Why the surprise? (SPOILERS)

[Cas Stark]

What is the rationale for Ned giving Dayne a final slash with his sword?  Oh right, it was the gift of mercy, despite that his expression during the scene does not convey any such thing.

If Martin has Ned Stark look a dying Arthur Dayne in the eyes and slashes him across the chest with his sword without saying a word to him I will burn the books.

[Xcorpyo001]

28 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That's the books.  This is the show.  In the books what happened with Dayne is only whispered about at Winterfell.

In the show, Bran has heard the story of his father's defeat of Arthur Dayne 1000x.  There is nothing in the show that suggests his father refused to talk about it.

If the purpose of the scene wasn't to discredit Ned Stark, why not have him say something to Dayne before he gives the gift of mercy, with a dagger, not a sword?  

I seriously don't see how anyone can see that final stab and think that was Ned Stark being merciful, it's laughable.

 

The only thing that is laughable is thinking that you can’t give someone a quick death without using the Purple Dagger of the Gift of Mercy. “Ohhh, I am so sorry mate, I only have 234 swords, 500 spears and 34 sword breakers. I guess I can’t possibly give you the quick death you deserve because I’m lacking the right tools for the job. ”

But back on topic. Ned discredited himself by killing a dying Dayne, with a sword(the horror). Just so I understand, what would have been the ‘honorable’  thing to do in that situation, from your point of view? Watch him slowly die while choking on his own blood? Kill Reed for interfering and saving his life? Kill himself to even the score?

And let’s say Ned in the TV has no problem telling people about ToJ, is a braggart and loses no occasion to showcase his awesome skills and tell everybody how much better he was than all the weaklings he killed over the years. Can you give me several examples of this from the TV show? I don’t seem to remember them clearly now. Don’t need 1000, 5 or 6 will do. Oh, and I’m talking about lies he tells people about his prowess in battle or even in bed(the stories he must have told about his many conquests, the orgies, and all the fun he had with Jon’s minx of a mother). Bragging about something he did won’t do.

Bran’s line hold as much weight as the line about Elaria ruling Dorne.

 

[SerJimmyJangle]

1 minute ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

The only thing that is laughable is thinking that you can’t give someone a quick death without using the Purple Dagger of the Gift of Mercy. “Ohhh, I am so sorry mate, I only have 234 swords, 500 spears and 34 sword breakers. I guess I can’t possibly give you the quick death you deserve because I’m lacking the right tools for the job. ”

 

But back on topic. Ned discredited himself by killing a dying Dayne, with a sword(the horror). Just so I understand, what would have been the ‘honorable’  thing to do in that situation, from your point of view? Watch him slowly die while choking on his own blood? Kill Reed for interfering and saving his life? Kill himself to even the score?

 

And let’s say Ned in the TV has no problem telling people about ToJ, is a braggart and loses no occasion to showcase his awesome skills and tell everybody how much better he was than all the weaklings he killed over the years. Can you give me several examples of this from the TV show? I don’t seem to remember them clearly now. Don’t need 1000, 5 or 6 will do. Oh, and I’m talking about lies he tells people about his prowess in battle or even in bed(the stories he must have told about his many conquests, the orgies, and all the fun he had with Jon’s minx of a mother). Bragging about something he did won’t do.

 

Bran’s line hold as much weight as the line about Elaria ruling Dorne.

 

 

This, 1000x (lulz).

[Cas Stark]

7 minutes ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

The only thing that is laughable is thinking that you can’t give someone a quick death without using the Purple Dagger of the Gift of Mercy. “Ohhh, I am so sorry mate, I only have 234 swords, 500 spears and 34 sword breakers. I guess I can’t possibly give you the quick death you deserve because I’m lacking the right tools for the job. ”

 

But back on topic. Ned discredited himself by killing a dying Dayne, with a sword(the horror). Just so I understand, what would have been the ‘honorable’  thing to do in that situation, from your point of view? Watch him slowly die while choking on his own blood? Kill Reed for interfering and saving his life? Kill himself to even the score?

