Season 6 Hookups!

[Le Cygne]

Also you can't use the outline as a hint, and have it one way but ignore the rest. Sansa wasn't even a main character or one he named to survive in the outline, so that's a leap saying she can be swapped for Arya and will be queen based on that. He still wrote that Arya and Jon love each other, they think of each other as often as Sansa thinks of Sandor, which is a hell of a lot. Sansa thinks of Sandor's cloak more than Jon.

One change from the outline, he makes sure the Lannister marriage is not consummated (show tosses it out on that basis). And adds a very detailed series spanning beauty and the beast story with Sansa and the Hound, and they went there with beauty and the beast hints for them on the show repeatedly. Lots of marriage and kids hints in the books, and show kept key moments (also said expect callbacks to earlier seasons this season).

There's no basis to rule out SanSan while entertaining Sansa and Jon at all. Quite the contrary.

[kissdbyfire]

53 minutes ago, bb1180 said:

In any other story,  I might be inclined to agree.  In this one, though,  Martin himself has already set the precedent for that type of thing in several instances.  And as mysel656 mentioned,  Martin had actually planned this exact type of thing to occur with Jon and Arya instead,  so if its a bad idea,  it was actually Martin's,  at least at one time.
 

Martin is not going to go there with Jon/Arya or Jon/Sansa. Jon is not going to become the suddenly suitable suitor, it's been done unto death, and it's boring. Not only that, but there's no Cersei in the original outline, only Jaime. It seems to me he kept the incest, but with different characters. And instead of making it a clichéd love story with secret princes and forbidden love, etc, etc, he made it one of the most toxic relationships in the books, if not the most toxic. 

Show wise? Anything goes, I suppose. I'm really struggling here to think of any hook up I'd actually like to see... I'd ship Stranger with Silver, but they killed Silver. Yeah, I got nothing. I'm not even sure I can ship SanSan, one of my faves in the books, b/c on the show Sansa is a different person, and I'm not sure I want to inflict her on Sandor. 

[The Arthur Smith]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

And instead of making it a clichéd love story with secret princes and forbidden love, etc, etc, he made it one of the most toxic relationships in the books, if not the most toxic. 

This. I don't see GRMM making his shippings canon likewise. Hooking Jon up with any of his cousins or Dany and then having a happy ending is just bad storytelling by Martin's standards.

Having to focus on the romance is null and not worth it for a while when you are surviving in a game surround by schemers and players, and especially facing the apocalypse of the White Walkers/Others.

So I doubt Sansa and Sandor will meet again nor their relationship will be canon. Sandor's purpose to Sansa is to prove her the reality of the world and be Sansa's morality pet (and vice versa). That is all. Sandor's role with Sansa is done in S2/Clash.

[Le Cygne]

Sansa and Sandor's story becomes more intense after he leaves. And the author said there's something there and there's more to come. Sandor is in the story for Sansa. His interactions throughout the first two books are focused on her, and the whole time he's with Arya, he's yapping about her (and the show hinted this repeatedly, with several Blackwater callbacks, and they say expect more callbacks from earlier seasons this season).

He "died" thinking about her on the show, too, and they even hinted beauty and the beast last season, and now he's returning. He's returning to the story, books and show, for Sansa. They had him say, "Ask her who came back for her." And that's not even getting into her side of the story, which is off the charts focused on him after he leaves in the books, and they hinted on the show, too (they are very bad at showing missing each other, but they do hint a lot).

[Le Cygne]

15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm not even sure I can ship SanSan, one of my faves in the books, b/c on the show Sansa is a different person, and I'm not sure I want to inflict her on Sandor. 

I want to see SanSan and Jaime/Brienne, just because I like the stories in the books. I want a pretty scene or two, that's all I'm in it for with the show. I agree, she's a mess on the show, but I think Rory Sandor is up to the challenge.

[Winter's Cold]

1 hour ago, bb1180 said:

My thought on Sansa is that,  like many characters,  Sansa is going to get exactly what she wanted,  but at a very steep price.  At the start of the books and the series,  Sansa wanted to be queen more than anything.  I think she will be,  of the North and possibly even of the IT,  but it will come at the cost of her family and much personal pain and torment.  

