had a boner, don't complain now,"

I am not a fan of "His cock betrayed him". Tyrion  was betrayed by many emotions, by trust in his beloved bog brother, by feeling worthless again after he believed Tysha's love an illusion. But first of all he was betrayed by his awe of Big Daddy, by his fear of him and his wish to get his respect. That destructive complex emotional mixture all abused children feel towards their abusive parents. I do not think that Tyrion was guilt free in the Tysha catastrophe. He was guilty of blindly trusting Jaime when he should have turned on his brain. But first of all he was guilty of cowardice, of not defying his father. A brave act adult men have failed to do. And yet he cannot forgive himself, this failure has destroyed his life since he had taken this marriage very seriously: "She was my wife!", he did not play at being married, despite his age he considered himself being married. 

Tyrion is not guilt free in the Tysha rape horror but after our modern laws he is first of all victim and then responsible

Sansa deserves better

LOL, a very big LOL!

Sansa is fictional and her purpose is to serve the story. I guess all the characters we like deserve garden parties and everlasting summer. Only we would not have a story in that case.

Since when do characters get what they deserve in these books!? Did Cat, one of my favorites, deserve to lose her children, to get her throat slit? Did Bran deserve to be paralysed? Why should Sansa be the big exception who gets "what she deserves"?  What do you think she will then get instead? Harry aka Ramsay? Baelish?  Are these the ones she will deserve in Martin's opinion? 

 

P.s I am perhaps a big example for the theory that the character we like tells more about ourselves than about the character. Like maybe few of you I am a parent, a mother and a mother of sons. So I get particularly annoyed at the concept that boys are somewhat lesser victims, are not as much accepted as potential victims of child abuse as girls are. I consider it fairly feminist to oppose to any kind of child abuse, in female as in male children.

 

[Morgana Lannister]

Morgana Lannister said:

These are words of wisdom. 

Which character we like or dislike tells maybe far more about ourselves and our own biography than about the character concerned.

 

Blind Beth, you wish to apply modern laws and values on the characters? Ok, then let's do so! 

After the laws of my country and I guess after the laws of most modern countries a thirteen year old child forced into sexual activity by whatever means, violence, coercion or the wish to please the abuser, is an abused child. And the abuser, Tywin, not to speak of the guardsmen, would be punished nearly as severely for the abuse of Tyrion as he would be for the abuse of Tysha. Of course I am aware that Tysha's torture was far worse and yet, after modern laws, Tywin would go to prison for a long time for abusing not only Tysha but Tyrion as well. 

And yes, boys and men can be sexually abused too! If it exonerated the abuser that the abused child shows signs of arousal, has an erection e.g., then every producer of child porn who makes the kids act themselves would walk free : "what do you want, you had a boner, don't complain now,"

I am not a fan of "His cock betrayed him". Tyrion  was betrayed by many emotions, by trust in his beloved bog brother, by feeling worthless again after he believed Tysha's love an illusion. But first of all he was betrayed by his awe of Big Daddy, by his fear of him and his wish to get his respect. That destructive complex emotional mixture all abused children feel towards their abusive parents. I do not think that Tyrion was guilt free in the Tysha catastrophe. He was guilty of blindly trusting Jaime when he should have turned on his brain. But first of all he was guilty of cowardice, of not defying his father. A brave act adult men have failed to do. And yet he cannot forgive himself, this failure has destroyed his life since he had taken this marriage very seriously: "She was my wife!", he did not play at being married, despite his age he considered himself being married. 

Tyrion is not guilt free in the Tysha rape horror but after our modern laws he is first of all victim and then responsible

LOL, a very big LOL!

Sansa is fictional and her purpose is to serve the story. I guess all the characters we like deserve garden parties and everlasting summer. Only we would not have a story in that case.

Since when do characters get what they deserve in these books!? Did Cat, one of my favorites, deserve to lose her children, to get her throat slit? Did Bran deserve to be paralysed? Why should Sansa be the big exception who gets "what she deserves"?  What do you think she will then get instead? Harry aka Ramsay? Baelish?  Are these the ones she will deserve in Martin's opinion? 

 

P.s I am perhaps a big example for the theory that the character we like tells more about ourselves than about the character. Like maybe few of you I am a parent, a mother and a mother of sons. So I get particularly annoyed at the concept that boys are somewhat lesser victims, are not as much accepted as potential victims of child abuse as girls are. I consider it fairly feminist to oppose to any kind of child abuse, in female as in male children.

 

OMG, thanks for this.  I was in fact, just this very moment going to reply to Blind Beth The Cat Lady as I promised I would do yesterday but was too tired to dig out paragraphs and do any research I could quote.