 

And let’s say Ned in the TV has no problem telling people about ToJ, is a braggart and loses no occasion to showcase his awesome skills and tell everybody how much better he was than all the weaklings he killed over the years. Can you give me several examples of this from the TV show? I don’t seem to remember them clearly now. Don’t need 1000, 5 or 6 will do. Oh, and I’m talking about lies he tells people about his prowess in battle or even in bed(the stories he must have told about his many conquests, the orgies, and all the fun he had with Jon’s minx of a mother). Bragging about something he did won’t do.

 

Bran’s line hold as much weight as the line about Elaria ruling Dorne.

 

 

For the last time and then I'm out:

1) Use a dagger

2) Speak words to Dayne

3) Show from his you know "acting" that he is regretful of what he's doing

4) Why would you expect the cowardly Ned who lets his son be told a lie openly 1000x times to have appeared in the show before?  Characterizations and motivations change on a dime and/or are retconned into whatever the plot demands.

5) ETA, so people think that Ellaria is not rulling Dorne on the show?  LMAO. Okay then. Party on.

Maybe folks should rewatch the scene.  

He slashes him across the chest, how is this going to ensure he dies?  

The expression when he slashes Dayne across the chest is not one of sadness or regret, he looks satisfied to me.

[Juan_Snow]

On 5/11/2016 at 3:22 PM, Cas Stark said:

1000 times, according to Bran, LOL, since the implication is absolutely that Ned is the one who has told the story, and as I said earlier in the thread, only 2 people could tell any version of the story, Ned and Howland Reed.  It stands to reason, then, that Bran's version of the story came from Ned Stark.  Lies and bragging.

And since show Ned also stabbed Dayne after he was stabbed from behind, it's another example of his lack of honor. Sorry, that wasn't the gift of mercy he was giving, that was a coward getting in a final shot.

When exactly did Bran say he heard the story 1000 times from his father?  He likely never heard the story from Ned.  Old Nan probably bragged that her lord defeated the Sword of the Morning 900 times.

[Xcorpyo001]

14 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

 

For the last time and then I'm out:

1) Use a dagger

2) Speak words to Dayne

3) Show from his you know "acting" that he is regretful of what he's doing

4) Why would you expect the cowardly Ned who lets his son be told a lie openly 1000x times to have appeared in the show before?  Characterizations and motivations change on a dime and/or are retconned into whatever the plot demands.

5) ETA, so people think that Ellaria is not rulling Dorne on the show?  LMAO. Okay then. Party on.

Maybe folks should rewatch the scene.  

He slashes him across the chest, how is this going to ensure he dies?  

The expression when he slashes Dayne across the chest is not one of sadness or regret, he looks satisfied to me.

 

Well, Dayne looked quite dead after that hit. That is enough assurance for me. 

Acting? That guy's face seemed frozen in place the whole time. When he said his "Now it ends!" line he looked like he was smirking. Or was that on purpose as well? 

You know, I was once in a similar position to Bran. My parents used to tell me these stories about an old guy who visits us every year and brings us gifts if we are good children. Imagine my disappointment when I found out those monsters lied to me for years. I wished they could just walk off a cliff and die. I will never forgive them for this. The honor less dogs.  There is a special place in Hell for people like them. And they dare judge people like Jaime Lannister when they watch  Game of Thrones.

 

As for the Dorne stuff, I...On second thought, nevermind.

[El Guapo]

Honest to God this whole discussion is ridiculous. Literally no viewer outside those that live in the ranting and raving world looks at that scene and says "you know Ned Stark is a lying braggart cowardly piece of shit". Like literally no one thinks that.  Truly baffling.

[mattnj81]

8 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Honest to God this whole discussion is ridiculous. Literally no viewer outside those that live in the ranting and raving world looks at that scene and says "you know Ned Stark is a lying braggart cowardly piece of shit". Like literally no one thinks that.  Truly baffling.

Agreed. There is one person who is particularly angry about it for some reason. They are of course entitled to their opinion and should just be left to it.

[the tower of albion]

It will definitely play out different in the books. The Howland would most likely have a net and trident. A swordsman vs a swordsman and a skilled fighter with net and trident.

Let's also consider Arthur not wanting to kill Ned but looking for an honorable death, so purposefully dropping his guard. That same sense of ennui that Jamie is currently experiencing.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

Ned just ended it as quick as he could. Was it his chest or was it his neck? They cut away (like with Brienne & Stannis). 

