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Small Questions v. 10105

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18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Targaryens were lucky that the sons of the Dragon did indeed not have any sisters to marry. Had Aegon had any daughters things would have exploded much sooner because it is very obvious that they would have married a daughter of Visenya to Aenys and/or a daughter of Rhaenys to Maegor to prevent the kind of succession they later had during Maegor's reign.

I would say that it ultimately worked out for the Targaryens, as Maegor's reign of terror made it possible for Jaehaerys to come in and "good cop" it, even while being married to his sister. But without knowing what choices Aegon would have made had he had some daughters as well, I wouldn't say they were lucky, because they would have had options.

If Aegon had had daughters, let's say two, he could have forced the incest issue by marrying them to his sons, and dared those who opposed him on religious grounds to challenge them over it. Perhaps he takes care of the issue early in his own reign, whereas it took decades for the issue to play out over the reign of Aenys, Maegor, and Jaehaerys, and they ultimately had to live with Targaryen incest anyway. Or perhaps he only causes them to dig in their heels, and they are never really accepted on any level.

But maybe he still chooses not to force the incest issue? Maybe he still marries Aenys to Alyssa Velaryon since she is close enough to contribute Targaryen ancestry without causing an incest issue.  Maybe he even marries one of his daughters into House Velaryon to keep them up as a source for Targ ancestry that is close enough to satisfy their needs, and distant enough to satisfy opponents of incest.

Or perhaps he uses his daughters and Maegor to tie houses or regions to the throne in a way that wasn't possible with just Aenys and Maegor, so they can produce children that belong to Westeros but are fit to be married back into the Targ line. Perhaps he sets a precedent that Aenys and his descendants can follow which both meets their genetic needs and does not transgress Westerosi religion.

Just a bunch of speculation, of course. I am not sure what Aegon would have done, but I don't take for granted that he would have automatically wed his sons and daughters.

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I would say that it ultimately worked out for the Targaryens, as Maegor's reign of terror made it possible for Jaehaerys to come in and "good cop" it, even while being married to his sister. But without knowing what choices Aegon would have made had he had some daughters as well, I wouldn't say they were lucky, because they would have had options.

My point is more that the Targaryens may have lost everything had Aegon actually tried to force the issue during his reign.

The way things turned is that familiarity had indeed given birth and raised acceptance by the time the Conqueror finally died. The rebellions during the days of his sons were attempts to change things back but only a minority wanted the Targaryens to be gone. And while the basis from which the Faith Militant could recruit its fighters was still very strong it clearly was much smaller than it was back in the days of the Conquest.

Back then a majority of the Faith wanted to go war with the Faith. Later on it was a minority, and it was only the zealous High Septon, Ceryse's uncle, who pushed things to escalation. His successor (and the Hightowers, who most likely helped to kill him) cooled things down.

And while the Faith officially lost and all the Poor Fellows were never truly gone. They survived underground until the Dance and even into the days of King Tommen and now they are back officially. The sparrows basically are Poor Fellows. Cersei sees the men with the stars even before Maegor's laws are officially revoked.

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

If Aegon had had daughters, let's say two, he could have forced the incest issue by marrying them to his sons, and dared those who opposed him on religious grounds to challenge them over it. Perhaps he takes care of the issue early in his own reign, whereas it took decades for the issue to play out over the reign of Aenys, Maegor, and Jaehaerys, and they ultimately had to live with Targaryen incest anyway. Or perhaps he only causes them to dig in their heels, and they are never really accepted on any level.

The incest thing is part of Targaryen identity and culture. It is what they do. And Aegon and Visenya did not raise their sons and grandsons with the idea that their family was to change now that they were living in another land. Aenys I would never have come up with the idea to marry Rhaena to Aegon had his father and stepmother not raised him with the family traditions in mind. Aegon chose Alyssa Velaryon as Aenys' bride because she was his closest female relation of noble birth and Visenya also suggested the Rhaena-Maegor for similar reason (and also to strengthen the position of her own son, of course). But that match was not only resisted by the High Septon but also Aenys and Alyssa who did not went to wed their young daughter to her uncle Maegor.

But if Aegon had forced the issue early in his reign by marrying one of his sons to a daughter of his things would have exploded back then, most likely marking the beginning of the end of the Targaryen reign. Back then more lords and nobles would have been willing to stand with the Faith against the Targaryens.

