Discussing Sansa XX: Run, Sansa, run...

[Clash]

5 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

I think you're not getting what I'm trying to say.

Yes, Rickon's dead body could be used to rally the North too, that's not the point. If you have a character being a dribbling idiot that does stuff just because the plot says so, then you're a terrible storyteller. The character needs to earn it through development. Otherwise, what's the point on having such character?

That was clearly an exaggeration. Rickon's dead body can't become Lord of Winterfell either. This isn't "The Mummy Returns" That's how everybody in the book/show has seen Sansa so far; as a figurehead for the North. So she's fallen into that way of thinking of herself until (perhaps) now. We'll see.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Just now, Clash said:

That was clearly an exaggeration. Rickon's dead body can't become Lord of Winterfell either. This isn't "The Mummy Returns" That's how everybody in the book/show has seen Sansa so far; as a figurehead for the North. So she's fallen into that way of thinking of herself until (perhaps) now. We'll see.

According to the legends, El Cid died and his family and men used his dead body to rally their troops.

Either way, my point is how much are we going to wait for Sansa to actually develop some growing. She just keeps doing things because the writing requires her so.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

6 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

According to the legends, El Cid died and his family and men used his dead body to rally their troops.

So that is where the screenplay of "Weekend at Bernie's" came from!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Oh, come on, seriously, you don't know??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Cid_%28film%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Cid#Defeat

[Neds Secret]

4 hours ago, rosehustle1 said:

See, that's the problem. Sansa of the books would never look at Theon, even though he's an enemy, and just be happy he's been tortured. That is not her character. In the books, she helps Lancel when he's injured and internally feels like she shouldn't be helping him, but she does it all the same. She's an interesting character because she shows empathy to people that most others wouldn't give a second thought. Her statement that she wished  she could have done to Theon what Ramsay did was so outside of who that character is. She may feel conflicted about Theon and they could definitely show her natural mistrust, but her not feeling any fear or even pity, after seeing his physical state is very weird. This is a man who is the heir of the Iron Islands, a valuable hostage, and he is treated like this? This should set off warning bells. Also the mind games Ramsay played with her at the dinner table should be enough for her to realize this guy has a similar sick sense of humor to Joffrey. The reason all of this happened was because the writers knew that this plot didn't make sense if Sansa actually retained some of her development. So, they regressed her to her season 1 self and made her a victim again. No matter what faux empowerment they give her this season it won't erase the fact that they didn't believe her prior trauma was enough for her to want to regain her home, no she had to be raped to get her 'motivation.' It's looking like a rape=empowerment story line which I've seen before and has terrible implications of how they view this subject matter. I don't see the writers ever digging themselves out of this hole, tbh.

[Clash]

23 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

According to the legends, El Cid died and his family and men used his dead body to rally their troops.

Either way, my point is how much are we going to wait for Sansa to actually develop some growing. She just keeps doing things because the writing requires her so.

So Rickon = El Cid. Didn't see that coming.

 

[Woman of War]

15 hours ago, Risto said:

 

Lady Walda? We are talking about Sansa here. Sansa Stark. All the other names are nothing else than fanfiction as GRRM, producers of TV show are rather clear about the name - Sansa Stark. Now, if we want to degrade character who was raped by making stronger connection with her rapist, that is whole another debate, but let we stick to the established names here. Thank you very much

Sorry, but I see no reason to follow your suggestion  since Sansa is not a really existing person, she cannot be offended like so many really existing women or girls in our world who live in a marriage full of violence.

I am not writing this to annoy you, actually why should you care how anyone names a fictional character, the name on our  meta discussion level does not change the in-story plotline.  But it is important to realize that Sansa in the books - if she is not Alayne - is still clearly and without doubt Sansa Lannister by law while in the show she is clearly and with even lesser doubt - the marriage has been consummated - by law Sansa Bolton.  That obviously she is still a child of House Stark and of House Tully goes without saying.

We all have wondered why the show so easily brushed away Sansa's marriage to Tyrion and what this might mean for her future plot. For example in any pregnancy scenario in the books Sansa's child would be a Lannister by law  while in the show this child would be a Bolton. Meaning there will be no pregnancy? Could be. Excluding a story where Sansa is the mother of the last heir of CR after every single Lannister is dead.  A shame, this turn could have been wonderful irony. 

Actually as Lady Bolton Sansa will soon be heir to nothing most likely. How would she discuss that marriage away  in order to become Lady of Winterfell? It would take some convincing of Northerners since she went into this marriage willingly while she was forced into the Lannister marriage. Sansa the widow would be Lady Bolton who can marry again whomever, LOL, even Tyrion to merge plot lines. Book Sansa cannot marry anyone as Sansa, so I wonder if this whole juggling with names isn't irrelevant nonsense and might have little impact on Sansa's final story if the show is so careless about he legal situation.

