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Barbossa

Would you be ok with the Boltons surviving the series?

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Roose and Ramsey are both as close to cartoon villains as you get in this series.  As a result i think we will get pretty close to a neat and clean "Disney" ending for House Bolton.  That is to say, the good characters will act almost unreasonably honorably and the Boltons will essentially exterminate themselves.  Like for example, Ramsey will kill Walda + Baby.  Someone will kill Ramsey in self defense. Then whoever is the stark in winterfell will execute Roose for stabbing Robb Stark.  End of house Bolton.

Now personally, I do think (hope?) that a character like a Jon or a Dany would be merciful towards a baby Bolton.  If not allow him to inherit at least give him to the faith or something.  But i just don't think GRRM has the pages or the will to explore this issue yet again very deeply.  He'll take the easy way out.

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As someone mentioned Freys, it would be mighty amusing to have all 700 or so Freys killed so that their house goes extinguished, but leave one of two Boltons alive so their house lives on. You can't outbreed the author's penchant for killing.

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Coldhands will turn out to be Domeric and redeem them :P

OK, actually, I'd probably be OK with Roose surviving. He's a more interesting villain than Ramsay. And obviously I have noting against his unborn child

I think, though, that it's unlikely; there's too much antipathy towards them, they have no natural allies now apart from the Freys and the dissident faction amongst the Karstarks, both of whom are in precarious positions themselves (whether they know it or not)

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3 hours ago, Rusty Winchester said:

See this Roose story is one I have a bit of trouble with.  My memory might be failing me here, but is the source for this story not in fact Roose himself?  We know he is capable of great cruelty, and in fact openly states that he believes in using fear as a weapon to keep people in check.  Is it possible that he invented this story for that purpose, or just to keep Ramsay in check, remind him of what he is? The only reason I suspect this, is that while we have plenty of examples of Roose doing incredibly cruel things, they otherwise always seem to serve a purpose.  I can't think of any examples of him engaging in cruelty just for the sheer joy of it, which is certainly what the story of Ramsay's conception would seem to be.  Please feel free to correct me on this point, I can't deny I might be whitewashing the actions of an undeniably bad dude just because I find him interesting.

I think it's the same conversation with Ramsay, when Roose is telling him off because stories are spreading about him, Roose says 'no one ever told tales of me', or something like that. So I reckon Roose is equally sadistic but he has always made sure to leave no witnesses. Could be a few tongueless men in the environs of the Dreadfort, not just the miller's brother.

Actually I think that Roose is setting up Ramsay to take the fall if they are defeated - he may execute, even flay him, to satisfy the Northern lords or an avenging Stark/Jon Snow. But it won't save him in the end.

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4 hours ago, Rusty Winchester said:

We know he is capable of great cruelty, and in fact openly states that he believes in using fear as a weapon to keep people in check.

Roose tries to keep things quiet, actually.

Quote
Roose: "By the king's decree you are now a Bolton. Try and act like one. Tales are told of you, Ramsay. I hear them everywhere. People fear you."
 
Ramsay: "Good."
 
Roose: "You are mistaken. It is not good. No tales were ever told of me. Do you think I would be sitting here if it were otherwise? Your amusements are your own, I will not chide you on that count, but you must be more discreet. A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule. Make it yours." (ADWD Reek III)

Roose tells Reek/Theon that it is good to be fearful and wary, since it keeps one safer.

Quote
Roose: "Bulls are strong. Bears. I have seen my bastard fight. He is not entirely to blame. Reek was his tutor, the first Reek, and Reek was never trained at arms. Ramsay is ferocious, I will grant you, but he swings that sword like a butcher hacking meat."
 
Reek: "He's not afraid of anyone, m'lord."
 
Roose: "He should be. Fear is what keeps a man alive in this world of treachery and deceit. Even here in Barrowton the crows are circling, waiting to feast upon our flesh. The Cerwyns and the Tallharts are not to be relied on, my fat friend Lord Wyman plots betrayal, and Whoresbane … the Umbers may seem simple, but they are not without a certain low cunning. Ramsay should fear them all, as I do. The next time you see him, tell him that." (ADWD Reek III)

While certain northmen like Wyman and Robett despise Roose for betraying the Starks, he is more accepted than Ramsay.