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

But maybe he still chooses not to force the incest issue? Maybe he still marries Aenys to Alyssa Velaryon since she is close enough to contribute Targaryen ancestry without causing an incest issue.  Maybe he even marries one of his daughters into House Velaryon to keep them up as a source for Targ ancestry that is close enough to satisfy their needs, and distant enough to satisfy opponents of incest.

That would have been a possible way to deal with things. But it would have been to make a change to Targaryen tradition. Aenys I could also have done this. I mean, he must have known things were pretty bad with the Faith already. But incest was just the thing they were doing, period. It is so much ingrained in their culture that even young Egg considers it perfectly natural back in TSS.

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Or perhaps he uses his daughters and Maegor to tie houses or regions to the throne in a way that wasn't possible with just Aenys and Maegor, so they can produce children that belong to Westeros but are fit to be married back into the Targ line. Perhaps he sets a precedent that Aenys and his descendants can follow which both meets their genetic needs and does not transgress Westerosi religion.

Aegon actually was the one to agree to the High Septon's suggestion that Maegor marry Ceryse. I don't think Visenya liked that all that much but Aegon saw wisdom in that, since it established closer ties both with the Faith and the Hightowers.

And it is actually ironic that nothing came of this alliance. Had Maegor had sons I'm pretty sure Maegor and Visenys would have killed Aenys' son with the blessings of the Faith and the help of the Hightowers. It might even be that the High Septon would have allowed Maegor's sons to marry their sisters (and certainly their cousins Rhaena or Alysanne).

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Just a bunch of speculation, of course. I am not sure what Aegon would have done, but I don't take for granted that he would have automatically wed his sons and daughters.

It would be what he would have wanted to do. To keep the blood of the dragon pure as tradition demanded. Whether he would have been able to do it is difficult to say. But I'm pretty sure both he and Visenya would have tried. Very hard, actually.

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Really brings up a point I've been musing over in my mind for some time that Maegor actually saved the targaryen dynasty even though he was  a cruel and wicked tyrant his decisiveness in dealing with the faith militant was what kept house targaryen as the monarchs whilst aenys was a weakling and couldn't achieve anything decisive, Maegor was headstrong and tough and showed the faith that incest was something the targaryens didn't  want to forgo any time soon, because Maegor knew that if they stopped practicing incest eventually they will stop having the ability to ride dragons, and losing that ability for the targs was something impossible to concede because it is the basis of all their power

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3 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

Really brings up a point I've been musing over in my mind for some time that Maegor actually saved the targaryen dynasty even though he was  a cruel and wicked tyrant his decisiveness in dealing with the faith militant was what kept house targaryen as the monarchs whilst aenys was a weakling and couldn't achieve anything decisive, Maegor was headstrong and tough and showed the faith that incest was something the targaryens didn't  want to forgo any time soon, because Maegor knew that if they stopped practicing incest eventually they will stop having the ability to ride dragons, and losing that ability for the targs was something impossible to concede because it is the basis of all their power

Actually, Maegor never entered into an incestuous marriage (the High Septon spoke against the Rhaena-Maegor thing but uncle-niece marriages are not really considered incest in Westeros - it is mother-son, father-daughter, and brother-sister). Uncle-niece or aunt-nephew might be odd but they are not forbidden. The Starks do it, too, and cousin marriages are prevalent among the Andals, too (Tywin-Joanna). 

Maegor helped begin a war with the Faith when he decided to set aside Ceryse Hightower, the niece of the High Septon, and continued it because they opposed his rule and sure as hell refused to bow down to the likes of Tyanna of the Tower (who was basically a whore turned queen). Maegor also fought a war against House Targaryen, killing two of his nephews. He was as much a danger to House Targaryen than the Faith Militant ever was.

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On 28-4-2017 at 0:59 AM, Lord Varys said:

There were six High Septons from the Conquest to the time of Aegon's death, and while Aegon honored them all it is said that the question of incestuous marriage simmered behind the courtesies like poison.

So then, the High Septon from the time of the Conquest (who died in 11 AC) is included in the count of six High Septons during Aegon's reign? Or were there six additional ones after the High Septon who died in 11 AC?

Because you previously reported this:

Quote

The High Septon who anointed Aegon died in 11. Six HS followed until Aegon's death.

 

On 28-4-2017 at 0:59 AM, Lord Varys said:

The Targaryens were lucky that the sons of the Dragon did indeed not have any sisters to marry. Had Aegon had any daughters things would have exploded much sooner because it is very obvious that they would have married a daughter of Visenya to Aenys and/or a daughter of Rhaenys to Maegor to prevent the kind of succession they later had during Maegor's reign.

