Season 6 Hookups!

[239JMFL34109]

9 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Jon is a Stark. He's in Stark armor on the show. And they are rallying around him, by all accounts. And by that logic (going by last names), Sansa is not a Stark. Best choice, Bran, the heir to Winterfell.

Again, you can't just set aside all the things in books and show that they did to set Sansa aside (the decree in the books, the Bolton marriage in the show, losing her wolf in books and show).

Sansa and Jon marrying would be insufferable to both. They don't like each other, that's been made very clear in the text, and the show made no investment whatsoever.

Yes but he is not a stark in the end when it comes to his family line. i don't know if in the show or the book it will ever become well know about his parents but i am not going to discount the possibility political marriage could be likely to end the fight over who is going to end up on the stupid chair. 

What proof do you have that they would be "insufferable" to either? In the show having them meet would be the first stark to see each other since season 1 people have all the investment they need for them to meet and get along. In the books sansa and jon are at worst indifferent to each other. Does she not even long to see him again while she is in the vale? talking about how "sweet" it would be to see him again. I could see them trying to forge a new relationship as they both now understand how much family matter. Both of them we so eager to leave the family behind to get where they thought they wanted to be only to lose that family altogether. 

 also i don't think it would be marriage for anyone will be "happy" more like "not unhappy"

I am not wanting this to happen btw i just could see it as an end game. 

[bb1180]

24 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Jon is a Stark. He's in Stark armor on the show. And they are rallying around him, by all accounts. And by that logic (going by last names), Sansa is not a Stark. Best choice, Bran, the heir to Winterfell.

Again, you can't just set aside all the things in books and show that they did to set Sansa aside (the decree in the books, the Bolton marriage in the show, losing her wolf in books and show).

Sansa and Jon marrying would be insufferable to both. They don't like each other, that's been made very clear in the text, and the show made no investment whatsoever.

Politically,  Jon is either a bastard or he's a Targaryen.  He's technically not a Stark.  

As for Sansa,  I'm not sure how much her marriage,  either in the show or the books,  really matter.  Ramsay is likely soon to be dead and Tyrion is in exile.  Neither have an heir by Sansa.  She could certainly marry again if Ramsay dies,  and given Tyrion's status and the fact that her marriage could be said to have been made as a hostage and under duress,  the northern lords probably wouldn't recognize the legitimacy of it,  anyway...especially if they had good political reasons not to.  The point being,  Sansa's marriage in book or show don't amount to much without children from them.  

As for Bran,  yes,  technically he's the heir to Winterfell,  but the problem is,  even if people know he may be alive,  he's nowhere to be found.  If the North rebels against Bolton rule,  it needs a Stark heir now,  not whenever Bran decides to emerge from under a tree north of the Wall.  If Sansa is the only Stark heir known for certain to be alive and in a safe location,  realistically,  they're going to back her instead.  

Finally,  its absolutely not true that Jon and Sansa don't like each other,  particularly later in the story.  Read each of their final chapters in the published novels.  For Sansa,  that's in AFFC.  Upon learning that Jon is alive,  she thinks to herself how sweet it would be to see him again.   She also seems to have some possible regret over thinking of him as just a bastard boy,  given that the Vale now thinks she's just some bastard girl.   Likewise, in Jon's final chapter of ADWD,  Jon thinks back on all of the Stark siblings,  thinking of Sansa with Lady,  which...perhaps a bit interestingly...he also connects one sentence later with Ygritte by thinking 'you know nothing, Jon Snow.'  

[Le Cygne]

Myranda trips her up and mentions Jon, who she admits she had not thought of in "ages" - that's not longing. Want to see longing? This, in the same chapter (again, she thinks of Sandor's cloak more than she thinks of Jon). Jon and Sansa don't like each other. No one in the family likes Sansa. I'll add a quote from GRRM in a sec, too.

Quote

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me with nothing but a bloody cloak.

And there's lots more... He's been telling the Sansa and the Hound story since book 1, when he gave the Hound the Beast's lines. And she's been thinking of him over and over and over again, explicitly wishing he was there, imagining he is there (she hears his voice), and much more. In that chapter, she places him in the marriage bed because of how he kissed her.

(moved the GRRM quotes forward)

[bb1180]

4 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Myranda trips her up and mentions Jon, who she admits she had not thought of in "ages" - that's not longing. Want to see longing? This, in the same chapter (again, she thinks of Sandor's cloak more than she thinks of Jon). Jon and Sansa don't like each other. No one in the family likes Sansa. I'll add a quote from GRRM in a sec, too.

I don't know if I'd call it 'longing' to see Jon,  but she very clearly states that it would be 'so sweet' to see him again.  Very clearly,  Sansa does not dislike Jon. She misses him as a brother.  She even laments the fact that she probably never will see him again.

Understand, on this point,  I'm not saying it necessarily foreshadows anything between the two,  only that Sansa very much would like to see Jon again.  