Firstly yes, a man can easily have an erection or even ejaculate without being hot with desire and as you pointed out.  Here is an article that covers it fairly well:  

http://www.vocativ.com/underworld/crime/hard-truth-girl-guy-rape/

 As with female victims, sexual arousal can be involuntary. Even ejaculation in cases of male rape is often the result of a mechanical biological response—not a sign of hot-blooded desire.

 

Sexual response in men (in the form of erection or ejaculation) often occurs during male rape. However, this response is a mechanical one, and the only thing it shows is that your body is reacting in the way it is supposed to react to sexual stimulation. It is a near biological certainty that pressure in the prostate gland will result in a physical sexual response. It does not, in any way, mean that you have enjoyed it - and it certainly does not stop the rape being a rape. It is simply a reaction to which your body naturally responds, in much the same way someone who does not want to laugh, may laugh against their will whilst being tickled. 

 

Now, since I have been going on as to how in Westeros it would appear that as soon as a man can ejaculate and a woman has "flowered" they are ready to be wedded and bedded I will not claim sexual child abuse on either of them.  However, teenage hormones are pretty hard to control and, he was 13 at the time so I think even seeing her naked could have provoked that.  The scene is not descriptive enough in the books to know whether Tysha was made to stimulate him against her own desires by playing with him in any way but even visualisation could cause that, especially at that age.  I am sure many men would argue that in horrific circumstances such as those they would be unable to get an erection but everything I have read appears to indicate that this is not necessarily the case.  Woman of War, you mention the male child pornography victims.  Funnily enough since we also talked a bit about how our own backgrounds can predispose you for or against fictional scenarios I worked for a time in the legal department of my local authority in the Child Protection Team and we had some horrific cases.  The worse involving a very young male teenager being made copulate with his much younger sister and this was just the tip of the iceberg.  It was all over the press and it was truly horrific.  So, yes, he is not guilty of rape but the victim of it although granted not as horrifically as she was.

When he describes how he felt no emotion I think he was in what can medically be described as shock for a variety of reasons and I get the impression that it all happened very quickly: got discovered, revelation came then the punishment.  It must have blown both their minds and Jamie's too I bet.

In fact even Bronn says:  “Thirteen or thrity three, I would have killed the man who did that to me.”  Bronn seems fairly experienced on the subject of sexual interactions and he would not have said that had he thought that Tyrion was getting his kicks from watching and taking part in gang rape.

Despite all this, he knew it was rape (and perceives himself as one of the perpetrators, which also poses the question of whether some of the guards might have been on the same boat even if they were older...) and he is totally remorseful about it for like the rest of his life, now probably more than ever since he now knows she didn't actually lie to him.

Quote:  "The smoke was stinging his eyes. Tyrion cleared his throat and turned away from the fire, to gaze into darkness."  The way I read this is that he is probably very embarrassed to talk about and and or fighting back tears still and he doesn't even know yet that she wasn't lying.

I actually feel that George researched this fairly well instead of just wanting to demonise  his favourite character further.  Well, he is male, perhaps he just knew it was possible although since this normally happens only when the female is the perpetrator is not something you hear about often, certainly not as often as a female being raped or male to male rape.  So, LOL, is he still invited to my fictional dinner party?  Yes.

Now, I need to go off on an errand but shall be back later to answer to the other replies, Blind Beth The Cat Lady.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I'm actually a big fan of Tyrion. I know a lot of people who read my posts concerning him would probably find that hard to believe. 

But, I won't go around pretending he is innocent. Nor try to excuse his crimes. His relationship with Shae is a huge problem for me, because she enters into a business contract. And he reneges on the deal. Telling himself they are in love, that the relationship has transcended that of Whore & John. 

He slaps her, he withholds the only form of payment he had previously given her which would enable her to leave KL. ie: the jewels and silks. Which she could sell and get out of dodge. But penniless with nothing but the clothes she stands in she has no choice but to remain in severe danger as to risk the rd alone and skint is basically a death sentence. 

She tries repeatedly to get them from both Tyrion & Varys. She reminds Tyrion more than once that she is a whore. and NOT his lady love as he perceives it. He wants to place her in the kitchens and thus subject her to harassment, rape and scrubbing pots. She became a whore because she hated menial work. She tells him so, whoring was her choice, she is slapped for her attempt to assert her own autonomy over what she does. And what does she do in that moment. She reverts to doffing her cap M'lord subservience. meaning she is afraid and going into self preservation mode. 

Varys gets her the job with Lollys, and she desperately wants to go to the wedding, why? what can a young beautiful whore who is being kept against her will achieve in a room full of wealthy, influential, men? Hmmmmm. I always interpreted her desire to attend as her wanting to escape via hooking up with someone who could get her out of KL. 

