[Spoilers] Criticize without repercussion

[Daenerys_Is_Coming]

12 hours ago, Belisarius09 said:

Roose can join the Ranks of Prince Doran, Stannis the Mannis, and Barristan the Bold in the league of bullshit ways to die. 

I fixed that for you

 

I've been so on the fence about watching this season, and last night's episode didn't help much.  It's clear that there are richly developed multi-layered characters that D&D have no idea how to portray on screen, much less given them a death befitting of their story arc.

What was the point Stannis season 1 - 5? Seriously? Just to be some random bad guy lurking leagues away from King's Landing? I think I even read somewhere where the actor playing Stannis said he never really "got" his character or what the whole point of his story was. I don't blame the actor for that, I blame the terrible writing and the way he just became a footnote for HulkBrienne's revenge mission. 

The way they killed Stannis and Doran and Barristan (and even Roose) were all total bu**shit. I get that not everyone gets a "beautiful death" and the world of ASOIAF is unjust and cruel.... but give me a fuc*ing break. Barristan was cut down by a half dozen untrained dudes with knives, Doran (and Hotah) were taken out like chumps by a pinky-sized dagger, and now we are to believe that the always cool and calculating Roose is killed by his bastard son during a hug? With no recourse from the loyal Bolton bannermen? 

FFS....someone release the dragons and burn all of Westeros to ash. 

[Mikeygigs]

6 hours ago, dooog said:

So Ramsay Bolton's position in the North is completely untenable now surely?

Red Wedding brought Bolton, Lannister and Frey together. Marrying "Joffrey's murderer" Sansa destroyed any potential Lannister support. Frey / Bolton alliance was sealed with Roose marrying Fat Walda, who Ramsay just fed to the hounds along with Walder's great grandson. Some northern houses were surely loyal to Roose as their liege lord, and not the known psychopath bastard Ramsay, so that has probably lost support too. And knowing Ramsay's reputation, Roose loyalists might question the "poison" explanation by looking at the large stab wound in Roose's torso. Or the fact that Roose's wife and newborn son mysteriously disappeared that day.

But not to worry, at least Ramsay still has Sansa to placate the Northern houses!.. oh wait no he lost her didn't he. So how the fuck in D&D's warped logic minds does Ramsay still have a leg to stand on? they've given him Karstark support by having him murder the very person who killed Rickard Karstark's killed... eh okay.

 

This is all so utterly moronic it hurts! not to worry though, i'm sure Ramsay will somehow get ahold of Rickon Stark to cover over these ginormous holes and give him some much needed leverage. Reasons.

 

 

God, this so much.

And ya know, Walda did not mysteriously disappear. She walked into the kennels with Ramsay, screamed and was eaten alive by dogs, and did not walk out. Its so stupid.

And yet, everyone is so cowed by Ramsay so they follow him no matter what? I mean, what the hell, man? Why do the Umbers, or Manderlys want to follow psychopath Ramsay when they have Rickon Stark? Its so stupid.

These are not nitpicks, these are serious problems with the story.

[A Ghost of Someone]

21 minutes ago, Mikeygigs said:

 

God, this so much.

And ya know, Walda did not mysteriously disappear. She walked into the kennels with Ramsay, screamed and was eaten alive by dogs, and did not walk out. Its so stupid.

And yet, everyone is so cowed by Ramsay so they follow him no matter what? I mean, what the hell, man? Why do the Umbers, or Manderlys want to follow psychopath Ramsay when they have Rickon Stark? Its so stupid.

These are not nitpicks, these are serious problems with the story.

GRRM warned when it became known that Sansa on the show was to marry Ramsay, that the Butterfly Effect only amplifies and the butterflies eventually become Dragons. He is an adviser to the show but apparently a very much OVERRULED advisor. D&D&C are f ing their own diverted storylines up.

[Duckfield]

This episode was much better than the first one, so I'm not surprised this thread is only 8 pages whereas the same thread for the 1st episode was like 25+ pages at this point. But still.. a few things did bother me

Davos supporting and encouraging Mel - I just don't buy it. It doesn't make any sense. Davos should have tried to kill her the moment she set foot in CB for what she did to Stannis and his family (and his son), but now they're like.. buddies? wow.