After all that fighting he'd be so tired & be straining to continue lifting the sword.  No time for little dying chit chats & a smoke while his sister(?) was in the tower screaming. For all he knew Dayne would've done a mountain on him if he started chatting.

Ned ended it just like he said. Man of his word

 

[Mikeygigs]

Cas Stark takes this WAAAY too far, but some people defending the show are also drinking the kool-aid. I especially like the guys quoting Catelyn's inner thoughts about hearing rumors in Winterfell. Its quite amusing that they fail to mention that she remembers Ned quashing all mention of those rumors, literally, a few lines down. The other guy claiming 'someone like Rodrick Cassel' telling Bran is also pretty laughable; the master at arms is telling stories his lord does not want anyone to hear, especially after he censures his wife for even asking about it? Okay! If people are going to go out of our way to suggest alternatives to Ned telling his kids about him killing Dayne himself (and generally filling in the show's other plotholes, and/or lack of explanation), maybe we should at least look to the source material first to see if the explanation is plausible.

In any case, the idea that Ned is dishonorable in this fight is, like many things in this show, cheap and unearned. Its no surprise that few understood or interpreted the scene that way.

As a book fan, their commentary was a needless spin that was not necessary. As a critic of show, the scene itself was exceedingly awkward, but nicely shot and somewhat entertaining (two-sworded Dayne took me out of it mainly due to how lame it looked, nothing to do with Dawn).

Despite all that, the scene itself was not something that offended me. The showrunners' implications of the scene are what turns me off more than anything; their story and adaptation decisions continue to baffle me.

[Xcorpyo001]

57 minutes ago, Mikeygigs said:

Despite all that, the scene itself was not something that offended me. The showrunners' implications of the scene are what turns me off more than anything; their story and adaptation decisions continue to baffle me.

^100% this.

"Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen."    Love your signature, this is so 1000%

D&D. It's nice to see that they have the balls to admit how their creative process really works.

[Vastet]

Personally I think that the TOJ incident is Ned's motivation for honour. That he feels so guilty about what happened that it drove him to become so obsessed with being honourable.

As for the story Bran is familiar with, as eluded to by others, I don't think Ned ever actually told the story. Everyone knows he met the Kingsguard in battle. Everyone knows he's the one to walk away. Ned doesn't ever have to say anything, the people will gossip and the version the most people like will be the version that gets told most often.

[ShadowKitteh]

The beauty of ASOIAF is that nothing is black or white. Everything is grey, including every character.

This scene is the setup for Bran (and the audience) to believe Ned's lying about Jon's parentage (to everyone, including Catelyn, and having his honor/wedding vows besmirched), and taking that lie to his grave.

That's it. Nothing more.

So Bran has now learned that Ned isn't the paragon of honor and virtue with Ned on the Father Pedestal™ he believed he was his entire life because he never discussed details of how the fight with Dayne actually went down, because that would open up a lot more questions like, why he was fighting Dayne in the first place. Better to just leave them with the awe that Ned wasn't killed by the greatest swordsman ever. 

Bran (and the audience) will eventually learn that Ned put his survival and his family first, instead of fighting "honorably." Bronn at the Eyrie anyone? 

Funny, Jamie saved the world by not fighting "honorably", and Ned criticizes him for it. No wonder Jamie holds on to his anger... Save the King, or the entire city? Save my sister or die honorably? I love the brilliant line D&D&B gave Jamie in S2 to Catelyn & Brienne: 

Quote

So many vows. They make you swear and swear. Defend the King. Obey the King. Obey your Father. Protect the innocent, defend the weak. What if your Father despises the King? What if the King massacres the innocent? It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow for another.

Well, now Bran won't have a problem believing that Ned would lie about Jon so he and his family, including Jon, could survive Robert's wrath.

Blowing up that scene into anything more is just an exercise in nitpickery.

[Back in Black-Snow]

I've watched the scene several time, and to me, it looks like Ned was just trying to cut his throat, as in "just die already." Then, you have to consider who Arthur Dayne was and his reputation in battle - yes, I imagine young Ned was a bit relieved immediately following such an encounter where he probably was certain he was going to die.