And then she testifies and yes she goes above and beyond. But you know what. We see it through his eyes and we feel for him. But when we look at the relationship from her POV well. I don't feel that she deserved to be murdered for what she did. She could hardly refuse to testify all together as Cersei is not exactly adverse to torturing the odd person via Qyburn now is she. And so what if she decided to testify for a manse and a husband. Why not? She was not Tyrion's girlfriend. She was a prostitute he basically kept prisoner and refused to pay up for her services, whilst still using them. 

 

Now the way he rapes his way across essos is disgusting and this is indeed him at his lowest ebb. And him being at his lowest ebb doesn't mean we should dismiss his vile acts as understandable or forgivable. And a woman being a prostitute does not mean she can not be raped. I was disgusted to read a post up thread where someone said Tysha was not raped as she was paid for every time. Gross, one she was not actually a whore. And even if she was if she didn't say yeah ok great I lie here and each of you takes a turn, the price will be a silver stag each. Then it is rape. Consent is such an important factor you know. And additionally anyone who is a slave is not a consenting partner. It isn't whoring; it is sex slavery. And to have sex with a person who can not with hold consent of their own free will is rape. 

So yes he is a deeply flawed man. 

I still like him as a character though and love reading his chapters. I want him to redeem himself. I think he is doing that and that Penny is the means by which he realises what a cunt he can be. We see him reflecting on things through his interactions with her, and we see him realising his own bad attitude and behaviour towards women. Especially in the sample chapters from TWOW. 

 

I'm not sure frankly he will end up with anyone tbh. He is one who I think will die at the end. despite him being GRRM's favourite, I doubt that offers permanent immunity. 

[Woman of War]

Weirwood eyes, I agree that being a Tyrion fan does not mean to take away from this character's complexity by ignoring his darker deeds.

Only I do not really see what your arguments  have to do with the likelihood that Tyrion might be Sansa's final husband. Do you think that Sansa can only get a flawless husband? Umm, in  that case I'd suggest Pod or so far John, if he doesn't  decompose before. the only male major characters who have so far not done seriously dark deeds.  

But about any other potential suitor we could write a balance sheet just as damning or worse than Tyrion's.

But

Now the way he rapes his way across essos is disgusting and this is indeed him at his lowest ebb....

Sorry, but Tyrion does not rape his way through Essos. He hatefucks that prostitute, being very much aware that he basically "fucked a corpse", a woman who was beyond caring who fucked her. He is consciously aware  of what he does and yet he does it again. This is actually far more dark than the bare fact that he buys a prostitute in Essos, where they  all are slaves. If you wish to define every single intercourse with a sex worker in Essos as rape i'm fine with it since the naked information  does not tell us much about Tyrion's state of mind. He does the same Jorah does, whichever male character in Essos   may do the same: to  buy a slave prostitute. And yet for Martin the important information is that Jorah buys a woman that looks a bit like Daenerys.

 

....his way across Essos

What do you mean? He never raped another  person: He insulted and threatened the servant at Illyrio's but he did not touch her. He wanted to feel power by frightening and humiliating her. If the servant had been an old man he probably would have called him shrivelled and useless, if the servant had been a young man he would have verbally abused him as well without any intention of entering gay sex.

So maybe you should be more accurate. Tyrion  did a lot of dark things but only one act that could be called rape.

But all this is completely off topic since it has virtually nothing to do with how Sansa will ever see Tyrion: she has no idea about what he did in Essos and If Tyrion ever confesses his darkness to her this would mean that they already are friends who trust each other. And he would have to confess far more severe things than this one rape.

Our moral evaluation of the fictional character of Tyrion has only to do with what we readers want for his future. I as someone who is fascinated by this fictional character would want an at least  remotely happy ending for him, with recognition and someone whom he loves and who loves him back. Will he get it? Who knows! He will though not get all his wishes granted. I guess he will never get Casterly Rock, or he will give it up when he could have it. Which means that Sansa would  never be Lady of CR through him, if he were - back to topic - her final husband.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I'm not entering into a long previously discussed topic with you. Your mental acrobatics to avoid the reality that Tyrion is a rapist bore me. And yes Jorah too and anyone else who has buys sex in those circumstances. 

[Morgana Lannister]

Yes, sorry everyone, this thread is getting more and more about Tyrion and more and more out of topic but I am guilty of driving it a little in that direction msyelf.  Mayhaps another thread should be opened although I am sure there are tons already to discuss these issues but I will try to give my two cents briefly if I may first   On the issue of moving this topic elsewhere, who decides if this is necessary and how do we do that if that is the case?