Quote
"He won't ever be my lord! He made Lady Hornwood marry him, then shut her in a dungeon and made her eat her fingers."
 
A murmur of assent swept the Merman's Court. "The maid tells it true," declared a stocky man in white and purple, whose cloak was fastened with a pair of crossed bronze keys. "Roose Bolton's cold and cunning, aye, but a man can deal with Roose. We've all known worse. But this bastard son of his … they say he's mad and cruel, a monster." (ADWD Davos III)

Justin Massey believes that Roose is feared, though.

Quote

"Our foes are not as formidable as they appear," Ser Justin assured Asha on the first day of the march. "Roose Bolton is feared, but little loved. And his friends the Freys … the north has not forgotten the Red Wedding. Every lord at Winterfell lost kinsmen there. Stannis need only bloody Bolton, and the northmen will abandon him."  (ADWD The King's Prize)

 

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On 3/30/2016 at 8:30 AM, Barbossa said:

Simple question really, i don't just mean the major players from the house, i mean the whole house itself. Personally i wouldn't, their a house of traitors cunts and i wish to see them wiped out for all the shit they did in the present and in the past.

Hopefully the Starks ( if they somehow get back into power) wise up for once and wipe them out.

 

 

It depends on which Bolton.  Ramsay needs to die.  He's just a loose thread that can unravel to cause problems down the road.  Roose is fine.  I would be perfectly fine with Roose surviving and even keeping his lordship over Winterfell and the North if he bends his knees and swear fealty to Dany. 

 

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6 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Would you apply the same logic on Robb and say his death was his own making? I won't blame the other poor lords who died in the Red Wedding.

You can blame Robb for making poor decisions that led to his eventual betrayal by Roose and Walder. However, you can't blame Robb for the Red Wedding. The Freys broke sacred guest right and the Boltons helped them accomplish it. That's why Freys are being hanged indiscriminately in the Riverlands and baked into pies in the North. The Red Wedding is an action that leads to disproportionate retribution and it's why House Bolton and House Frey are likely to be exterminated. Even the innocents who were not involved with that atrocity will probably not be spared. That's how great the trauma of the Red Wedding was in the books. It has caused a lot of characters who were directly affected by it to abandon normal moral thinking in relation to Freys and I don't doubt the same will hold true for the Boltons when they're participation is discovered.

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6 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Roose and Ramsey are both as close to cartoon villains as you get in this series.  As a result i think we will get pretty close to a neat and clean "Disney" ending for House Bolton.  That is to say, the good characters will act almost unreasonably honorably and the Boltons will essentially exterminate themselves.  Like for example, Ramsey will kill Walda + Baby.  Someone will kill Ramsey in self defense. Then whoever is the stark in winterfell will execute Roose for stabbing Robb Stark.  End of house Bolton.

Even though I want the Boltons to end I don't want it to go down like this. 

I don't want the Starks to be fair, honorable and good towards their enemies. I don't want their enemies to destroy themselves. I want Jon and Ghost standing over the dead bodies of Boltons and Freys alike and Lannisters if they can get ahold of any. I want Nymeria and Arya along with Lady Stoneheart doing their parts in the Riverlands. I want Sansa laugh when she hears about the downfall and deaths of her families enemies and murderers. Bran should try to get an alliance with the Others and Jon should lead them to the Twins, Casterly Rock, and the Red Keep. Hell I need Rickon to become one with Skaggos. Seriously I have no desire to see the Starks be honoable and good. 

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1 minute ago, Winter's Cold said:

You can blame Robb for making  poor decisions that led to his eventual betrayal by Roose and Walder. However, you can't blame Robb for the Red Wedding. The Freys broke sacred guest right and the Boltons helped them accomplish it. That's why Freys are being hanged indiscriminately in the Riverlands and baked into pies in the North. The Red Wedding is an action that leads to disproportionate retribution and it's why House Bolton and House Frey are likely to be exterminated. Even the innocents who were not involved with that atrocity will probably not be spared. That's how great the trauma of the Red Wedding was in the books. It has caused a lot of characters who were directly affected by it to abandon normal moral thinking in relation to Freys and I don't doubt the same will hold true for the Boltons when they're participation is discovered.

