Parallels between "Beauty and the Beast" and Sansa/Tyrion

[Nevets]

I have recently noticed some interesting parallels between the "Beauty and the Beast" legend and the story of Sansa and Tyrion.

In  the "Beauty and the Beast" legend (there are many versions, but the gist is the same), Sansa Beauty is coerced through threats and trickery into joining Tyrion the Beast at his castle, where she remains, as his wife prisoner in a non-sexual relationship.  She fears and hates him because of his and his family's actions, and is repulsed by his ugly, beastly appearance.  Each night, he asks her if she will have sex with marry him, and each night she refuses him.  Despite her refusals, he treats her gently, with kindness and generosity.  In the end, through various machinations, she realizes he is a kind and generous man who is worthy of her, and willingly agrees to marry him, removing a curse upon him and his castle.

I have to come to conclude GRRM is setting things up for a Sansa and Tyrion reunion and an eventual true marriage between them.  There is clearly some unfinished business between them, so I expect them to meet again, this time without the baggage of the Lannisters' imprisonment of her, and she will come to realize that whether or not she loves him at that moment, he is a worthy husband for her.

I feel that San/San is both an additional story for her, before she reunites with Tyrion, and is misdirection with regards to the Beauty and the Beast story, which his interest in is well known.  I would like to point out, also, that in the legend, her attraction for Beast occurs only at or near the very end of the story, whereas with Sandor, she is already attracted to him.

I was going to put this in the recent thread about Sansa's final husband, but it got closed.

So, do you think this indicates, in any way, the direction of Sansa's story?

 

[Joan Jett]

It's a bit strange to say that SanSan is a 'misdirection'. GRRM has taken a lot of care in writing them, Sansa's thoughts about him, Sandor blabbing about her all the time, the whole 'unkiss' thing. I think there's too many suggestions in the books for it to just be a red herring. 

Also I really don't think that there's really anything substantial between Tyrion and Sansa. They have a few parallels, sure, but actual feelings? No.  And I doubt Sansa will *ever* be attracted to Tyrion. 

[Nevets]

'Misdirection' was probably the wrong word to use.  It's clear that she has feelings for Sandor, and will probably act on them as the story progresses.  I can even envisage a love affair between them.  I cannot see, however, that they will, in the end, marry.  Somehow, the thought of Sandor Clegane settling down and helping to raise a brood of little Sandors and Sansas fills me with laughter. I just can't see it.  And in Westeros, that is what marriage is about, especially at Sansa's social strata.  Making connections and alliances, and raising a family.  Sandor has nothing to offer for the first role, and I have a hard time envisaging him in the second one.  I also don't think the parallels between the "Beauty and the Beast" legend and her marriage to Tyrion are accidental, and I definitely think they will meet again.

[sweetsunray]

Well, it's not true that Beauty despises the Beast during her stay. In fact, she regards him as a friend, loves him as a friend, while imagining herself in love with a handsome prince of her dreams. She thinks the handsome prince and Beast are two separate persons. It's only after discovering she truly loves the Beast, as he's dying, instead of having love for a friend, that she discovers the Beast = Prince.

The books don't set off Sandor against Tyrion, but first against Joffrey and from the tourney on against Loras. And to whom hands Loras the victory at the end of the Tourney? To Sandor, for saving his life.

• Loras gives a rose to Sansa and she swoons over it - yet she hopes Sandor wins the tourney
• Her first textual erotic fantasy is about kissing Loras - we learn she believes she was kissed by Sandor in the chapter after
• Tyrion says he's the knight of Flowers in the night - Sansa considers it's a lie and wonders where the Hound is
• She wants to pretend it's Loras kissing her when SR kisses her - she remembers the unkiss again

She doesn't regard Tyrion as her friend before the marriage or during, only afterwards. Meanwhile she thinks she's in love with Loras, and regards Sandor consciously as her friend, but latently desire Sandor.

Then there's the issue that they are already married (Tyrion and Sansa) and that Tyrion didn't marry Sansa for Sansa, but for her claim of WF. The Beast didn't care for Beauty's claim. He wanted her for her.

[LongRider]

A cold evening by the fire, "Dear, remember when your mother kidnapped me and took me the Eyire?"  "Oh yes dear, so glad you had a chance to meet her, before she was killed by your fathers plotting and violation of guest rights."  "Yes, yes, darling, but thanks to that I was able to meet your vivacious Aunt Lysa.   The accommodations at the Eyrie I will never forget, what stunning views from the cell she gave me."  "Oh yes my darling, the views can be beautiful in summer.   Did you meet my cousin Sweet Robin as well?"  "Did I!  He was so excited to have me get a 'birds eye' view of the place, but drat.  If just didn't happen."

