If Robb didn't have to marry a Frey, who do you think he'd have married?

[HexMachina]

4 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I am well aware of that. But Arya was married to the fifth son, and a noted adventurer, of Lord Beron not the first and heir Donnor or even Willam. That is why I clarified it by saying;

 

And House Locke? Edward's grandmother? They are no lower than the Mormons either

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, HelenaExMachina said:

And House Locke? Edward's grandmother? They are no lower than the Mormons either

True. But at least they were Kings before and they had lands in the inland which could mean that they had some kind of wealth and she most likely had a known father and a not exiled uncle.

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, PrinceThatWasPromised said:

Best way to tie Theon and Robb as brothers without having to marry off Sansa. Have Theon marry Wynafred, give him some land like Sea Dragon Point. Have Robb marry Wylla Manderly. Manderlys are the richest house in the North and loyal bannerman. Theon becomes a loyal bannerman as well. Hell the North could even start building a real fleet.

Also I know some people said Wynafred was being raised as heiress, but if there was no need for Robb to go South for WOTFK, Wylis is the true heir and his wife loves him. Very much. No reason to believe they wouldn't continue trying for a son if he was away at war.

Theon and the Ironborn would never bend the knee to the Starks.

If Robb didn't marry a Frey, I suspect he'd marry a daughter of one of his major vassals.

[norwaywolf123]

On 4.3.2016 at 11:38 AM, James Steller said:

Personally, I think it would have been Dacey Mormont. She's pretty much his Brienne already; a very capable warrior who serves as his bodyguard and is devoted to him. She and Robb would have made a great couple. Plus their kids would have been Stark wolves with the size and strength of Mormont bears, ha ha.

Though I'm not sure if the daughter of one of his own bannermen would be seen as a good match for Robb, even if she's technically the heir to House Mormont.

Dacey is to old i think Alys Karstark, Wylla Manderly are more likely or some umber

[tugela]

Wylla Manderly would have made a poor choice for a queen. For one thing, she can't keep her mouth shut when diplomacy is required, even when straight up told to do so repeatedly. She is stupid and impetuous. Also, she has dyed her hair bright green, and I rather suspect that most of the northern lords would be reluctant to bend the knee to a punk princess. There was no political advantage to be gained since the Manderlys were already loyal bannermen.

The best bride for Robb was Roslyn Frey. He never actually met her before he bolted and married Jeyne Westerling, but she turned out to be a beauty and have a sweet nature. Robb assumed that she would be frumpy like all the other Freys, but Walder had many wives and presumably Roslyns mother had better genes than the rest. The big advantage of Roslyn was that it would have secured an alliance with the Freys, who were a critical strategic force in the Riverlands. By dishonoring Roslyn in breaking his vows and marrying Jeyne he essentially threw his kingdom away.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Hmmm, well if we are assuming he didn't marry Jeyne Westerling, I think there are a few different options. 

1. No war. Robb eventually inherits as Lord of Winterfell, I would go with Alys Karstark or Jonelle Cerwyn. Usually, with the exception of during ASOIAF times, Lords Paramount married lower Lords children. 

2. There is a war, somehow Robb gets past the Twins and doesn't marry Jeyne Westerling. In this case, there are a lot of options. One option I would have liked Robb to pursue was marrying Maergerry Tyrell. Get the Tyrells on the Starks side. After all, I assume the only reason it was never discussed was that he was owed to a Frey girl. Another option in a similar vein would have been....Lysa Arryn. Yes, I know, she is his aunt, and yes I know, she is much older than him. But it could have brought the Arryns and therefore the Vale into their cause.

3. Finally, if he hadn't been able to get either of these great houses on his side, I would say perhaps another riverlord's daughter to show them favor. Characters like Jonelle Cerwyn, Dacey Mormont, and Aly Karstark are still possible, but so are Bethany Blackwood, Barbara Braken, or Liane Vance.