 I don't doubt the people who were affected by the red wedding will be more willing to kill the Freys or Boltons indiscriminately. That is the bitter truth. 

But being ready to kill innocents and people who cheer for it, that is what I am having problem with. If you are justifying that by saying they brought it on themselves the red wedding could be justified with the same logic.

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Whatever Martin writes I will accept.

What I want to read is that Roose sitting at the table in WF enjoying his meal suddenly gets slashed and stabbed while the northmen shout, "The north remembers."

Ramsey, well, I envision him coming upon ReeK and while he is debasing Reek, Reek says, "Yes, M'Lord" and then Theon pulls out a dagger and guts the bastard.

As to Roose's wife, he don't care two snoot fulls about her. He made a deal with Walder to gain Walder's compliance. I am sorry that she is in the position she is in, but the way things in Westeros work, she is a problem.

 

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1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

Even though I want the Boltons to end I don't want it to go down like this. 

I don't want the Starks to be fair, honorable and good towards their enemies. I don't want their enemies to destroy themselves. I want Jon and Ghost standing over the dead bodies of Boltons and Freys alike and Lannisters if they can get ahold of any. I want Nymeria and Arya along with Lady Stoneheart doing their parts in the Riverlands. I want Sansa laugh when she hears about the downfall and deaths of her families enemies and murderers. Bran should try to get an alliance with the Others and Jon should lead them to the Twins, Casterly Rock, and the Red Keep. Hell I need Rickon to become one with Skaggos. Seriously I have no desire to see the Starks be honoable and good. 

Well that's pretty fucked up if you ask me.  If you have that attitude, it's exactly as justifiable for someone (a Frey or Bolton) who survives this Stark genocide/child murder to later go on to commit genocide themselves.  And then the cycle continues.  

ETA: anyway even if ruthless vengeance against innocent bystanders with a particular name interests you, I seriously doubt that the message that GRRM wants to send is that killing innocents is in anyway satisfying.  So far he's avoided doing so with the Boltons since there appear to only be 2 of them and both are disgusting monsters who deserve death anyway.  And I'm guessing he'll stick with that.

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I would certainly not be OK with Roose or Ramsay surviving. Their crimes against the North are too great and for that reason I really can't see them surviving. The Bolton baby is another matter. I despise child murderers and therefore could really not support total extermination. However, there's no way the Bolton baby can be allowed to inherit the Dreadfort, at least not without losing the lordship and pretty much all the land. The Boltons have been fighting the Starks for centuries, so this can't be waved aside as a bad generation. But this time they betrayed the entire North - the Starks cannot let the Boltons get away with that. They will have to show that they are fair and just by punishing the traitors and rewarding the loyal vassals. If the Bolton baby is a boy, he should be raised at Winterfell then sent to the Wall when he's old enough. A girl could be allowed to inherit the Dreadfort (with reduced lands) but she should be married to someone loyal and would therefore lose the name. However, I think there's a good chance that Ramsay will kill the baby or some other northman in vengeance (after all, the baby is unfortunately also half Frey).

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Like many people already pointed out, I wouldn't mind Fat Walda and her child surviving the series. Though, if a a rebellion starts and Roose and Ramsay get lynched, I don't know if Fat Walda would be spared, as she is both Frey and Bolton.

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Personally, I'd like to see the whole of House Bolton reduced to nothing.

Presuming that we see a Stark-friendly North at the end of the series, I think this is what we'll see. The history of Westeros sets a precedent for disloyalty resulting in the complete destruction of a House. This is not to say they will all be butchered, though; I'm thinking something more similar to what happened to House Hollard. The same precedent applies even if Walda is pregnant w/ a Botlon baby - remember that Westeros is a setting where the sins of the father transfer to the child (ala bastards and wards).

House Stark would be making quite a rebound - one that couldn't come without a great deal of help. Someone providing this assistance could be elevated to a Lordship and provided with the land and holdings of House Bolton.

One such person that comes to my mind is, possibly, Davos. A theme of his character arc is growing from a humble smuggler to someone of elevated position. He's now a knight and Hand of a king that, if the show is any indication, may not be around too much longer. Currently he's on a personal/secret mission to provide direct assistance to those loyal to the Starks and may be instrumental in protecting the Stark line through Rickon.