She sows another stitch, "Oh yes, love.  Remember our wedding?  How I tried to run away, cried and refused to kneel for you?  Good times, good times."  "Yes, yes sweets, who could forget that, one of the defining moments of my life!  But your declaration of never wanting to lie with me, which hasn't changed, well, perhaps one day?"   "Oh dear no, why would I go back on my word to you? I'm your good wife." 

"Oh, and darling, remember how your fathers vassals cut off my brothers head and put his dire wolf's head on the body, such creativity!  Too bad the BWB and my zombie mother hanged them all.  Tragedy really."

"Well, well sweets, they were such good servants, it was too bad.  I did enjoy killing my father tho."  "Please husband!  Don't say that aloud!  As it is I can't be seen in good society because my husband is a kinslayer!  That fact is such an embarrassment to me, but you're my husband, so I just smile and solider on through!"

"But wait darling, is that as bad as when you betrayed me at my nephew's wedding and left me holding the 'you killed Joffery bag?  Cersei nearly had my head for that."

"Yes, well, your older brother, who wasn't killed in violation of guest right, did you a good turn there when he let you escape."  "Oh, a well, gee, um......"  

"..."

"Oh, and husband, sorry about my younger brothers showing up alive after all and reclaiming and rebuilding WF, best laid plans and all.  Alas, they won't see me because I'm married into the family that killed their father, mother and eldest brother, and forced me to marry you.  Such bad sports they are!"

"..."

"..."

"Well I'm off to the local winesink for some sour red, all we can afford these days."

"Very well, have fun with your whores tonight."

"Bye."

 

Nope, too much baggage.  Kinda tough to live with the man whose family killed yours and is a kinslayer to boot.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

10 minutes ago, LongRider said:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~snip~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nope, too much baggage.  Kinda tough to live with the man whose family killed yours and is a kinslayer to boot.

Ha!  Agreed.  I always think of the 'Beauty and the Beast' thing to be a tale of two different stories, Tyrion and Sandor, with absolute opposites in their arc to be explored.  George playing with the traditional story so to speak.  As you know Longie there are plenty of posters with far more than me on such matters, so will bow to such knowledge.  But there seem to be parallels to be explored.   

[LongRider]

If Tyrion is a beast of Sansa's, it one she soundly rejects. 

[OldGimletEye]

23 minutes ago, LongRider said:

<snip>

Ha, Ha, So true.

[LongRider]

1 minute ago, LongRider said:

dupe

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

1 minute ago, LongRider said:

If Tyrion is a beast of Sansa's, it one she soundly rejects. 

Exactly.  The opposite of her thoughts about Sandor, playing with the traditional story if you like, within two different arc's.  Rather than go rigid BATB, he's added different perspectives/angles for Sansa.  She rejects Tyrion and embraces Sandor, the real 'beast' in her story.  Maybe not, I'm not as researched as many on this subject.    

[LongRider]

Fans hang on to her thoughts of him being kind to her.  Well, yes she said that and yes he was.  But on their wedding night she refused to have sex with him and also told him she never would.  This is so much more important, and devastating to Tyrion.  Not only did he have to suffer this in front of Sansa, but Tywin knew too and put pressure on Tyrion to rape her, which to his credit, he didn't.   So in many ways, thinking once or twice that he was kind to her is faint praise to me.

[kimim]

Hasn't Sansa been through enough? Must she be continuously paired with emotionally damaged men? Tyrion is so fucked up at this point it's not funny, and Sandor...omg.

[Nevets]

35 minutes ago, LongRider said:

<snip>

Nope, too much baggage.  Kinda tough to live with the man whose family killed yours and is a kinslayer to boot.

How about this:

"I remember you left me holding the bag at Joffrey's murder"

"Yeah, Littlefinger did a good job on that one.  If you recall, he made me look guilty as hell, also.  I had to hide out forever, and it gave him a hold over me.  Shaking that was awful.  Thank the Gods he's no longer around to cause trouble. The Vale was nice,, though.  But I would have rather been in Winterfell."