Brienne didn't tell Sansa that Arya was with the hound. Why?? Is there any reason to hide this from her? Or did the writers purposely emitted that bit of info from the script to make their conversation shorter or something? I don't get it. 

When Jaime confessed so many of his crimes to HS, why did he not do anything to try and arrest him too? He just doesn't care? This lacks consistency. 

Lord Karstark gives 0 fucks that Ramsay just killed his own father and the same lord he came to give his allegiance to? Really? Just like that? and also, why did they make Roose such an idiot? Wasn't he supposed to be quite cunning? How come he's not afraid of Ramsay, like, at all? It was so obvious that's what's going to happen I can't even

Euron was always a madman. What was this bullshit about losing it in a storm and being tied to a mast? And where was Yara in all this? why did she stay in the tower? 

Resurrection scene was meh. I think they could have handled it better. 

Tyrion - I liked that scene with the dragons, but it was such a stupid idea to do that by himself. It was very out of character for Tyrion. Why not send someone else to do it instead? you're a fucking ruler now aren't you? send a servant or something omg. what made him so sure they'll see him as a friend? 

But still it was a pretty good episode imo. I really enjoyed it!

[Belisarius09]

13 hours ago, dooog said:

So Ramsay Bolton's position in the North is completely untenable now surely?

Red Wedding brought Bolton, Lannister and Frey together. Marrying "Joffrey's murderer" Sansa destroyed any potential Lannister support. Frey / Bolton alliance was sealed with Roose marrying Fat Walda, who Ramsay just fed to the hounds along with Walder's great grandson. Some northern houses were surely loyal to Roose as their liege lord, and not the known psychopath bastard Ramsay, so that has probably lost support too. And knowing Ramsay's reputation, Roose loyalists might question the "poison" explanation by looking at the large stab wound in Roose's torso. Or the fact that Roose's wife and newborn son mysteriously disappeared that day.

But not to worry, at least Ramsay still has Sansa to placate the Northern houses!.. oh wait no he lost her didn't he. So how the fuck in D&D's warped logic minds does Ramsay still have a leg to stand on? they've given him Karstark support by having him murder the very person who killed Rickard Karstark's killed... eh okay.

 

This is all so utterly moronic it hurts! not to worry though, i'm sure Ramsay will somehow get ahold of Rickon Stark to cover over these ginormous holes and give him some much needed leverage. Reasons.

 

Oh don't worry, he doesn't need any of them to secure his position as warden of the north.  He has Sir Twenty of House Goodmen.  He'll be fine. 

[SevasTra82]

8 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

GRRM warned when it became known that Sansa on the show was to marry Ramsay, that the Butterfly Effect only amplifies and the butterflies eventually become Dragons. He is an adviser to the show but apparently a very much OVERRULED advisor. D&D&C are f ing their own diverted storylines up.

He's an adviser, but that's where his power ends.  He doesn't have any power to make story line decisions etc.  He can just give his input, and it's up to D&D whether or not they take it.  Honestly, I wonder how much input he *has* had the last two seasons.  We know he hasn't written a script since season 4, and hasn't visited the shooting of the show or anything like that.  So a part of me wonders if it's slipping so badly because GRRM isn't as heavily involved in bouncing his ideas off of D&D?

[A Ghost of Someone]

1 hour ago, SevasTra82 said:

He's an adviser, but that's where his power ends.  He doesn't have any power to make story line decisions etc.  He can just give his input, and it's up to D&D whether or not they take it.  Honestly, I wonder how much input he *has* had the last two seasons.  We know he hasn't written a script since season 4, and hasn't visited the shooting of the show or anything like that.  So a part of me wonders if it's slipping so badly because GRRM isn't as heavily involved in bouncing his ideas off of D&D?

I noticed a "cooling off" between them when it became apparent that Sansa would receive the Jeyne Poole storyline/treatment. GRRM's retaliation was the Sansa/Alayne Sample chapter for TWOW released before season 5 and then the butterfly statement by GRRM. I think the Sansa-Ramsay route was the worst mistake D&D&C have made to date.

[Ser Quork]

2 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I noticed a "cooling off" between them when it became apparent that Sansa would receive the Jeyne Poole storyline/treatment. GRRM's retaliation was the Sansa/Alayne Sample chapter for TWOW released before season 5 and then the butterfly statement by GRRM. I think the Sansa-Ramsay route was the worst mistake D&D&C have made to date.