 

[kissdbyfire]

15 hours ago, Grail King said:

Start of GOT at the feast Cersei asked her age Sansa's reply was 13 and the time of one season is one year can't fit, Gilly's baby be like 4 or 5 if that's the case, can't go by the wiki as GRRM himself didn't make the time line linear.

Can have the best education anywhere, brightest mind and still have a brain fart so Sansa's suppose to be some super girl, super everything, the reason people either like or hate Sansa is because she's a normal girl people seem to forget this.

As far as Pod keeping the childish sex stuff out, it isn't out of the norm for a squire or aid to both Tyrion and Brienne to learn and know what Sansa knows as far as house words, court etiquette and laws.

But Myrcella said last year that she's been in Dorne for 'years'. Tommen went from 8 to mid-teens, etc etc. Gilly's baby is actually a perfect example of the mess the timeline is. Gilly gave birth in s 3? Or worse, s 2? And the baby is still a baby, not even a toddler. If Sansa was 13 in season 1, she should be at the very least 16 now. 

[Tianzi]

58 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

Sorry, but I see no reason to follow your suggestion  since Sansa is not a really existing person, she cannot be offended like so many really existing women or girls in our world who live in a marriage full of violence.

I am not writing this to annoy you, actually why should you care how anyone names a fictional character, the name on our  meta discussion level does not change the in-story plotline.  But it is important to realize that Sansa in the books - if she is not Alayne - is still clearly and without doubt Sansa Lannister by law while in the show she is clearly and with even lesser doubt - the marriage has been consummated - by law Sansa Bolton.  That obviously she is still a child of House Stark and of House Tully goes without saying.

We all have wondered why the show so easily brushed away Sansa's marriage to Tyrion and what this might mean for her future plot. For example in any pregnancy scenario in the books Sansa's child would be a Lannister by law  while in the show this child would be a Bolton. Meaning there will be no pregnancy? Could be. Excluding a story where Sansa is the mother of the last heir of CR after every single Lannister is dead.  A shame, this turn could have been wonderful irony.

Actually as Lady Bolton Sansa will soon be heir to nothing most likely. How would she discuss that marriage away  in order to become Lady of Winterfell? It would take some convincing of Northerners since she went into this marriage willingly while she was forced into the Lannister marriage. Sansa the widow would be Lady Bolton who can marry again whomever, LOL, even Tyrion to merge plot lines. Book Sansa cannot marry anyone as Sansa, so I wonder if this whole juggling with names isn't irrelevant nonsense and might have little impact on Sansa's final story if the show is so careless about he legal situation.

Wouldn't more than half of the country (ie. anyone under the Lannister rule) still consider her a Lannister? Even in the show nobody really annulled her marriage to Tyrion. She is just a bigamist now.

And since Ramsay was legitimized by Tommen, wouldn't the North still consider him a bastard?

 

[kissdbyfire]

12 hours ago, Grail King said:

No he doesn't ,S5E3 the High Sparrow ~15 minutes in overlooking Moat Calin: the choice was WF or to turn the horses around, no where is the Vale mentioned, just as he played with his wedding proposal words he's playing with turning back, except he could just as easily return to the inn and have the Boltons pick her up there or any hamlet in between.

Her Choice was truly no choice at all.

I disagree. The way the scene played out, Sansa did have a choice. From the transcript:e  

LF: No, you'll be marrying his son and heir, Ramsay. One day he'll be Warden of the North and... 

Sansa: No!

LF: Sansa...

Sansa: No, you can't make me. I will starve myself. I will die before I have to go there.

LF: I won't force you to do anything. Don't you know by now how much I care for you? Say the word and we turn the horses round, but listen to me.

 

ETA: Whether people find it unbelievable or stupid that anyone would decide to marry family killers to get revenge is a different story. But that's what the show had her do, she decided to go ahead with the stupidest plan ever. 

[Woman of War]

55 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Wouldn't more than half of the country (ie. anyone under the Lannister rule) still consider her a Lannister? Even in the show nobody really annulled her marriage to Tyrion. She is just a bigamist now.

And since Ramsay was legitimized by Tommen, wouldn't the North still consider him a bastard?