[239JMFL34109]

17 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Myranda trips her up and mentions Jon, who she admits she had not thought of in "ages" - that's not longing. Want to see longing? This, in the same chapter (again, she thinks of Sandor's cloak more than she thinks of Jon). Jon and Sansa don't like each other. No one in the family likes Sansa. I'll add a quote from GRRM in a sec, too.

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me with nothing but a bloody cloak.

And there's lots more...

Hear is the things this is not Sandor vs jon to me. 

She thinks about jon around the same time jon thinks about her. They are family no matter what happens and i think they do what to see each other and that the other one is protected. In ADWD, when he thinks of his lost siblings, right before he starts making plans to head to Winterfell, an image of Sansa brushing Lady's coat and singing is included.  Even in AGOT, though Sansa rarely thought about Jon, when he did enter her thoughts we saw her seem to want Jon to find a Good place in the world as she understood it then being a black knight on the wall. At a time in the book where she thought of Knights as this great thing to be. We know she tried to teach him how to talk to girls. Jon becomes a lord just as sansa becomes a bastard. 

" Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again. " that is longing. I am not discounting the sansa has feelings for the hound. but don't pretend that sansa and jon hate each other. 

[Le Cygne]

Also the family line thing, she "chose" to marry a Bolton on the show. That's what they said, it was her choice. She chose to become a Bolton. Jon never chose to become a Bolton. /ahead of the game right there

[bb1180]

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

Also the family line thing, she "chose" to marry a Bolton on the show. That's what they said, it was her choice. She chose to become a Bolton. Jon never chose to become a Bolton. /ahead of the game right there

Unless she gives Ramsay an heir,  it doesn't amount to anything.  Once he dies,  she's free to remarry and any children would be of her new husband's house.  Further,  if the North does revolt against the Boltons and installs Sansa as their new liege,  they probably won't give a damn about any of that,  anyway,  and will encourage her to call herself 'Stark' (no doubt so they can attempt to marry themselves or their heirs to a Stark).  

[239JMFL34109]

5 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Also the family line thing, she "chose" to marry a Bolton on the show. That's what they said, it was her choice. She chose to become a Bolton. Jon never chose to become a Bolton. /ahead of the game right there

yeah yet if all the boltons are killed it does not mean she got to go with them. She does not want them around either. 

[Le Cygne]

In both cases, they run through a list of siblings. Jon is the only brother left. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of your ship:

Quote

She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still … with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her.

And again, Jon is thinking of all the siblings here, but this is about Arya, the one he loves, she is his last thought when he dies, and she is the one he compares to Ygritte, repeatedly:

Quote

He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

And if you'd like, I can quote how many times Sansa thinks of Sandor, but it would fill many pages. Over and over and over again, and he's not an afterthought, she actively replaces other men with him, thinks of him when other men are bad to her, imagines him rescuing her from other men, compares him to other men and he always comes out on top, and that's not even getting into the kissing and naked in bed with her stuff, or all the hounds and dogs raining all over her story... No comparison, like I said, she thinks of Sandor's cloak more than Jon.

[Le Cygne]

Oh, and I never said they hate each other. I said they don't like each other. They don't. They rarely think of each other. Jon sided with Arya against Sansa (they made fun of her together). Sansa was quite unkind to Jon, and Arya. There are conflicts there. They are siblings, and often that happens. He's not writing a love story for Sansa and Jon, or even a like story.

[239JMFL34109]

12 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

In both cases, they run through a list of siblings. Jon is the only brother left. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of your ship:

And again, Jon is thinking of all the siblings here, but this is about Arya, the one he loves, she is his last thought when he dies, and she is the one he compares to Ygritte, repeatedly:

And if you'd like, I can quote how many times Sansa thinks of Sandor, but it would fill many pages. Over and over and over again, and he's not an afterthought, she actively replaces other men with him, thinks of him when other men are bad to her, imagines him rescuing her from other men, compares him to other men and he always comes out on top, and that's not even getting into the kissing and naked in bed with her stuff, or all the hounds and dogs raining all over her story... No comparison, like I said, she thinks of Sandor's cloak more than Jon.

AGAIN we are you making this Jon vs sandor? 

You were the one who said jon and sansa said they found each other  "insufferable." 

I have never said she doesn't think of sandor or she does not care about him. 

Jon thinks about all his sibling he was closest to arya but that doesn't mean he hated robb either. 

Sansa think about jon with longing because jon is all that she has left of the family that she loved as far as she knows.

I am not even saying Sansa and jon are romantic. I actually think that happy ever after romance is not in the cards for either jon or sansa when it comes to marriage. 

[Le Cygne]

No, I said they would find being married to each other insufferable. If you are not going to quote me properly, I'll just stop responding. And again, that's not longing. She says it would be sweet to do a lot of things, that's the way she talks. She said she hadn't thought of him in AGES and only then as the only brother remaining to her (after listing the others) and just before and after that, she's thinking of kissing Sandor and places him in the marriage bed.

(Sandor is the contrast. Compare and contrast.)

