Rickon vs Ramsey

[Hodor's Aunt]

50 minutes ago, Lord Buckethead said:

If the umbers actually take upon themselves the risk of putting Rickon in Ramsays custody, despite still being Stark Loyalists, they certainly know nothing about what Ramsay is capable of. 

For me it's got to be either:

a ) House Umber (or someone from house Umber) are more loyal to Ramsay than to the Starks in the TV-series

or

b ) The gift is not "Rickon" at all, it is something/someone else, or a fake Rickon.

 

 

If the gift is Rickon the best guess is that House Umber will divide itself - like in the books but with a different twist. Some faction of the House would team with Ramsey to get rid of a remaining Stark-loyal faction.

[lordstewie]

13 hours ago, Hodor's Aunt said:

not if you are'nt the current lord of last hearth. If you are an ambitious traitor you would abduct the boy bring him to your liege lord and get the lordship in return.

you can do the same thing with Rickon 

Bolton are usurper 

[lordstewie]

13 hours ago, Masha said:

Does anyone else know what happened during the Red Wedding?

1) While people do know (I hope) that Bolton betrayed Stark at Red Wedding, nobody other than his men and Freys know what truly happened there. He could have said that while I betrayed Starks and his bannerman, I just watched, Freys did the horrid thing.

2) In the show, did Roose kill anyone other than Robb at Red Wedding?

3) In the show, Umbers were never overly loyal/fanatically loyal toward Starks, just general bannerman eager to jump onboard for power. Didn't originally one of the Jons (GreatJon or SmallJon) challenge Robb as weak till Grey Wind ate his finger? It could be claimed they go with strongest, and right now its Ramsey

4) In the show, do people in the North know that Bolton was responsible for betrayal of Starks? 

 

1) everybody in the kingdom knows, Bolton take the north with forgiven of iron throne and have betrayal the starks in the wedding , with frey perhaps lord bolton married walda

2)kill your lord is betrayal

3)it means nothing , Rob proof his worth

4)  someone alive at the massacre, there 's no need imagiantion to understand what it happened

 

 

in the show exist a northern house loyal to stark or not ?

 

 

[White Harbors Wrath]

There was a separate lord cast from Smalljon who is supposedly the one who changes allegiances (whether that's Manderly or some bs made up house who knows.) Umbers are not going to be that house...they're just going to hand him over for "reasons" they really can do anything they want on the show and explain it away with one line. They've done it dozens of times.

Book = Umbers fiercely loyal to Starks, begrudgingly support Boltons due to the Greatjons situation.

Show = Umbers fiercely loyal to Starks, get pissed because Jon let wildlings south of the wall and join up with Bolton in protest, using Rickon as proof of their loyalty.

It doesn't have to be a "good" reason, it just has to be a reason. There is a pattern of this happening throughout the shows history.

[Stangler]

All the characters in the show are up north so it is hard for them to even use the Maderleys as that secret ally. We also already know that Davos goes west to get allies which makes it even less likely that he is able to recruit them like he does in the book. The show has also not even really shown them before so they would need some time to set them up as an important northern house. We also know that they are using the Umbers again. So there are a lot of reasons to assume that they will not be that important.

So will the writers of the show completely drop that story or a northern house pretending to be allies to the Boltons or will they just change what house they use? I think the most likely outcome is that they just change the house they use and change the way they establish loyalty. 

The third option is that they use LF instead of the Manderly's. This is also perfectly possible in the show even if it doesn't really make that much sense. 

[Masha]

16 hours ago, jbob said:

These characters in the show aren't the same as the characters in the books. We don't know what Wyman is like in the show universe or what events he has gone through.

I predict that Manderly's role will be given to Lyanna Mormont. Much of Wyman's speech will be given to her.