4. Another option is Ysilla Royce. She wasn't married to the Redfort boy tell AFFC, and perhaps that could have brought a lot, if not most of the Valish lords onto their side. 

[UnFit Finlay]

2 minutes ago, tugela said:

The best bride for Robb was Roslyn Frey. He never actually met her before he bolted and married Jeyne Westerling, but she turned out to be a beauty and have a sweet nature. Robb assumed that she would be frumpy like all the other Freys, but Walder had many wives and presumably Roslyns mother had better genes than the rest. The big advantage of Roslyn was that it would have secured an alliance with the Freys, who were a critical strategic force in the Riverlands. By dishonoring Roslyn in breaking his vows and marrying Jeyne he essentially threw his kingdom away.

Would it?

I'm sure Tytos Lannister made a similar argument when he married his only daughter to Walder's second son but that alliance only lasted until Robb came along with a better offer. You could make the same argument about his relationship with the Tullys - He was supposed to be their vassel, yet he ignored them in Robert's Rebellion and held them to ransom at the start of the War of Five Kings. I don't think there's any such thing as a "secure alliance with the Freys".

For me, the marriage that really spelled the end of Robb's alliance with the Freys was Roose marrying Fat Walda. Walder's an opportunist, and a coward. He was happy to side with Robb when things were on his side, but once the tide turned (Blackwater, the Alliance with Martells and Tyrells, losing the Karstarks and Roose's numerous sabotages) he must have been desperate to switch sides. Roose was clearly working against Robb from the beginning, and once he got Walder's ear, it was only a matter of time before the Freys joined in the betrayal.

All Robb marrying Jeyne did was give Walder an excuse. If it hadn't happened he'd have found something else. Most likely the Red Wedding would've happened when Robb married Roslin and the Freys would've just used the "The Northmen turned into Wolves and attacked us" shtick.

On topic, I actually think Ned would've let Robb marry for love, rather than politics. He seemed reluctant to betroth Sansa and Joffrey, the future King, and only seemed to agree to it because it was Robert, his friend and King, who was asking. I think he saw the destruction that Lyanna's betrothal caused and was reluctant to put his children in that position. I can't think of any suggestion that either he or Cat were actively looking for matches, which is apparently unusual at his age given that Doran was deliberately making unsuitable matches for Arianne to avoid questions being asked.

Similarly, I think in peace times, Robb would also have married for love rather than duty.

[Lord Vance II]

2 hours ago, tugela said:

She is stupid and impetuous. Also, she has dyed her hair bright green, and I rather suspect that most of the northern lords would be reluctant to bend the knee to a punk princess.

Whoh whoh, calm down. She's young and never had to be queenly, she could figure it out. So what if she dyed her hair, she can let it go back, and if the Northern Lords could accept anyone having green hair, it would probably be a Manderly girl, they are the mermen aren't they? And would they bend the knee to her? I don't remember, but they might not kneel if it's just the Lady. 

She's fiercely loyal to Robb and the Starks, and fierce in general, which I think Robb would like. She has spunk and character, something that is seemingly lacking in the North. The kind of person the smallfolk might take pride in. 

Plus her dad is one of the top lords non-paramount. And is a total boss who's saving the North, but I'll leave my love of Wyman Manderly out of this. 

But yeah, if he was going to stay North, Wylla is the obvious choice. It's a crap shoot south of the Neck.

[Lord Estermont]

He married Jeyne, end of story. At 16 i hardly think he had any concerns over the matter. He didnt have to marry anyone, the one love interest he had he married it. 

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, UnFit Finlay said:

Would it?

I'm sure Tytos Lannister made a similar argument when he married his only daughter to Walder's second son but that alliance only lasted until Robb came along with a better offer. You could make the same argument about his relationship with the Tullys - He was supposed to be their vassel, yet he ignored them in Robert's Rebellion and held them to ransom at the start of the War of Five Kings. I don't think there's any such thing as a "secure alliance with the Freys".