Her desire to be queen already lead to the cost of her family, personal pain and torment in the first three books. She'll probably die due to her participation in Littlefinger's schemes. Covering up Lysa's death, poisoning Sweetrobin, seducing Harry the heir and deceiving the Vale's lords will have negative consequences.

Characters typically don't get what they want in this story either. Robert lost Lyanna. Rhaegar never got the chance to become king. Viserys died a beggar prince. Bran will likely never be a knight. Littlefinger never got to be with Catelyn. Why would Sansa achieve her desire to be queen?

[239JMFL34109]

1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said:

Her desire to be queen already lead to the cost of her family, personal pain and torment in the first three books. She'll probably die due to her participation in Littlefinger's schemes. Covering up Lysa's death, poisoning Sweetrobin, seducing Harry the heir and deceiving the Vale's lords will have negative consequences.

Characters typically don't get what they want in this story either. Robert lost Lyanna. Rhaegar never got the chance to become king. Viserys died a beggar prince. Bran will likely never be a knight. Littlefinger never got to be with Catelyn. Why would Sansa achieve her desire to be queen?

Was her desire to be a queen or to be in this fairy tale where knights would fight for her nobly and she would wear a new dress every day?

I don't think she really thought about the reality of BEING queen. 

also we don't know know that rhaegar really wanted to be king or etc...

[239JMFL34109]

58 minutes ago, The Arthur Smith said:

This. I don't see GRMM making his shippings canon likewise. Hooking Jon up with any of his cousins or Dany and then having a happy ending is just bad storytelling by Martin's standards.

Having to focus on the romance is null and not worth it for a while when you are surviving in a game surround by schemers and players, and especially facing the apocalypse of the White Walkers/Others.

So I doubt Sansa and Sandor will meet again nor their relationship will be canon. Sandor's purpose to Sansa is to prove her the reality of the world and be Sansa's morality pet (and vice versa). That is all. Sandor's role with Sansa is done in S2/Clash.

I could see any number of hook ups but not really romantic. For land, for peace, for etc.. but not anything i could see as a romantic happy ending. 

[bb1180]

14 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Characters typically don't get what they want in this story either. Robert lost Lyanna. Rhaegar never got the chance to become king. Viserys died a beggar prince. Bran will likely never be a knight. Littlefinger never got to be with Catelyn. Why would Sansa achieve her desire to be queen?

Well,  that's the point.  Sansa isn't actually getting what she wants anymore.  She thinks she wants to be queen based upon her childhood stories,  but when she achieves it,  she's going to know its not at all what its cracked up to be and the price it carried was so very steep.  I suspect she won't be the only one learning that hard lesson by the end,  either.  

[bb1180]

26 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

Was her desire to be a queen or to be in this fairy tale where knights would fight for her nobly and she would wear a new dress every day?

I don't think she really thought about the reality of BEING queen. 

also we know know that rhaegar really wanted to be king or etc...

Exactly.  The reality as opposed to her childhood fantasies and stories are two entirely different things and a major part of her character arc has been the fact that she's learned this much to her detriment. 

 

[The Arthur Smith]

50 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

I could see any number of hook ups but not really romantic. For land, for peace, for etc.. but not anything i could see as a romantic happy ending. 

I can see Jon/Sansa being this. 

[Cunning Villain]

6 hours ago, MrsStocksey said:

But Arya is his sister (even if only in spirit)....their relationship as brother/sister was well established early on in Season 1 and there has never been any romantic connection suggested in the show (or in the book imo) and it would just weird viewers out, even if/when R + L + J is revealed. 

I'm not really a fan of Jon/Sansa either.

Their connection in general isn't anywhere near as strong in the show as it is in the books, though. We only get the scenes where Jon is leaving Winterfell for the Wall and presents Arya with Needle and her reluctance to dispose of the sword—the only possession she couldn't bring herself to let go of—when she starts training with the Faceless Men. Other than those scenes, I can't think of anything else which establishes the bond they share. However, they think of each other all the time in the books. She's the one he misses and wishes to see more than anyone else, and vice versa. Their "lack" of a bond in the show is only natural since they can't have characters busting out internal monologues in every scene, which is an advantage novels will always have. Plus, we know the author paired them up for the original conception of the ASOIAF story. I'm aware there has been a diametric shift in the story since then, but It's possible that remnant may yet linger.