Ramsey specifically mentioned Karstarks, Umbers and Manderlys. So Manderlys will be there its a given. The question will be, will they be there to play Ramsey like their did Boltons/Freys in the book or just generic Bolton loyalist

15 hours ago, jandslegate said:

I'd like to hope that if it is Rickon, he becomes the show version of Ghost of Winterfel via warging to pick people off. I'd also like to see the Umbers feigning betrayal as another show nod to TGNC. Unfortunately, Ramsay will probably just feed someone else to the dogs and go off with 19 other men and wipe out The Others. 

I doubt it, too much complication for the show. If the gift is Rickon, he will be the victim/prisoner of Ramsey. Either Ramsey plays him to hate Jon/Sansa or he locks him up and tries to break him. I doubt it - 99% doubt it that Rickon if free to roam will be taking revenge.

7 hours ago, Lord Buckethead said:

If the umbers actually take upon themselves the risk of putting Rickon in Ramsays custody, despite still being Stark Loyalists, they certainly know nothing about what Ramsay is capable of. 

For me it's got to be either:

a ) House Umber (or someone from house Umber) are more loyal to Ramsay than to the Starks in the TV-series

or

b ) The gift is not "Rickon" at all, it is something/someone else, or a fake Rickon.

 

 

Umbers might be just straight up Bolton loyalists. They were not that outspoken as Wyman was in the books, so its not a big deviation for them to be upset at Starks for something like Wildlings, going South and getting killed or being weak.

The show needs to create a big battle, therefore, at the end Jon Snow must be outnumbered/equal army to Ramsey's. For that Ramsey needs Umbers as well as Karstarks. I am just not sure about Manderly's here. They might just play as in the books, or have Wymans role be taken by Mormonts.  Its more straightforward for them, and D&D proven they want simple.

 

 

2 hours ago, White Harbors Wrath said:

There was a separate lord cast from Smalljon who is supposedly the one who changes allegiances (whether that's Manderly or some bs made up house who knows.) Umbers are not going to be that house...they're just going to hand him over for "reasons" they really can do anything they want on the show and explain it away with one line. They've done it dozens of times.

Book = Umbers fiercely loyal to Starks, begrudgingly support Boltons due to the Greatjons situation.

Show = Umbers fiercely loyal to Starks, get pissed because Jon let wildlings south of the wall and join up with Bolton in protest, using Rickon as proof of their loyalty.

It doesn't have to be a "good" reason, it just has to be a reason. There is a pattern of this happening throughout the shows history.

I agree. Ramsey will have his alliance - Karstarks, Umbers and Manderleys. He said so in ep 2. IF there will be a northern lord that changes alliances from Boltons to Starks at last minute, it will be Manderly. 

The question I have, are you sure that "supposedly changes alliagences" are from Boltons to Stark and not from Stark to Bolton? If second, Umbers fit the bill for the show.

[White Harbors Wrath]

1 hour ago, Masha said:

Ramsey specifically mentioned Karstarks, Umbers and Manderlys. So Manderlys will be there its a given. The question will be, will they be there to play Ramsey like their did Boltons/Freys in the book or just generic Bolton loyalist

I doubt it, too much complication for the show. If the gift is Rickon, he will be the victim/prisoner of Ramsey. Either Ramsey plays him to hate Jon/Sansa or he locks him up and tries to break him. I doubt it - 99% doubt it that Rickon if free to roam will be taking revenge.

Umbers might be just straight up Bolton loyalists. They were not that outspoken as Wyman was in the books, so its not a big deviation for them to be upset at Starks for something like Wildlings, going South and getting killed or being weak.

The show needs to create a big battle, therefore, at the end Jon Snow must be outnumbered/equal army to Ramsey's. For that Ramsey needs Umbers as well as Karstarks. I am just not sure about Manderly's here. They might just play as in the books, or have Wymans role be taken by Mormonts.  Its more straightforward for them, and D&D proven they want simple.

 

 

I agree. Ramsey will have his alliance - Karstarks, Umbers and Manderleys. He said so in ep 2. IF there will be a northern lord that changes alliances from Boltons to Starks at last minute, it will be Manderly. 