[Karmarni]

Well, why wouldn't romance be in the cards for Sansa? She's the one who is the big romantic who's been going on and on about a kiss with Sandor Clegane. She still is that romantic. She's switched gears a little though. And I do not think that the stories across all five books so far is without romance. It's there. And saying that's not "endgame" that's easy gamer talk for an out. I'm looking for tougher, literary answers than romance is not the 'endgame.'

Politics is over-rated on this too - GRRM may be writing political marriages, and Sansa already got one - to Tyrion Lannister. She was force-married to the enemy. And her brother Robb said, huh, can't have a Lannister get Winterfell, so he wrote his will to leave it to Jon Snow, who grew up there as a Stark bastard.

He's still a Stark bastard, up to the penultimate book. And Sansa Stark is still yammering about Sandor Clegane. That's the story I would like to see. Not Sansa getting the whiplash treatment and being shoved together with Jon Snow because of some damn outline that was drawn up years ago.

The books as written matter. They are the blueprint. The outline does not matter anymore.

And since this is a show thread, I must say that super tall Turner would look really awkward with super short Harrington.

And finally, I think that Jon Snow has a lot of more important things to do that have a wedding, romance his former sister, roll with her in the hay. Come on, the Others/White Walkers are coming!! He's been revived from the dead! He's going to have some special power or insight that might just be the final thing he needs to take them on. The importance of the world is at stake!!

[239JMFL34109]

4 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Oh, and I never said they hate each other. I said they don't like each other. They don't. They rarely think of each other. Jon sided with Arya against Sansa (they made fun of her together). Sansa was quite unkind to Jon, and Arya. There are conflicts there. They are siblings, and often that happens. He's not writing a love story for Sansa and Jon, or even a like story.

Not thinking much about each other does not prove dislike. they do happen to do it and it is not in a negative context. Even in the first book She hopes the jon fines a good place in the world. She even subconsciously compares the mountain she is climbing later in the books to ghost. 

 

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

No, I said they would find being married to each other insufferable. If you are not going to quote me properly, I'll just stop responding. And again, that's not longing. She says it would be sweet to do a lot of things, that's the way she talks. She said she hadn't thought of him in AGES and just before and after that, she's thinking of kissing Sandor and places him in the marriage bed.

She is longing in that scene for jon but really for her family that she lost. Jon is the only one left to her so she longs to see him. but her longing is more about seeing her family again. 

also insufferable to be married together mean that that they just find each other insufferable. Marriage is about politics, land  and men. Not about love. If they find marriage insufferable then they just find each other insufferable. 

[Le Cygne]

No, not Ghost, a ghost wolf. Lady. The Hound is Sansa's Lady replacement, that's all over the story. And the Hound is all over that chapter, from start to finish.

And that's not longing. And no, finding someone insufferable and marrying them insufferable are two things. Marrying you have to see them every day and fuck them.

[Tianzi]

I don't think they really disliked each other, they just didn't understand each other very well, whey were very different people and of different social standing too. I think that Sansa now thinks of Jon fondly and her view of him is changing, as she experiences many of the things he had, but that's it. Whether we like it or not (I personally do, but that doesn't matter), I agree with the statement that Martin just isn't writing their story together. Just compare mutual Jon-Arya references with nearly non-existent Jon-Sansa ones. And the author is not just gonna shift because of a lost bet or something.

What D&D are going to do is a whole different matter, tho.
 

[Karmarni]

5 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

also insufferable to be married together mean that that they just find each other insufferable. Marriage is about politics, land  and men. Not about love. If they find marriage insufferable then they just find each other insufferable. 

Marriage is insufferable, it's about land and men. Got it. I'll make sure to never get married again!!

[Tianzi]

Oh, and about Sansa being a queen, I think that plotline might be done since Joff dumped her.
 

[Ingelheim]

15 minutes ago, Karmarni said:

 

And since this is a show thread, I must say that super tall Turner would look really awkward with super short Harrington.

 

Haha, true. But let's be fair: Turner is taller than the actors playing Littlefinger, Joffrey, or Tyrion as well. 

[bb1180]

7 minutes ago, Karmarni said:

And finally, I think that Jon Snow has a lot of more important things to do that have a wedding, romance his former sister, roll with her in the hay. Come on, the Others/White Walkers are coming!! He's been revived from the dead! He's going to have some special power or insight that might just be the final thing he needs to take them on. The importance of the world is at stake!!

 

He does.  But he also doesn't have an army to speak of,  nor does he have any political clout to gain one.  Jon needs political alliances and the way those would typically be forged in this type of world is through marriage (Ned and Catelyn's marriage,  for instance,  began as a political one).  Jon/Sansa in a political marriage makes a fair amount of sense initially because they know each other,  think well enough of each other from being raised as siblings years ago, with no animosity or mistrust. Besides,  both gain from it. Jon gets his political backing and manpower.  Sansa gets the male war leader and potential for an heir that the northern lords would likely demand of her. 

Of course,  this is predicated on the idea that Sansa will rise to rule the North.  If that doesn't happen,  all bets are off.