And there is no possible way Ned could control what his children heard from all others at all times.

But I think Jamie got the gist of it when he was talking about all the oaths he's sworn and how to uphold one oath you almost always have to end up breaking another. Some times the right thing to do is not the most honorable thing to do and some rules may require bending. Going to end this here because my connection is getting spotty for some reason.

[GraveWorries]

On 5/13/2016 at 2:31 PM, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

The only thing that is laughable is thinking that you can’t give someone a quick death without using the Purple Dagger of the Gift of Mercy. “Ohhh, I am so sorry mate, I only have 234 swords, 500 spears and 34 sword breakers. I guess I can’t possibly give you the quick death you deserve because I’m lacking the right tools for the job. ”

 

But back on topic. Ned discredited himself by killing a dying Dayne, with a sword(the horror). Just so I understand, what would have been the ‘honorable’  thing to do in that situation, from your point of view? Watch him slowly die while choking on his own blood? Kill Reed for interfering and saving his life? Kill himself to even the score?

 

And let’s say Ned in the TV has no problem telling people about ToJ, is a braggart and loses no occasion to showcase his awesome skills and tell everybody how much better he was than all the weaklings he killed over the years. Can you give me several examples of this from the TV show? I don’t seem to remember them clearly now. Don’t need 1000, 5 or 6 will do. Oh, and I’m talking about lies he tells people about his prowess in battle or even in bed(the stories he must have told about his many conquests, the orgies, and all the fun he had with Jon’s minx of a mother). Bragging about something he did won’t do.

 

Bran’s line hold as much weight as the line about Elaria ruling Dorne.

 

 

Somebody stabbed through the neck will be dead in seconds. Severed carotid, jugular or spinal cord There wouldn't be time or any need for the, "gift of mercy".

[Xcorpyo001]

8 hours ago, GraveWorries said:

Somebody stabbed through the neck will be dead in seconds. Severed carotid, jugular or spinal cord There wouldn't be time or any need for the, "gift of mercy".

 

Well, that is part of the problem. Dayne should have died in seconds. If a guy severs someone’s spine and carotid artery, he’s dead, he'll drop out-cold immediately from the blood pressure drop, and bleed out in less than a minute.

This scene really shows how heavy handed D&D need to be to make such a huge character change, without any previous scenes that could corroborate that.

So, Ned comes with 5 of his best friends to save his sister. Dayne is stubborn and still insists on doing his duty, although his king is dead by now. They fight, 6 guys die, Dayne is on his knees(although he should be dead or at least unconscious), and Ned uses Dawn to end the fight.

At this point, people can come up with their own interpretation of the scene. All the things we see changed from what we knew about this scene for before seeing it . Ned hitting Dayne at the end could either being seen as giving the guy a quick death, or just Ned unleashing his pent-up anger at seeing 4 of his best friends butchered by the guy standing in front of him As for the different story, he could do that to protect a little Bran from the realities of war, or to protect his friend Howland from the backlash he could receive for stabbing Dayne in the back, etc.

Ten people watching this scene could come up with 10 different ways to look at it. We see this clearly from the divisive opinions on this thread. But D&D want to make sure we understand exactly how we should see this scene as, and this is plain wrong. Not to mention the lengths they went through to make sure we understand their position on this issue.

Bran’s commentary during the fight is pointless. So is his surprise and abject horror at seeing his father’s despicable actions.

Ned looks like a jerk when delivering his lines, even smirking when realizing that a fight is inevitable and he’ll have to put his friends’ life in danger, and kill two KG that were just doing their duty from their point of view. Don’t know if it was deliberate or just bad acting, but it’s bad either way.

When someone is stabbed in the neck and has both his spine and/or carotid artery(es) severed, loss of consciousness is almost instantaneous, and death in a minute or two. But we have to see him conscious, because Ned has to hit him one more time while he’s down. Not that it would have mattered anyway, the guy was beyond saving at this point. But we need to puncture that pesky honor somehow, so I guess we can suppress our common sense for several seconds.