I'm not sure about this. Who knows how Aegon would have acted if he had had any daughters. The Faith objected to a betrothal between Maegor and Rhaena, so clearly they would have objected to a betrothal between Aenys or Maegor and one of their sisters. If Aegon truly tried his best to keep the Faith on his side, he would have listened to those objections, just as he did when Visenya suggested the Maegor/Rhaena match. Alyssa seems to have been the closest cousin Aenys and Maegor had, so Aegon might have arranged the match without even suggesting a marriage between his heir and his daughter. And if he did entertain the idea of betrothing Aenys to his sister, the High Septon might have proposed Ceryse for Aenys, instead of Maegor a few years later.

And if Aegon had decided not to marry Aenys to his sister, despite the fact that he had one, Aenys himself might have never arranged the Rhaena/Aegon match.

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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Very confused about a passage in AFFC, page 591. Samwell is talking about Dalla and Mance's child:

"A name even my lord father would like. A warrior's name. The boy was Mance Rayder's son and Craster's grandson, after all. He had non of Sam's craven blood."

How is Dalla's and Mance Rayder's son Craster's grandson? Did I miss something? Or is Sam simply mixing up Gilly's and Dalla's sons? In the latter case, it's a pretty on your nose case of unreliable narrator which puts into question everything we read in Sam's chapters.

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A Game of Thrones, Sansa V

Pycelle pushed himself to his feet. He was clad in a magnificent robe of thick red velvet, with an ermine collar and shiny gold fastenings. From a drooping sleeve, heavy with gilded scrollwork, he drew a parchment, unrolled it, and began to read a long list of names, commanding each in the name of king and council to present themselves and swear their fealty to Joffrey. Failing that, they would be adjudged traitors, their lands and titles forfeit to the throne.

The names he read made Sansa hold her breath. Lord Stannis Baratheon, his lady wife, his daughter. Lord Renly Baratheon. Both Lord Royces and their sons. Ser Loras Tyrell. Lord Mace Tyrell, his brothers, uncles, sons. The red priest, Thoros of Myr. Lord Beric Dondarrion. Lady Lysa Arryn and her son, the little Lord Robert. Lord Hoster Tully, his brother Ser Brynden, his son Ser Edmure. Lord Jason Mallister. Lord Bryce Caron of the Marches. Lord Tytos Blackwood. Lord Walder Frey and his heir Ser Stevron. Lord Karyl Vance. Lord Jonos Bracken. Lady Shella Whent. Doran Martell, Prince of Dorne, and all his sons. So many, she thought as Pycelle read on and on, it will take a whole flock of ravens to send out these commands.

And at the end, near last, came the names Sansa had been dreading. Lady Catelyn Stark. Robb Stark. Brandon Stark, Rickon Stark, Arya Stark. Sansa stifled a gasp. Arya. They wanted Arya to present herself and swear an oath … it must mean her sister had fled on the galley, she must be safe at Winterfell by now …

Do we know who those brothers are? Or did Pycelle mean Mace's 'brothers in law' - Alerie Hightower's brothers? (Baelor Brightsmile, Garth Greysteel and Humfrey).

Taking the connections between House Hightower and The Citadel into consideration, Pycelle might be trying hard not to paint his patrons in a bad light - there can't be even a shadow of a hint that they're not loyal to King Joffrey.

 

Edited by Blue Tiger

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1 hour ago, syrinx said:

Very confused about a passage in AFFC, page 591. Samwell is talking about Dalla and Mance's child:

"A name even my lord father would like. A warrior's name. The boy was Mance Rayder's son and Craster's grandson, after all. He had non of Sam's craven blood."

How is Dalla's and Mance Rayder's son Craster's grandson? Did I miss something? Or is Sam simply mixing up Gilly's and Dalla's sons? In the latter case, it's a pretty on your nose case of unreliable narrator which puts into question everything we read in Sam's chapters.

Your confusion is shared by many, and it has spawned a few threads. 

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3 hours ago, syrinx said:

Very confused about a passage in AFFC, page 591. Samwell is talking about Dalla and Mance's child:

"A name even my lord father would like. A warrior's name. The boy was Mance Rayder's son and Craster's grandson, after all. He had non of Sam's craven blood."