For me, the marriage that really spelled the end of Robb's alliance with the Freys was Roose marrying Fat Walda. Walder's an opportunist, and a coward. He was happy to side with Robb when things were on his side, but once the tide turned (Blackwater, the Alliance with Martells and Tyrells, losing the Karstarks and Roose's numerous sabotages) he must have been desperate to switch sides. Roose was clearly working against Robb from the beginning, and once he got Walder's ear, it was only a matter of time before the Freys joined in the betrayal.

All Robb marrying Jeyne did was give Walder an excuse. If it hadn't happened he'd have found something else. Most likely the Red Wedding would've happened when Robb married Roslin and the Freys would've just used the "The Northmen turned into Wolves and attacked us" shtick.

On topic, I actually think Ned would've let Robb marry for love, rather than politics. He seemed reluctant to betroth Sansa and Joffrey, the future King, and only seemed to agree to it because it was Robert, his friend and King, who was asking. I think he saw the destruction that Lyanna's betrothal caused and was reluctant to put his children in that position. I can't think of any suggestion that either he or Cat were actively looking for matches, which is apparently unusual at his age given that Doran was deliberately making unsuitable matches for Arianne to avoid questions being asked.

Similarly, I think in peace times, Robb would also have married for love rather than duty.

George says that the Red Wedding was a direct response to Robbs insult. The Freys had stayed loyal until Robb insulted them. It was Robbs fault.

[UnViserion]

Cersei Lannister

[thelittledragonthatcould]

11 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

On topic, I actually think Ned would've let Robb marry for love, rather than politics. He seemed reluctant to betroth Sansa and Joffrey, the future King, and only seemed to agree to it because it was Robert, his friend and King, who was asking. I think he saw the destruction that Lyanna's betrothal caused and was reluctant to put his children in that position. I can't think of any suggestion that either he or Cat were actively looking for matches, which is apparently unusual at his age given that Doran was deliberately making unsuitable matches for Arianne to avoid questions being asked.

 

Arianne was a woman of 24 in an era were females had a far smaller window of being able to conceive healthy children. Robb was 15 when Ned Stark left. There was simply no rush for him to be married at that point but it seems very unlikely that he would have allowed their children to marry whoever they wanted.

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

 

Ned and Cat had an arranged marriage, they are unlikely to see it as a negative arrangement. It is part and parcel of their society and one of the happiest couples are unlikely to be an advocate of change. Robb, Sansa and Arya would have arranged marriages, they might get a say in it but they are marrying nobles of their station who their parents actively want. Bran and Rickon might be offered more independence, especially if Robb was to have an heir first.

[Good Guy Garlan]

No wot5k: Alys Karstark, Lyanna Mormont, Meera Reed, etc, though Wylla Manderly would've been my choice because of that juicy dowry. 

An out of the box option would've been Val or a high profile wildling girl, in case Ned wanted to populate the Gift with the wildlings. The northern lords would then be encouraged to follow their liege's lead and be more willing to marry the wildlings, thus enabling an easier assimilation process. 

Wot5K happens but Robb doesn't have to marry a Frey girl: Ysilla Royce would've been my choice, since Yohn Royce was pushing for the Vale to enter the fray and his daughter being queen could've been the push he needed to disobey Lysa's ban, and maybe other Vale Houses would've followed him too. 

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, Good Guy Garlan said:

No wot5k: Alys Karstark, Lyanna Mormont, Meera Reed, etc, though Wylla Manderly would've been my choice because of that juicy dowry. 

An out of the box option would've been Val or a high profile wildling girl, in case Ned wanted to populate the Gift with the wildlings. The northern lords would then be encouraged to follow their liege's lead and be more willing to marry the wildlings, thus enabling an easier assimilation process. 