And this is not the first time they seem to gloss over how wounds really work in real life. In the Dorne scene, Areo is stabbed in the back with a small knife and is insta killed. Even if the spine was hit and the dagger was poisoned, he would have had 2-3 seconds of lucidity left, not to mention control of his upper body. In two seconds, he could have killed both the bad pussy chick and Ellaria, and still have time to have a smoke and a good drink. A sick and weakened Doran on the other hand is stabbed in the heart, but still survives for a minute, because Ellaria still need to explain to him(watchers) how she’ll kill his son as well, and that from now on only bad pussy will rule Dorne. Thank you D&D, for making me associate the ToJ scene with the show Dorne. You suck.

And to make sure they really drive the lesson home, they even have the actor playing Bran have an interview in which he explains how devastated Bran was to have such a honourless guy for a father, and seeing his true character for the first time.

And then D&D hammer this down even further in the after the episode thing they do.

D&D: “So, all you need to get from this scene is the fact that Ned is a cunt.”

Watchers: “But there wasn’t any previous setup for this huge change in character, the books are clear about him not being a cunt, and some aspects of the scene could be explained…”

D&D: “No, no, no. He is a cunt!”

[sandpiper]

On 14/05/2016 at 1:48 AM, ShadowKitteh said:

The beauty of ASOIAF is that nothing is black or white. Everything is grey, including every character.

This scene is the setup for Bran (and the audience) to believe Ned's lying about Jon's parentage (to everyone, including Catelyn, and having his honor/wedding vows besmirched), and taking that lie to his grave.

That's it. Nothing more.

So Bran has now learned that Ned isn't the paragon of honor and virtue with Ned on the Father Pedestal™ he believed he was his entire life because he never discussed details of how the fight with Dayne actually went down, because that would open up a lot more questions like, why he was fighting Dayne in the first place. Better to just leave them with the awe that Ned wasn't killed by the greatest swordsman ever. 

Blowing up that scene into anything more is just an exercise in nitpickery.

Critics are working in the dark. In the books we may yet get this exact same scene complete with commentary by the raven that Dayne is much the better fighter, etc. Or it could be handled differently, with Howland reed giving a first hand witness report. But I see no reason to assume the series has diverged from the books on this scene. The details about how Dayne fights, adjusting the number of fighters, are all well within the changes of detail you might expect in order to make filming easier, without making any difference to important matters.

As far as I recall, Ned never lied about Jon's parentage to anyone. In the books anyway he is always referring to Jon as 'his blood', and I have no reason thus far to disbelieve him as everything points to his sister as the mother. Totally consistent with his declinining to legitimate him, which would have been a lie.  I assume this scene is designed to work for those people who have not studied the plot or books, or forums like this. It is simply meant to tip viewers off that things are not quite as they have been portrayed. To get them puzzling about it. Which is exactly what the information spread about in the books did for us some time ago.

 

 

 

[Vastet]

In the show he definitely lied to Robert about Jon's parentage. We saw him do so in episode 2 or 3.

[ShadowKitteh]

8 hours ago, sandpiper said:

Critics are working in the dark. In the books we may yet get this exact same scene complete with commentary by the raven that Dayne is much the better fighter, etc. Or it could be handled differently, with Howland reed giving a first hand witness report. But I see no reason to assume the series has diverged from the books on this scene. The details about how Dayne fights, adjusting the number of fighters, are all well within the changes of detail you might expect in order to make filming easier, without making any difference to important matters.

As far as I recall, Ned never lied about Jon's parentage to anyone. In the books anyway he is always referring to Jon as 'his blood', and I have no reason thus far to disbelieve him as everything points to his sister as the mother. Totally consistent with his declinining to legitimate him, which would have been a lie.  I assume this scene is designed to work for those people who have not studied the plot or books, or forums like this. It is simply meant to tip viewers off that things are not quite as they have been portrayed. To get them puzzling about it. Which is exactly what the information spread about in the books did for us some time ago.

 

 

 

Totally agree with everything you said, except, Ned told everyone Jon was his son, in both book and show, and several characters talk about it. That's still lying. 

For the show, the audience needs to find out who both of Jon's parents really are at the same time, not just who did Ned cheat on Catelyn with. 

If they were to reveal only Lyanna as Jon's mother, millions of fans head's would explode, because they'd immediately assume Ned slept with his own sister, which is not the case. Best to reveal both at the same time.