The question I have, are you sure that "supposedly changes alliagences" are from Boltons to Stark and not from Stark to Bolton? If second, Umbers fit the bill for the show.

It was two different castings. The second one is "Fletcher", speculation is that "Boyce" is the new lord Cerwyn, after Ramsay flayed his parents last season. We also know Lyanna Mormont is in as Davos has a scene with her.

Smalljon Umber (Dean S. Jagger): Smalljon is a lord in the North, a massive bear of a man with “a hatred that runs deep.” He’s the son of Greatjon Umber, whom we met in season 1. We confirmed Jagger’s casting with a reader’s help after a photo turned up on Instagram.

Lord Karstark: The new Lord Karstark is intimidating, ruthless and calculating, according to his casting notice, and we’ll see him in 3 episodes next season. The role’s casting is unknown at present.

Fletcher: He’s a fat Northern nobleman in his 60’s who makes a stirring speech. Fletcher may not be the character’s real name.

Boyce: He’s a callow young Northern nobleman in his 20’s who has been thrust into a position of power before he is ready. He has a couple speeches and was scheduled to film on the same day as Fletcher.

Ive also seen it as this...

“Fletcher”:  He is a fat nobleman in his 60’s. He has distinctive rugged features, a Northern accent, and a distinguished air. Our source says he has a stirring speech during which he unexpectedly shifts political allegiances.

[The Answer]

8 hours ago, Hibee87 said:

I read a kinda spoiler a while back from maisie williams saying Rickon will be in season 6 LATER on. To me this means that the theory of a fake rickon as a ruse is the most likely outcome for 'the gift', if it is even rickon at all.

Spoiler

Some people are claiming with certainty that Rickon is going to die.  I'm sure there's a reliable source out there, but hopefully it is.. like you said.. a fake Rickon

 

[Lord_Ravenstone]

On 5/6/2016 at 1:57 AM, Arataniello said:

Given the contraction of so many plot lines in the TV version, the Umbers are probably playing the role that the Manderleys do in the books - namely a house that allies with the Boltons, but only to betray them.  

If this is the case, then they may very well bring Rickon with them to Winterfell as a way to demonstrate their allegiance to Bolton, only to reveal their true colours (i.e. the Starks being the rightful lords of the North) later.
 

That would be the most idiotic plan ever. 

Why put your liege lord in Ramsay's hands after they just flayed the Cerwyns?

Hell, they don't even have to prove their allegiance. Ramsay needs them.

[Anne Hill Crosby]

Well, if it is real Rickon I might have to go to Westeros myself. But that whole GNC thing, and if it is real Rickon? There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. We don't know what these northern families know, or don't know.

[tmug]

I think what we can take out of the most recent shocking GoT deaths is that they seemingly have little to no role in the end game of things. We see this with Jojen, Barristan and Stannis. I could easily see D&D use Rickon as another death to yet further establish the new villain to the show for the TV audience. Rickon probably has no impact to the end game, so lets use him to further put Ramsey down the deep end to make us hate him more than we hated Joffery. 

What bugs me about the show is that back in S1, they already hinted that Rickon also has Greenseer abilities and perhaps even more powerful than Bran's. Rickon already knew of Ned's death and was more sure of that than Bran ever was. Why write that part into the story only to kill him off by the Boltons? Wouldn't Rickon 'know' the Umbers would betray his family through a dream or did he just all of a sudden lose his powers? Did the Umbers kill Shaggydog and therefore his powers go away much like Sansa with her wolf?

 

[Lord_Ravenstone]

On May 5, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Hodor's Aunt said:

not if you are'nt the current lord of last hearth. If you are an ambitious traitor you would abduct the boy bring him to your liege lord and get the lordship in return.