 

I have no idea if In case a king turns out to be illegitimate all his decisions as king  will be retroactively invalid but yes, in that case Ramsay would be a bastard and his wife would be Mrs. Snow. Only I think Ramsay being a bastard won't be the main reason to disqualify him as Lord of WF  

And in fact it might not be Sansa's main problem how she is called but if anything tampers with her ability to find allies. If it would ever be a topic for her to be with Tyrion in the very end there is for sure no legal problem since they could always marry again if Martin wishes to go there, no idea if he does. Yes, she would be a bigamist right now and this is for sure a bigger plot hole than ten inches of snow or not. But it will dissolve by Ramsay dying and whatever ending could be written around it - if there is no pregnancy plot turn.

[Mladen]

2 hours ago, Woman of War said:

Sorry, but I see no reason to follow your suggestion  since Sansa is not a really existing person, she cannot be offended like so many really existing women or girls in our world who live in a marriage full of violence.

No need to see the reason or even follow the suggestion. We have the established character names and we should stick to them. At least, myself as the OP of this thread will politely ask of everyone involved to do so. Anything else is trolling, plain and simple. And what is behind that trolling is another story, but that is for another time.

 

 

[Woman of War]

Trolling??

Don't  you see that there might be a difference under which name Sansa tries to find allies? 

And what if Jon is son of a Targaeryen and is established as such? Would you insist on continuing to call  him Jon Snow? Do you continue to call Ramsay Snow even if he is an Bolton at he moment? What if Tyrion is no longer a Lannister but a Hill? All this may be hugely relevant within the story while how we in this forum call characters doesn't change the tiniest bit of the plot. There are even people who call Cersei Carol. If they like, fictional Cersei will hardly care. Why should we care in her place?

[Xcorpyo001]

35 minutes ago, Risto said:

No need to see the reason or even follow the suggestion. We have the established character names and we should stick to them. At least, myself as the OP of this thread will politely ask of everyone involved to do so. Anything else is trolling, plain and simple. And what is behind that trolling is another story, but that is for another time.

 

 

 

I like the "I'm taking show reality and replace it with my own" approach. Whatever floats your boat.

I guess ignoring the entire Sansa arc from season 5 is one way to get over the buthurt. But that doesn't change the fact that in show Winterfell(and probably the rest of the North) she is known as Lady Sansa Bolton. If you are asking me to call her Sansa Stark in the show part of the forum, I'm afraid I'm going to have to politely decline. But in this specific thread I'll use only Sansa to ease your pain.

[Mladen]

9 minutes ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

I like the "I'm taking show reality and replace it with my own" approach. Whatever floats your boat.

I guess ignoring the entire Sansa arc from season 5 is one way to get over the buthurt. But that doesn't change the fact that in show Winterfell(and probably the rest of the North) she is known as Lady Sansa Bolton. If you are asking me to call her Sansa Stark in the show part of the forum, I'm afraid I'm going to have to politely decline. But in this specific thread I'll use only Sansa to ease your pain.

Well, this is where you are wrong. In the TV-Universe, her character is still named Sansa Stark. Even Roose Bolton refers to her as Sansa Stark (and no less than 3 times in one minute). Pretending that her surname is Bolton or IDK what is as you said "replacing reality".

So, while it is the recommendation of me as the OP of the thread, you can call it whatever you want but let we be clear about it. In the TV Universe, as well as in the books, she remains Sansa Stark. Calling her anything else is just the already-seen "Sansa Lannister" pattern of behavior. 

 

[Xcorpyo001]

27 minutes ago, Risto said:

Well, this is where you are wrong. In the TV-Universe, her character is still named Sansa Stark. Even Roose Bolton refers to her as Sansa Stark (and no less than 3 times in one minute). Pretending that her surname is Bolton or IDK what is as you said "replacing reality".

So, while it is the recommendation of me as the OP of the thread, you can call it whatever you want but let we be clear about it. In the TV Universe, as well as in the books, she remains Sansa Stark. Calling her anything else is just the already-seen "Sansa Lannister" pattern of behavior. 

 

 

He uses her former surname in that scene to make Ramsay better understand her importance, as a former Stark, not that it is still her name.

Marriage + sex + common people call her Lady Bolton = Lady Bolton.

D&D spend 5 seasons telling us how important being a legitimate heir to inheriting anything, then ask us to forget that and accept the fact that Ellaria(not even a Martell bastard) rules Dorne because people hate Doran.

They also spend 5 seasons preaching about the sanctity of a marriage, especially a consumated one, and all the changes that come with it, then tell us that it doesn't matter when Sansa is concerned because she shouldn't even be in the same zip code as a Bolton, nevermind married with one.

I guess we have to sacrifice a lot to make this work. Not to mention the fact they inadvertedly made Ramsay sterile, because otherwise she should be very very pregnant with a Bolton heir/bastard. Can't believe I'm saying this, but poor Ramsay.

