[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Reprecussions - Season 6 Edition

[A Ghost of Someone]

Just now, Le Cygne said:

Maybe LF marries Jon.

Yeah, that would be a twist. Oops, pun not intended.

[A Ghost of Someone]

1 minute ago, LazyBazooka said:

Jon becomes King in the North, but he knows that Bran is still alive, and Sansa is alive and standing right there. Guess the Northern lords forgot what the right of succession is and they all live in a democracy now.

How many are left, some rumors are that the other houses that sat out the battle all come to pay their respects to the Starks. I hope they bring their armies as LF will undoubtably attempt to force is will or threaten it. With a smirk on his face of course.

[sweetsunray]

22 minutes ago, The Wull said:

They don't even pull it off though.  What has Cersei ever done to  make her a grey character? Ned had no redeeming qualities according to the show's revision, he's just an foolish, bragging asshole who kills great knights dishonorably. Ramsay was just a kid with a bad childhood whose father never loved him.  They're going for grey, and they can't even manage that.

That's exactly my point - if someone walks up to you wearing a white T-shirt on black pants and says "I'm wearing grey" you'd look at them funny and think they haven't got a c lue what "grey" is.

A grey character is not bad person + good person characteristics. Grey character is having to make difficult moral choices, with bad and good consequences. Take Tyrion for example - I'll defend the city and defeat Stannis and remain loyal to my shit family, but at the same time he knows he's helping a sicko like Joffrey to keep the throne and knows Cersei's children aren't even real Baratheons. Or take Ned Stark - shit I know Cersei's children aren't Roberts and I should tell him, but then he's gonna kill those children, what do I do? And though Ned's confrontation with Cersei didn't get his friend killed (timing mentioned reveals that Robert was already hurt or gored when Ned confronted Cersei), it does put a mark on his family and his daughters.

But d$d do "rape victim" + "smirk at rapist being eaten by dogs" => grey.

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Maybe LF marries Jon.

Sandra: What do you want?

LF: I thought you knew what I want?

Jon walks by

LF: I want him

[A Ghost of Someone]

Another thing. Ned's bones were last with Cat and LF in the Stormlands in season 2. Supposedly they are interred in the Crypts of Winterfell now, despite, the Greyjoys and Boltons having it since then? Small matter I know but hey.

[A Ghost of Someone]

So, are they saving Ghost for a scene next week? I would love for him to accompany from the shadows, Sansa into the Godswood when she meets Creepy Finger and has him killed. Then I will proudly proclaim her Boss Ass Bitch from Heaven for that.

[Tijgy]

34 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Maybe Loser Show Jon will grovel at her feet. After all, he needed her and her pimp to beat Ramsay. They turned his whole story into a background character in her rape revenge fanfic. I guess they will finally get around to that resurrection thing at some point. And his parentage, that's central to the series. It's not like Jon is important or anything.

(I think maybe he doesn't find out about his parentage this season, either.)

Bran has to find out first? They are probably making Bran see it first and tell him to Jon. On the other side ... Jon and LF are now together. Who knows? I think we had no LF exposition this season. 

[SeanF]

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That's exactly my point - if someone walks up to you wearing a white T-shirt on black pants and says "I'm wearing grey" you'd look at them funny and think they haven't got a c lue what "grey" is.

A grey character is not bad person + good person characteristics. Grey character is having to make difficult moral choices, with bad and good consequences. Take Tyrion for example - I'll defend the city and defeat Stannis and remain loyal to my shit family, but at the same time he knows he's helping a sicko like Joffrey to keep the throne and knows Cersei's children aren't even real Baratheons. Or take Ned Stark - shit I know Cersei's children aren't Roberts and I should tell him, but then he's gonna kill those children, what do I do? And though Ned's confrontation with Cersei didn't get his friend killed (timing mentioned reveals that Robert was already hurt or gored when Ned confronted Cersei), it does put a mark on his family and his daughters.

But d$d do "rape victim" + "smirk at rapist being eaten by dogs" => grey.

That's one type of grey character.

Another type is the kind of character who has both good and bad characteristics.  Like Daenerys in the books combines kindness and compassion with a strong streak of self-righteous cruelty;  Stannis can order men to be burned alive, but accepts Davos' arguments that it would be evil to punish Lord Celtigar's subjects for their lord's defection, and punishes murderers and rapists in his army;  Theon is a swaggering jerk who thinks he's Gods' gift to women, but is racked with remorse for killing the miller's wife and her children;  Asha is a pirate and raider, but still treats her captives decently and has a sensible peace plan;  Melisandre is a religious fanatic, but one who is still capable of acts of kindness, and who is quite sincere in her determination to destroy an existential threat to humanity.