Thoughts? If this were to happen, can anyone think of any of people that are uniquely positioned to be elevated in such a way? 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Mathias said:

House Stark would be making quite a rebound - one that couldn't come without a great deal of help. Someone providing this assistance could be elevated to a Lordship and provided with the land and holdings of House Bolton.

One such person that comes to my mind is, possibly, Davos. A theme of his character arc is growing from a humble smuggler to someone of elevated position. He's now a knight and Hand of a king that, if the show is any indication, may not be around too much longer. Currently he's on a personal/secret mission to provide direct assistance to those loyal to the Starks and may be instrumental in protecting the Stark line through Rickon.

Thoughts? If this were to happen, can anyone think of any of people that are uniquely positioned to be elevated in such a way? 

 

 

It's possible I suppose but I think it would be more likely to go to a northman. I think the most likely candidate would be a Manderly because they will surely be the main driving force behind House Stark's restoration and would therefore deserve a pretty hefty reward (not to mention that there's a good chance they'll be in charge during Rickon's minority). At the very least I see most of the Bolton lands going to the Manderlys, even if not the castle itself. Maybe the castle could go to a loyal (and surviving) Winterfell man like Hal Mollen or Harwin.

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3 minutes ago, Mathias said:

Personally, I'd like to see the whole of House Bolton reduced to nothing.

Presuming that we see a Stark-friendly North at the end of the series, I think this is what we'll see. The history of Westeros sets a precedent for disloyalty resulting in the complete destruction of a House. This is not to say they will all be butchered, though; I'm thinking something more similar to what happened to House Hollard. The same precedent applies even if Walda is pregnant w/ a Botlon baby - remember that Westeros is a setting where the sins of the father transfer to the child (ala bastards and wards).

House Stark would be making quite a rebound - one that couldn't come without a great deal of help. Someone providing this assistance could be elevated to a Lordship and provided with the land and holdings of House Bolton.

One such person that comes to my mind is, possibly, Davos. A theme of his character arc is growing from a humble smuggler to someone of elevated position. He's now a knight and Hand of a king that, if the show is any indication, may not be around too much longer. Currently he's on a personal/secret mission to provide direct assistance to those loyal to the Starks and may be instrumental in protecting the Stark line through Rickon.

Thoughts? If this were to happen, can anyone think of any of people that are uniquely positioned to be elevated in such a way? 

I think Davos is definitely going to be Jon's adviser once Stannis dies, which show kinda spoiled for us. And for his support and counsel Jon, as Lord of Winterfell, will give White Harbor, the biggest city and strongest port of the North, to the Onion Knight. Given Davos' surname is Seaworth and how he has experience with ships, he is a natural selection to rebuild and command the northern fleet. His seat in Rainwood is captured by Golden Company and it is unknown what happened to his wife and two remaining sons, so story wise he needs to attach himself to some political power. As it happens he is about to have a mini journey with the youngest of Starks, Rickon.

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Roose Bolton is more capable than any of Ned's heirs.  Robb's head is tarred and decorates the gates of the twins.  Sansa has the IQ of a pond slug.  Jon destroyed the Night's Watch with his incompetence.  Who else is there besides Roose who can get the job done?  Don't tell me Stannis.  Stannis just got his hairy ass and his wrinkled balls handed to him by a dwarf in Blackwater Bay. 

Robb swore an oath to Walder, Robb broke his oaths, Robb lost his head.  Let's look back in history.  Hoster Tully demanded the marriage of his soiled daughter to Jon Arryn before he would support the rebellion of robert.  Walder asked the same of Robb and his daughters were still pure.  Robb agreed.  Walder gave Robb more than he asked for and became the biggest contributor to Robb's army.  I ask you all to think this through.  Robb deserved what he got.  Yes, it was harsh but was there really any other way for Walder to punish Robb without going all the way?  Walder can't play surgeon and just kill Robb.  Catelyn and the Tullys would scream for payback and burn down the twins.  Walder had to take out the nuclear warheads and take down the whole rebellion of the foolish king in the north.  It served the greater good when it forced the end of the northern rebellion.

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