Please clear something for me if she is still a Stark. Ramsay lives and is heir as in the present, she lives, she has a baby If she has a baby, would it be a Bolton, Stark or Snow? Who has paternity over it? You're telling me that once Roose and Ramsay die, Ramsay's heirs will be Starks? Ot the child is born a Snow, and Roose has to legitimize the bastard as a Bolton?!? Color me confused....

 

Edit: I think I get it now. Roose is Warden of the North, and he will carry the Bolton line, plus keep the Dreadford through his heirs with Walda.

Ramsay keeps WF through Sansa, so he has to take her name instead. Sansa and Ramsay Stark. Now it makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Grail King]

8 hours ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

Yeah, Lyanna Mormont is the lady of Bear Island at age ten because she won the lottery.  I’m sure nothing bad ever happened to that pampered little brat or her family. Oh wait.

 

I seriously don't understand you. Judging by your avatar, I'd say you actually like her character. You're telling me you have 0 issues with the lack of character development so far? If so, this conversation is an exercise in futility. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

 

I like Sansa, her character is fine for her situation, the situation isn't fine for the way it was contrived I don't blame Sansa for that, that goes on the writers (LF) as I said she could say no, and they would just goto a village or the inn and have the Boltons forcefully take her; but you putting up a 10 year old  or anyone for that matter safely in her/ their castle, with a maester writing  bold words does not equate being brave or with gumption when compared with another person who has been tormented,raped, beaten and held against their will. put both girls in exactly the same situation and compare them that way.

[rosehustle1]

8 hours ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

I guess for the casual viewer, all the character development they need is seeing Sansa in a new dress. 

Sansa is wearing a black dress. Awesome. Clearly she just become a master manipulator. Let the hype begin.

And next season she agrees to LF's plan of avenging her family by willingly marrying Ramsay. How is that plan working out for her so far?!?

I'm positive she'll get a new outfit this season. Something with fur and a direwolf on it. And that will be all they need to make us believe she just become the most badass queen the world has ever seen. It's like she's in an RPG and the armor gives her instant stats increases. 

This is what I noticed when the second trailer dropped. Everyone saw her in the dress with the Stark wolf and instantly believed that she is now a warrior princess. Her riding in the vanguard makes no sense. She is not a skilled fighter. She is also one of the last possible heirs to WF. No way she would be that close to a battle. Anyway, I bet the most 'empowerment' we'll see for Sansa is her getting salty with people and rolling her eyes, but I bet it will be Jon and Davos actually making plans. I have no faith in these writers to actually allow this character true agency. I also doubt they will allow her to actually experience some real PTSD from her trauma.

[Grail King]

25 minutes ago, rosehustle1 said:

This is what I noticed when the second trailer dropped. Everyone saw her in the dress with the Stark wolf and instantly believed that she is now a warrior princess. Her riding in the vanguard makes no sense. She is not a skilled fighter. She is also one of the last possible heirs to WF. No way she would be that close to a battle. Anyway, I bet the most 'empowerment' we'll see for Sansa is her getting salty with people and rolling her eyes, but I bet it will be Jon and Davos actually making plans. I have no faith in these writers to actually allow this character true agency. I also doubt they will allow her to actually experience some real PTSD from her trauma.

I didn't get that feeling, she sure doesn’t have a face of a warrior princess, more tired and concern, and I'm sure it's more of her embracing her name;( of course the blue roses may mean something ) as far as PTSD, let's see how they play it once she gets into a room of relative safety and see if they give her nightmares or dreams like they did in KL, or if she has some breakdown along the way with Brienne, I don't think she should; Sansa does all her crying in private, but they may break her down in public because they did that at the hands tourney in KL.

QOTN would I like it? of course, but if she survives I see her as the Stark version of the QOT, she went from thinking the world was greener south; found out differently and learns family and home is more important, I don't think she let anyone hurt her family again.

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

He uses her former surname in that scene to make Ramsay better understand her importance, as a former Stark, not that it is still her name.

Marriage + sex + common people call her Lady Bolton = Lady Bolton.

OK, here we go again. People in and outside Universe calling her Stark = her being a Stark. The whole point of marriage was because she was and remains a Stark. Her being a Stark as Roose said, at the moment of speaking is what would gather the forces of North to them. So, for entire North, for Roose, for Sansa (at the end of the day, how she sees herself trumps everything), for outside-the-universe elements like GRRM, writers of the show etc. she is a Stark.

After all Cersei is always called Lannister and Catelyn and Lysa were named both ways. So, the lines are not existent here and given what has been established, leaves no space for discussion here. The character we are talking is Sansa Stark. Any other variation is forcing own's will to the established narrative.