Whereas that kind of nuance is rare in the Show (I think they do get Theon more or less right, and Melisandre in this series does seem riddled with guilt over what she did - prior to that she was a straightforward villain).

[Cas Stark]

LMAO.

A Sansa Vale Rant, from The Atlantic.

Well: We knew Littlefinger had offered Sansa an extra army, and that, when she realized the Stark-friendly forces of the North were scant, she’d sent a letter requesting reinforcements. (Those who paused the shot or paid attention to others who did would have known that the letter was, as presumed, to Littlefinger.) The result was perhaps the laziest form of narrative “surprise” there is—one that makes no sense in the context of the story itself, but is intended solely for the audience. Why, after all, did Sansa never mention the Knights of the Vale to Jon—even when she was schooling him about underestimating Ramsay? Hundreds if not thousands of loyal Northerners no doubt died because she didn’t mention that heavy cavalry was on the way. There was no internal logic to her reticence whatsoever. The only explanation was external: We were supposed to think Ramsay might win before he (very quickly) lost. There have certainly been worse episodes of Game of Thrones, but when I look back years from now I suspect this may be the one where I think it fundamentally jumped the shark.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/06/game-of-thrones-season-6-episode-9-battle-of-the-bastards/487595/

 

[Tijgy]

I also think it is horrible there were going again with their honorable and stupid thing .

[Apathetic Onlooker]

47 minutes ago, LazyBazooka said:

Jon becomes King in the North, but he knows that Bran is still alive, and Sansa is alive and standing right there. Guess the Northern lords forgot what the right of succession is and they all live in a democracy now.

Yeah I like how everyone's forgotten about Bran in all this.  You'd think Sansa and Jon would talk about him at least once considering what they knew about Rickon.

[a black swan]

4 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

And she is smirking because why again?

Because her failure to tell Jon about the Vale Army probably got hundreds of men needlessly killed? 

Because her failure to tell Jon about the Vale Army made it more likely to get Jon killed?

Because she thinks it's really cool to gripe at Jon for not having enough troops (even though Jon knows this. So, thanks Fieldmarshal Fansa),but then she knows where to get more and doesn't tell Jon that? Plus there is the fact that she is the one that put Jon up to this and he does what she wants and then she does what? Leaves Jon and his men hanging out to dry? Why is she so careless about Jon's life and the lives of his men? Because of "empowerment"? Because of revenge?

D & D probably think they did a bang up job here with Fansa's character here. But, they did a terrible job. And she doesn't look very good at all here.

*applauds* This was so spot on!!!

[Le Cygne]

37 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

LMAO.

A Sansa Vale Rant, from The Atlantic.

Well: We knew Littlefinger had offered Sansa an extra army, and that, when she realized the Stark-friendly forces of the North were scant, she’d sent a letter requesting reinforcements. (Those who paused the shot or paid attention to others who did would have known that the letter was, as presumed, to Littlefinger.) The result was perhaps the laziest form of narrative “surprise” there is—one that makes no sense in the context of the story itself, but is intended solely for the audience. Why, after all, did Sansa never mention the Knights of the Vale to Jon—even when she was schooling him about underestimating Ramsay? Hundreds if not thousands of loyal Northerners no doubt died because she didn’t mention that heavy cavalry was on the way. There was no internal logic to her reticence whatsoever. The only explanation was external: We were supposed to think Ramsay might win before he (very quickly) lost. There have certainly been worse episodes of Game of Thrones, but when I look back years from now I suspect this may be the one where I think it fundamentally jumped the shark.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/06/game-of-thrones-season-6-episode-9-battle-of-the-bastards/487595/

It's true, and it goes back to the beginning. They could have claimed the troops from the start. She should have told Jon as soon as she got the letter from LF. They could have claimed the Vale troops then. SR sent the troops for Sansa. And then to not tell him again...

These are the same people who brought us the idiot or enemy plot in season 5, and they did it again in season 6. After having the character herself call out that season 5 made no sense, they then proceeded to have her behave in a way that made no sense in season 6.

[Le Cygne]

47 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

Bran has to find out first? They are probably making Bran see it first and tell him to Jon. On the other side ... Jon and LF are now together. Who knows? I think we had no LF exposition this season. 