How is Dalla's and Mance Rayder's son Craster's grandson? Did I miss something? Or is Sam simply mixing up Gilly's and Dalla's sons? In the latter case, it's a pretty on your nose case of unreliable narrator which puts into question everything we read in Sam's chapters.

I interpret this to mean that the boy is Craster's grandson in the sense that his adopted mother (Gilly) is Craster's daughter, making the child Craster's grandchild in a way, although they are not related by blood.

 

3 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

Do we know who those brothers are? Or did Pycelle mean Mace's 'brothers in law' - Alerie Hightower's brothers? (Baelor Brightsmile, Garth Greysteel and Humfrey).

Taking the connections between House Hightower and The Citadel into consideration, Pycelle might be trying hard not to paint his patrons in a bad light - there can't be even a shadow of a hint that they're not loyal to King Joffrey.

 

According to the appendices, Mace has no brothers. So it likely is a mistake.

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4 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I interpret this to mean that the boy is Craster's grandson in the sense that his adopted mother (Gilly) is Craster's daughter, making the child Craster's grandchild in a way, although they are not related by blood.

Sam is clearly talking about blood relations though.

 

6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Your confusion is shared by many, and it has spawned a few threads. 

 

Could you point to some of them? Thanks! :-)

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1 hour ago, syrinx said:

Sam is clearly talking about blood relations though.

 

 

Could you point to some of them? Thanks! :-)

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime...

Type "sam mance craster grandson son site:asoiaf.westeros.org" into Google. 

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10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Your confusion is shared by many, and it has spawned a few threads. 

This has always threw me off too. Is Sam just being goofy? He seems to be referring to blood relations. 

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On 4/26/2017 at 5:11 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I'm sure this has been asked, and I did do a few searches that went no where, but, why does Khal Drogo call Jorah "Jorah the Andal"?

Isn't this what they refer to all people of Sunset Kingdom? I mean Jorah is of the First Men. 

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7 minutes ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Isn't this what they refer to all people of Sunset Kingdom? I mean Jorah is of the First Men. 

Yes, that is what is known. I was just throwing it out there to see if there was anything I missed cuz' it could have changed a theory I was mulling around. 

It didn't :P

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Why did Ser Mandon Moore pick that moment to kill Tyrion? It looked like he was going to die anyway and he could have made it look accidental some time in the previous fighting. 

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8 hours ago, syrinx said:

Sam is clearly talking about blood relations though.

I have to disagree. Sam is planning to pretend that the child is his son, but as Sam is going to train at the Citadel and next return to the Wall, he will not be involved at all in the boy's upbringing. But Gilly, Craster's daughter, is going to be. In addition to that, neither Dalla and Val nor Mance have any relations to Craster.

"It's strange," he said to Sam. "Craster had no love for Mance, nor Mance for Craster, but now Craster's daughter is feeding Mance's son."

That Craster's daughter (Gilly) is feeding Mance's son would not be a strange thing if the child's mother had been Craster's daughter to start with, right?

 

What Sam means, is that the child inherited Mance's bravery, and through Gilly's manner of raising him will get Craster's bravery (as Craster passed that on to Gilly).

 Gilly would keep going even if that happened. The girl was very brave, not like him. 

So whether through blood relations, or adoptive relations, Sam's claim that the child is his son will not lead to the child "getting" any of Sam's "cravenness".

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime...

Type "sam mance craster grandson son site:asoiaf.westeros.org" into Google. 

Thanks ;-)

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9 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Why did Ser Mandon Moore pick that moment to kill Tyrion? It looked like he was going to die anyway and he could have made it look accidental some time in the previous fighting. 

I am sure it is a matter of speculation, though no one ever said that Mandon Moore was the sharpest tac in the box.

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Finally doing my first re-read, and I've been noticing several quotes I had overlooked the first time. There are a couple I found yesterday which I would like to know which is (if any) the standard interpretation by the community. (I have used the forum's search function, but the results I obtained didn't help much.

They both appear in Eddard IV AGOT:

1)

Quote

He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

What plead is Ned referring to? Do we know of any moment Lyanna had tried to stop someone killing/hurting anyone?

2)

Quote
It would not be the first time Ned had been forced to make common cause with a man he despised.

Is Ned referring to Jaime during Robert's rebellion? or someone else I am forgetting now?

Obviously, there might be no agreed interpretation, but I feel that those two in particular should have been discussed over and over, and maybe the community has reached some satisfying consensus.

Thanks!

 

 

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