Wot5K happens but Robb doesn't have to marry a Frey girl: Ysilla Royce would've been my choice, since Yohn Royce was pushing for the Vale to enter the fray and his daughter being queen could've been the push he needed to disobey Lysa's ban, and maybe other Vale Houses would've followed him too. 

To get out of the Vale you need to pass right in front of the Eyrie. Lysa wouldn't allow it.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Just now, Lee-Sensei said:

To get out of the Vale you need to pass right in front of the Eyrie. Lysa wouldn't allow it.

Not Yohn Royce. He's got several ports, and I'm guessing a few ships. Manderly would provide the rest. 

[Zaydan]

If there's no war, and Ned stays as The Hand, then Robb would be married to the daughter of another prominent lord, not into one of the vassals'. I know that Ned would probably be repulsed by the idea of such political marriage, but Robert would've insisted upon it, and Catelyn would probably drill the idea even further, just like she did when Robert offered The Hand's position.

So probably Margaery. Both are of the same age. The Tyrells are much wealthier, but the Starks are much more respected. Plus Ned is The Hand. And Mace holds no position in King's Landing and iirc his family is nowhere near the power cycle (well, except Loras). Really, this would be the best option for Mace because Joffrey is already bethroted to Sansa and Robb is of the highest stature that he could hope for his one and only daughter.

[Knight of the Red Tree]

Clearly the first woman who managed to seize her claws around him.

...

Given that Jeyne "conforted" Robb with sex after his father's death, if "Robina Stark" and "Jeff Westerling" were two people living today, and Jeff did the same thing to Robina that Jeyne did to Robb, would y'all say that Jeff took advantage of Robina? lol

[MinotaurWarrior]

If he never crossed the twins, and basically had to wrap up his rebellion early, I think he would have married Asha after slaughtering the Ironborn. They would have almost certainly launched their invasion by the time he went back up the neck, and he would need a claim to seize the islands and purge them of the old ways.

 

If he made it past the twins without having to get betrothed (say, by betrothing  both his brothers to waldas) then I think he would have married Jeyne Westerling, possibly breaking a marriage pact with the Tyrells (to Megga at the time of swearing, and to Marge by the time of breaking). The other option would be, as previously mentioned, the unnamed female Royce, if Robb went rast to try and marshall the Vale.

[Dukhasinov]

How is anyone suggesting that Robb marry into the Tyrells or Aryns? Any Great House that weds their daughter to Robb Stark joins him in his rebellion against the Iron Throne, and neither Highgarden nor the Eirie were interested in doing that. It would have been prudent to include an offer to marry Asha with his proposal to Balon Greyjoy. But, of course, that wouldn`t have worked out. Dacey Mormont or  Wylla Manderly 

[Dukhasinov]

1 hour ago, Zaydan said:

If there's no war, and Ned stays as The Hand, then Robb would be married to the daughter of another prominent lord, not into one of the vassals'. I know that Ned would probably be repulsed by the idea of such political marriage, but Robert would've insisted upon it, and Catelyn would probably drill the idea even further, just like she did when Robert offered The Hand's position.

So probably Margaery. Both are of the same age. The Tyrells are much wealthier, but the Starks are much more respected. Plus Ned is The Hand. And Mace holds no position in King's Landing and iirc his family is nowhere near the power cycle (well, except Loras). Really, this would be the best option for Mace because Joffrey is already bethroted to Sansa and Robb is of the highest stature that he could hope for his one and only daughter.

Why would Ned be repulsed by the idea of a political marriage? His own marriage was political. That`s the norm. And Lords Paramount usually marry the daughters of their more powerful Nobles, not the daughters of other Great Houses. This is often remarked upon in talking about the "Southron Ambition" conspiracy. Rickard Stark conspired to marry his daughter to the Lord of Storm`s End, and his eldest son to the daughter of the Lord of Riverrun, creating a power-block of Great Houses that could challenge the Iron Throne and the excesses of the Mad King.