"Your brothers are welcome to it.  Too cold and snowy for me.  Plus having to deal with all those quarrelsome Northerners.  Tthank the gods I never became Lord of Winterfell.  That would have been awful.  And, to think, I actually married you, in part for that.  But mostly, because my dad told me to, and for you, yourself, believe it or not." 

"Why, that's so sweet of you!  So, shall we make some more Lannarks to join little Robb.  Named for the brother your father had killed in violation of guest right.  It was so nice of you to kill him for me"

"Um, well..."

"Oh, never mind."

Fade to black.

[LongRider]

That's the spirit Nevets! 

Here are some thoughts on why I don't see a BatB parallel with Tyrion.  I've read that BatB is a story about sexual awakening.  Sansa doesn't have one with Tyrion.  She always thinks he's ugly, has few encounters with him around the red keep and doesn't touch him before or after their wedding.  And after the wedding?  Well, she won't touch him on her wedding night and tells him she won't have sex with him ever, as long as she has a choice. 

He stops Jeff's abuse of her the day Joff had her stripped, but Sansa did not seek him out thank him for that.  After leaving KL she doesn't think of Tyrion much, mostly wonders if he's still alive and if she's still married to him.  Not very endearing thoughts really.

And while Tyrion may have had some lust for her, he was convinced to marry her because according to Tywin, that would make him Lord of WF, which he put more thought into than of being married to Sansa.  In other words, her claim was more attractive than she was. 

So compare with Sandor?  Well, there's thousands of pages here written about that, so just a quick paragraph.  She thinks the Hound is ugly, but is not afraid to look him in the face.  She touches him, she put her hand on his shoulder the first time she spent time with him when he walked her back from tourney.  They touch each other many times over time while she is in KL. 

She made sure to thank him for rescuing her during the riots when she saw him again for the next time.  After leaving KL, she thinks of him and dreams of him.  So I would say that there is only one beast for her in the story, Sandor.

[Le Cygne]

On 1/22/2016 at 9:32 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

She rejects Tyrion and embraces Sandor, the real 'beast' in her story.  Maybe not, I'm not as researched as many on this subject.    

I have researched Beauty and the Beast extensively. He's using  La Belle et la Bete as his inspiration for the two Beauty and the Beast stories he's telling, Sansa and the Hound, and Jaime and Brienne.

Beauty and the Beast is a story of sexual awakening. I've seen people make it way more complicated than it is, but he's not making a statement, or twisting it this way or that, he's telling a love story, and following the beats of this story.

Sansa and the Hound.

She lay awake at night in bed thinking about him, after a sexually charged parting, where she instinctively caresses him, and then gives him a special kiss, she's very much aware of her feelings for him that were once beneath the surface. And she misses him, and he misses her, remember where the heart is, she reminded him of who he once was, she stays too long, and gets into trouble, and he nearly dies of heartbreak. And she'll likely soon find out. She compares other men to him throughout the story, and he always wins

Just as he did at her father's tourney. There, the rose, (Loras, the Knight of Flowers) yields to the Beast (Sansa knew the Hound would win). Her thoughts of the rose give way to something much deeper with the Beast, something that was there all along, beneath the surface. The rose plays its part (leading Beauty to the Beast), and then is done, she knows the rose didn't mean what she thought, nor did her prince (Joffrey). The story centers on Beauty and her Beast (Sansa and the Hound). It's a love story. A classic romance.

Tyrion does not play the role of Beast in Sansa's story. He's the fake rose, he makes the Knight of Flowers in the dark pitch, which she soundly rejects. He even says, she "wants no part of me, and most especially not the part that seems to want her."

Beauty and the Beast. Sansa and the Hound. That's the one he's telling. And Jaime and Brienne.

I have mentioned all of these things before on other threads, but I'm writing it all up (for Jaime and Brienne, too), these are really good stories...

(fixed the link)

[Wizz-The-Smith]

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Tyrion does not play the role of Beast in Sansa's story. He's the fake rose, he makes the Knight of Flowers in the dark pitch, which she soundly rejects. He even says, she "wants no part of me, and most especially not the part that seems to want her."

Beauty and the Beast. Sansa and the Hound. That's the one he's telling. And Jaime and Brienne.

Hey Le Cygne, that's kind of what I was getting at.  'He's the fake rose' which she rejects. 

I should have added the Jaime and Brienne story as well. 

[Le Cygne]

On 1/22/2016 at 10:36 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hey Le Cygne, that's kind of what I was getting at.  'He's the fake rose' which she rejects. 

I should have added the Jaime and Brienne story as well. 