I agree.

[SevasTra82]

36 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I noticed a "cooling off" between them when it became apparent that Sansa would receive the Jeyne Poole storyline/treatment. GRRM's retaliation was the Sansa/Alayne Sample chapter for TWOW released before season 5 and then the butterfly statement by GRRM. I think the Sansa-Ramsay route was the worst mistake D&D&C have made to date.

That's a good point.  I don't think GRRM would ever publically come out and bash D&D for what they did, but I do think he was bothered by it.  GRRM worked hard to give Sansa a certain "Aura" about her, and the show downright destroyed GRRM's vision for her.  These are his babies so I can understand how he would be irked by it.

It reminds me of a story with Stephen King and THE SHINING.  It is well-documented that King *hated* the movie...so much that it turned him off to Hollywood all together and he tends to shy away from it.  I read that what King hated about the movie adaptation was how the movie destroyed the core personalities of the main characters that he wrote, and the on-screen versions where nothing like his vision for them.  (Its an interesting read, I suggest people research it sometimes).  I think GRRM is the same way...he got a bad taste in his mouth over what the screen did to Sansa (destroying her maiden aura).

[Sir Loin Steak]

36 minutes ago, SevasTra82 said:

It reminds me of a story with Stephen King and THE SHINING.  It is well-documented that King *hated* the movie...so much that it turned him off to Hollywood all together and he tends to shy away from it.  I read that what King hated about the movie adaptation was how the movie destroyed the core personalities of the main characters that he wrote, and the on-screen versions where nothing like his vision for them.  (Its an interesting read, I suggest people research it sometimes).  I think GRRM is the same way...he got a bad taste in his mouth over what the screen did to Sansa (destroying her maiden aura).

Kubrick's Shining (which happens to be one of my favourite films) is utterly unsympathetic to Jack Torrance. In the book the character represents Stephen King's own issues with alcoholism and substance abuse, so by portraying him in a harsher light Kubrick was in effect personally attacking King. In some ways you could consider the film version to be a rebuttal to the book.

It's a really interesting example when it comes to adaptions. It does fundamentally differ from the spirit of the book, but it succeeds on it's own merits. 

Unfortunately, D&D are neither keeping true to the spirit of Martin's work, nor entering into a dialogue with the text - they're just ham-fistedly butchering it.

[A Ghost of Someone]

1 hour ago, SevasTra82 said:

That's a good point.  I don't think GRRM would ever publically come out and bash D&D for what they did, but I do think he was bothered by it.  GRRM worked hard to give Sansa a certain "Aura" about her, and the show downright destroyed GRRM's vision for her.  These are his babies so I can understand how he would be irked by it.

It reminds me of a story with Stephen King and THE SHINING.  It is well-documented that King *hated* the movie...so much that it turned him off to Hollywood all together and he tends to shy away from it.  I read that what King hated about the movie adaptation was how the movie destroyed the core personalities of the main characters that he wrote, and the on-screen versions where nothing like his vision for them.  (Its an interesting read, I suggest people research it sometimes).  I think GRRM is the same way...he got a bad taste in his mouth over what the screen did to Sansa (destroying her maiden aura).

GRRM grew up loving knights and tales and such. Sansa is the "Fair Maiden" in the books and the show destroyed her, with a hateful storyline with hateful dialogue where she honored Tyrion to the face of her new husband who then raped her that night and every night until she escaped. It was a very hateful script and the title of that episode was Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken which was the exact opposite of what happened to Sansa. They went out of their way to do that to her. I think GRRM seethed over it but used as much restraint as he could. He is a professional.

[Lautrec]

I've never ranted before, but now I have to.

What happened to Roose is unforgivable. He was the best villain the show ever had outside of Tywin. Even with minimal screentime McElhatton made him unforgettable. Joffrey and Ramsay are fun to watch but they're stupid, predictable and, despite the good performances, still one-dimensional in their villainy. Gee, I wonder if Ramsay will kill someone with his hounds again, and give a "durr, im a scary psycho" look to anyone. I can't possibly imagine why D&D would think Ramsay is more interesting and better as an antagonist to Jon's story. Not to mention how through some magic of writing the death came across as both rushed and obvious, and patently undeserved, in the sense of narrative progression and pacing. And also, we'll say that he was poisoned? What? Won't someone notice the fucking stab wound?