The Jon/Sansa pairing can burn in the Seven Hells.

[Winter's Cold]

50 minutes ago, bb1180 said:

Well,  that's the point.  Sansa isn't actually getting what she wants anymore.  She thinks she wants to be queen based upon her childhood stories,  but when she achieves it,  she's going to know its not at all what its cracked up to be and the price it carried was so very steep.  I suspect she won't be the only one learning that hard lesson by the end,  either.  

She already paid the price for her desire to be queen by losing both her direwolf, her father and being constantly abused and beaten. This already happened in the first three novels.

56 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

I could see any number of hook ups but not really romantic. For land, for peace, for etc.. but not anything i could see as a romantic happy ending. 

I could see ASOIAF having a bittersweet and romantic ending with Jon and Arya. Winterfell in ruins, multiple family members death, the North recovering from a devastating war with the Others but at least two people who love each other (Jon/Arya) get to be together so that they can help each other cope with the pain. If it ends with two people who don't love each other marrying (Jon/Sansa) for me that would be bitter rather than sweet. Sweet to me implies happiness and joy which is something that can be achieved by a romantic ending.

[Winter's Cold]

16 minutes ago, The Arthur Smith said:

I can see Jon/Sansa being this. 

If Bran remains alive, then marrying Arya would be little different than marrying Sansa. Thus Jon/Arya would be both a political and romantic pairing.

[239JMFL34109]

1 minute ago, Winter's Cold said:

She already paid the price for her desire to be queen by losing both her direwolf, her father and being constantly abused and beaten. This already happened in the first three novels.

I could see ASOIAF having a bittersweet and romantic ending with Jon and Arya. Winterfell in ruins, multiple family members death, the North recovering from a devastating war with the Others but at least two people who love each other (Jon/Arya) get to be together so that they can help each other cope with the pain. If it ends with two people who don't love each other marrying (Jon/Sansa) for me that would be bitter rather than sweet. Sweet to me implies happiness and joy which is something that can be achieved by a romantic ending.

that is why he say bitter sweet and they might just love each other as family and there nothing romantic in it. A marriage like that would be about bringing peace to the realm. Not unlike the marriage that ended the dance of dragons. but who knows i am not sure it is going to happen. i just could see it. 

as for arya i just don't see her ending up with anyone. 

[239JMFL34109]

3 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

If Bran remains alive, then marrying Arya would be little different than marrying Sansa. Thus Jon/Arya would be both a political and romantic pairing.

again don't see arya marrying anyone. 

[bb1180]

6 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

She already paid the price for her desire to be queen by losing both her direwolf, her father and being constantly abused and beaten. This already happened in the first three novels.

You're right,  but the consequences of those events in the first three books are still unfolding.  The price has been paid,  but Sansa's story isn't over yet.  

[Le Cygne]

A Stark marrying a Stark would not be of any benefit politically. Robb made Jon heir instead of Sansa in the books, and they made Sansa a Bolton in the show, and Bran is alive (and many know this on the show). My guess, the books end as they began, with Bran in Winterfell, but this time, the morning dawns with hints of winter ending. I think the show will do the same.

[239JMFL34109]

7 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

A Stark marrying a Stark would not be of any benefit politically. Robb made Jon heir instead of Sansa in the books, and Bran is alive (and many know this on the show). My guess, the books end as they began, with Bran in Winterfell, but this time, the morning dawns with hints of winter ending. I think the show will do the same.

Except jon is not a stark. also by the logic Ned's parent never would have married nor would tywin would have married His wife.  I don't see anyone becoming heir to robb at all really. Also man do i not see Bran coming back. i think bran might ends up 1000th lord commander of the wall at the end of the books or just part of the greenseer but i don't think lord. 

[Le Cygne]

Jon is a Stark. He's in Stark armor on the show. And they are rallying around him, by all accounts. And by that logic (going by last names), Sansa is not a Stark. Best choice, Bran, the heir to Winterfell.

Again, you can't just set aside all the things in books and show that they did to set Sansa aside (the decree in the books, the Bolton marriage in the show, losing her wolf in books and show).

Sansa and Jon marrying would be insufferable to both. They don't like each other, that's been made very clear in the text, and the show made no investment whatsoever.