The Smalljon is the Greatjon's son and heir 

why even do all that in that case

[Lord_Ravenstone]

23 hours ago, tmug said:

I think what we can take out of the most recent shocking GoT deaths is that they seemingly have little to no role in the end game of things. We see this with Jojen, Barristan and Stannis. I could easily see D&D use Rickon as another death to yet further establish the new villain to the show for the TV audience. Rickon probably has no impact to the end game, so lets use him to further put Ramsey down the deep end to make us hate him more than we hated Joffery. 

What bugs me about the show is that back in S1, they already hinted that Rickon also has Greenseer abilities and perhaps even more powerful than Bran's. Rickon already knew of Ned's death and was more sure of that than Bran ever was. Why write that part into the story only to kill him off by the Boltons? Wouldn't Rickon 'know' the Umbers would betray his family through a dream or did he just all of a sudden lose his powers? Did the Umbers kill Shaggydog and therefore his powers go away much like Sansa with her wolf?

 

What's the endgame? The final 10 chapters. 

Cersei's not going to play a role in the endgame. Why not kill her off now? 

[Red Tiger]

On 7-5-2016 at 9:26 PM, Lord_Ravenstone said:

That would be the most idiotic plan ever. 

Why put your liege lord in Ramsay's hands after they just flayed the Cerwyns?

Hell, they don't even have to prove their allegiance. Ramsay needs them.

What, you mean like kinslaying your father who is the only thing keeping your House in control of the North, with witnesses around?

Or maybe killing your lover's family, while you yourself are a bastard with bastard kids who cant inherit either, all in the name of supposedly avenging him?

[Azul DeLaRosa]

All I can hope for Rickon is that he can find his warg powers and control Ramsey's pack of dogs. Dogs came from wolves, right? So then, should he be able to reach out and tap into the alpha, perhaps? 

I feel almost positive that the reason for Jon to hurry to march on Winterfell will be to rescue Rickon, instead of Sansa. I like this twist to the story so it would be interesting to see if it plays out how I imagine. 

 

 

[StarkofWinterfell]

It sucked to see Shaggydog's head cut off.

[GeorgeIAF]

Cue the "Fletcher" casting description. We're all seeing the GNC start in motion, and Wyman will be delivering the speech where he states his true allegiances. That was clearly not Shaggydog and Rickon and Osha were way too calm when presented to Ramsay, like all was rehearsed and planned.

The Umbers know that Ramsay wants Sansa and he will not kill Rickon, that's why they took the risk with giving him to Ramsay, also maybe having Karstark close to Ramsay will ensure he doesn't do anything stupid which may put in danger Rickon's life.

[GilletteMace]

rickon vs ramsey

0:1

rickon could use a good skinning, hes old enough now.

[Tianzi]

32 minutes ago, GeorgeIAF said:

The Umbers know that Ramsay wants Sansa and he will not kill Rickon, that's why they took the risk with giving him to Ramsay, also maybe having Karstark close to Ramsay will ensure he doesn't do anything stupid which may put in danger Rickon's life.

Kill, maybe not. He also didn't kill Theon.

And ensuring Ramsay doesn't do anything stupid....good luck with that.

Poor Rickon, they didn't tell him that Ramsay is the main character now. Next episode he will be feeding King Tommen to his dogs.

Ah, and they should really chill with puppy-killing.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

37 minutes ago, GeorgeIAF said:

Cue the "Fletcher" casting description. We're all seeing the GNC start in motion, and Wyman will be delivering the speech where he states his true allegiances. That was clearly not Shaggydog and Rickon and Osha were way too calm when presented to Ramsay, like all was rehearsed and planned.

The Umbers know that Ramsay wants Sansa and he will not kill Rickon, that's why they took the risk with giving him to Ramsay, also maybe having Karstark close to Ramsay will ensure he doesn't do anything stupid which may put in danger Rickon's life.

C'mon on, man. You're in serious denial and you're not the only one.

This is starting to get sad, guys.

Why even give Ramsay to Rickon if they're planning on betraying him? They could've used a fake boy that looks like him.

This is the same exact lameass writing that D & D always pull. People are always trying to make the show seem more intelligent than it actually is, but it's not.