Roose was such a presence and this death is without a doubt the worst death anyone ever had. Doran was barely a character, so fuck him. The off-screen explanation for not showing Stannis' death is dumb as hell, but at least he went out after a battle, as did Barristan. But with Roose? Just a random scene in the second episode. It wasn't even shocking really (the dagger at Ramsay's back was in the center of the frame), it just made me annoyed and mad. Blegh, just blegh.

[SevasTra82]

15 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

GRRM grew up loving knights and tales and such. Sansa is the "Fair Maiden" in the books and the show destroyed her, with a hateful storyline with hateful dialogue where she honored Tyrion to the face of her new husband who then raped her that night and every night until she escaped. It was a very hateful script and the title of that episode was Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken which was the exact opposite of what happened to Sansa. They went out of their way to do that to her. I think GRRM seethed over it but used as much restraint as he could. He is a professional.

A part of it that probably irritates GRRM is that it didn't *have* to happen, but D&D made Ramsey rape and torture Sansa simply for shock value.  It kind of underlines one of my biggest issues with the show...it's littered with "shock value" moments that serve zero purpose to the story line.  What was the point of the scene with (un)Gregor and the drunk?  It was funny, but served no purpose.  Or basically any scene where a girl whips out her boobs and dances around for no reason?  Once again, no purpose other then to cater to the teenage perverts.  (I'm actually shocked they didn't find a way to slip a boob into last weeks episode).

I view Sansas rape the same way.  No point to take it to that level.  They essentially destroyed a whole characters persona and aura for no reason other then creating a little "shock value".

[The Ned's Little Girl]

6 minutes ago, SevasTra82 said:

I view Sansas rape the same way.  No point to take it to that level.  They essentially destroyed a whole characters persona and aura for no reason other then creating a little "shock value".

I agree completely with all you said. But there's something more, I believe (and worse).

I think the show wanted to punish the viewers. They consciously decided to make this horrific experience happen to Sansa specifically because she was someone that the audience knew and cared about. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

14 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I agree completely with all you said. But there's something more, I believe (and worse).

I think the show wanted to punish the viewers. They consciously decided to make this horrific experience happen to Sansa specifically because she was someone that the audience knew and cared about. 

I agree with all of this and even more, I think they dislike, maybe even hate her book character so they "socked it to her" show character. The dialogue, the title of the episode. They wanted to punish Sansa and they did. I suspect it was for, above all other things, not appreciating Tyrion and letting him fuck her in the books.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

34 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I agree with all of this and even more, I think they dislike, maybe even hate her book character so they "socked it to her" show character. The dialogue, the title of the episode. They wanted to punish Sansa and they did. I suspect it was for, above all other things, not appreciating Tyrion and letting him fuck her in the books.

I think that's certainly possible. Sansa is a character who is really easily misunderstood, as is Catelyn (although in the show Catelyn was disregarded on top of being misunderstood).

And I get that startling or shocking the audience is a time-honored method of film-making. Like, having a sudden loud noise to make the audience jump. That's part of the fun.

This isn't fun, though. It's pretty sadistic, actually.

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

33 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I think that's certainly possible. Sansa is a character who is really easily misunderstood, as is Catelyn (although in the show Catelyn was disregarded on top of being misunderstood).

And I get that startling or shocking the audience is a time-honored method of film-making. Like, having a sudden loud noise to make the audience jump. That's part of the fun.

This isn't fun, though. It's pretty sadistic, actually.

 

and a bit "Pervy". I am not afraid to say that.

[Noveson]

When you're to the point you think the producers are punishing a character because they somehow have something against her for not fucking a guy....You know it's time to stop watching.  Honestly it's a little pathetic

[The Onion Kniggit]

Well at least it's not as bad as the first episode...

[ummester]

8 hours ago, Noveson said:

When you're to the point you think the producers are punishing a character because they somehow have something against her for not fucking a guy....You know it's time to stop watching.  Honestly it's a little pathetic

The crazy thing is, there is no kind of evidence, only the interpretation of the viewer/reader.

The actors can probably control a lot more about their characters than people take into account. I'm sure part of the reason show Tyrion is so changed from the books is on Dinklage. Some of Sansa's changes may be on Turner herself - she may have wanted more action for her character.