Yeah, Tyrion is not even remotely the Beast, not even the anti-Beast. He plays a different role altogether. He's not even the real rose! He's trying to horn in on the rose's act!

She rejects him profoundly sexually, dissing his manhood, and says never.

Also, the author hammers this in with the Mercy chapter,

Spoiler

Arya as Sansa does the same to the dwarf in the behind the scenes part of the story. She disses his "manhood" and says never.

The dwarf also gropes her breast like Tyrion groped Sansa's breast. And she tells him, do that again, and you won't have a nose! He says they belong together, and she says only when I'm kneeling, then stands up to tower above him.

In the real story, Tyrion said he would only send Sansa home when Robb bent the knee, then when he forcibly married her, she refused to kneel to him, then he cursed her for not doing so. (You might have knelt, damn you. Would it have been so bloody hard to bend those stiff Stark knees of yours and let me keep a little dignity?)

[sweetsunray]

While some connections can be made between Tyrion and Beast, they seem mostly to be the reverse. For example the arc of the Beast is not just someone who looks monstrous on the outside, but is gruff, not refined in manners and close to callous - out of touch with his humanity. Through the company of Beauty he remembers again what it is to be human. That is the arc we see Sandor going through. With Tyrion we see the reverse happen. He's a decent man who seems to care for people's well being in general at the start, but grows more and more resentful, petty and callous.

And then there's the bit about the dying from a broken heart. Who is supposedly dead? Sandor or Tyrion? Sandor of course. And he "died" because he learned to his shock that Sansa married the Imp, got too drunk over it that he acquired serious wounds by one of his brother's minions. More, he rambled on about Sansa as he lay physically dying. It's as close to "dying of a broken heart" that we have. If Tyrion were to learn that Sansa managed to get their marriage anulled and married another, would he be heartbroken over it? Of course not. He might be angry even more though, for the ungrateful unwilling wench giving her claim to another man. But he won't shed a tear over it, let alone die over it.

When Beauty learns the Beast is dying she rushes to his side ASAP. If Sansa was to learn of the news of the Hound being dead, or Tyrion... for whom would she grieve the most? The Hound's death. She doesn't miss Tyrion. She doesn't wish he had taken her along. She doesn't regret leaving him or not going with him. But she does wonder where the Hound is now and regrets not going with him.

I also find it odd that Sandor is supposed to be the red herring for Tyrion, when many readers who read all books and stumble on the forum exclaim surprise to learn that there's a theory that Sandor = gravedigger and thus most likely alive. And yet those same readers are very aware Tyrion is still alive. The majority of readers, who haven't read and reread the books in detail for every possible clue, consider the Hound to be dead, and thus already wrote him off as a possible romantic outcome for Sansa's story. If an author wants a character to be a red herring, he'd have to avoid the majority of casual readers believing the red herring character is dead. 

While there are allusions to Tyrion as a Beast or Monster (the dinner scene), saying he's the Knight of Flowers at night, his uglyness they are simultaneously a missmatch or reversal to the Beast archetype... So, he's the red herring.

[David Selig]

14 hours ago, Nevets said:

I have recently noticed some interesting parallels between the "Beauty and the Beast" legend and the story of Sansa and Tyrion.

In  the "Beauty and the Beast" legend (there are many versions, but the gist is the same), Sansa Beauty is coerced through threats and trickery into joining Tyrion the Beast at his castle, where she remains, as his wife prisoner in a non-sexual relationship.  She fears and hates him because of his and his family's actions, and is repulsed by his ugly, beastly appearance.  Each night, he asks her if she will have sex with marry him, and each night she refuses him.  Despite her refusals, he treats her gently, with kindness and generosity.  In the end, through various machinations, she realizes he is a kind and generous man who is worthy of her, and willingly agrees to marry him, removing a curse upon him and his castle.

Well, given that Tyrion is the exact opposite of kind and generous, I don't see much of a similarity,

[Queen Alienor]

I really don't see Tyrion as the Beast to Sansa's Beauty. 

She does not really have any positive emotions for him, the best she can say is that he was kind. Like, that's not really a glowing recomendation, especially compared to what she thinks of Sandor. And she really, really isn't attracted to Tyrion, at all.

I do think Martin is playing around with the Beauty and the Beast motif quite a lot, in multiple situations and with multiple pairings, but if there is going to be a clearly defined Beast, which is not given, it's going to be Sandor, not Tyrion.