Yeah, who knows. I wouldn't put it past them to have LF tell him. Supposedly there's a flashback but we don't get to hear what she said.

[TheCasualObserver]

35 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

LMAO.

A Sansa Vale Rant, from The Atlantic.

Well: We knew Littlefinger had offered Sansa an extra army, and that, when she realized the Stark-friendly forces of the North were scant, she’d sent a letter requesting reinforcements. (Those who paused the shot or paid attention to others who did would have known that the letter was, as presumed, to Littlefinger.) The result was perhaps the laziest form of narrative “surprise” there is—one that makes no sense in the context of the story itself, but is intended solely for the audience. Why, after all, did Sansa never mention the Knights of the Vale to Jon—even when she was schooling him about underestimating Ramsay? Hundreds if not thousands of loyal Northerners no doubt died because she didn’t mention that heavy cavalry was on the way. There was no internal logic to her reticence whatsoever. The only explanation was external: We were supposed to think Ramsay might win before he (very quickly) lost. There have certainly been worse episodes of Game of Thrones, but when I look back years from now I suspect this may be the one where I think it fundamentally jumped the shark.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/06/game-of-thrones-season-6-episode-9-battle-of-the-bastards/487595/

 

It's nice to see someone actually taking what happened on screen to task rather than reveling in faux "girl powah" moments.

Just how responsible was Sansa for saving Jon anyway? Well, she turned down LF once when he offered his army for free and only weeks later did she write back hoping he'd acquiesce. As it turned out, he did.

But wait a minute - if Sansa hadn't written to LF, what would have happened? Would LF have given up on the entire plan? Sent the Vale lords home after convincing them to help Sansa? He gave Sansa to the Boltons to get Cersei's permission to invade the North. It seems more likely that LF was always going to attack Ramsay at some point anyway because you can't put that much time and effort into a plan to take over the north and then abandon it when Sansa doesn't send you a letter asking you to do it.

One way or another, LF was trying to take the North. Sansa simply told him when to attack, and did so tardily, costing the lives of thousands of men. 

[lostcause]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I know how much you enjoy Sansa as a character in the books, and I agree, show Sansa is something completely different.

I could imagine that book Sansa in a position of power would need to command armies and execute people.  I doubt if she would be indifferent to her younger brother's death, deceive Jon Snow on the eve of a desperate battle, or feed even someone she hated to dogs.

The killing of Ramsay is pretty high up on my list of pet peeves from this episode. Not so much that there wasn't some cinematic vengeance to divulge in with him being fed to his own dogs, but I was rather hoping they'd do it the old Stark way: "Let the wo/man who give the order do the deed" and chop-chop.

[TheCasualObserver]

Just now, lostcause said:

The killing of Ramsay is pretty high up on my list of pet peeves from this episode. Not so much that there wasn't some cinematic vengeance to divulge in with him being fed to his own dogs, but I was rather hoping they'd do it the old Stark way: "Let the wo/man who give the order do the deed" and chop-chop.

For a show which often vaunts its "realism" I would have much preferred to see him die from something believable. Sepsis from a wound. Dysentery on campaign. Something which sets the tone that life is not a story.

Not what amount to a rehash of I Spit On Your Grave 40 years late and in the mainstream media.

[Tijgy]

6 minutes ago, Apathetic Onlooker said:

Yeah I like how everyone's forgotten about Bran in all this.  You'd think Sansa and Jon would talk about him at least once considering what they knew about Rickon.

I really feel sorry for Rickon The Wild King Fans. I might have always been defensive of my own favorite for the Lord of Winterfell but I always wanted to have Rickon as his heir  They would have been an amazing team. 

But because I believe the show is completely not the story, I would say to those fans to ignore the show and to defend his lordship to the ones who dare to put it into doubt (like me I have several quotes in which Shaggy appears and disappears, Bran as the heir in WD, ...) I also do this with Summer's fate who will be alive during the Winter to give Bran hope 

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, who knows. I wouldn't put it past them to have LF tell him. Supposedly there's a flashback but we don't get to hear what she said.

LOL, that promise is so relevant to Ned's whole story and we do not even get that. She will just be an object but so was Rickon 

I really want LF out of the North. Come old gods, Ned Stark=Big Fan Of You, avenge your big fan 

[a black swan]

4 minutes ago, Apathetic Onlooker said:

Yeah I like how everyone's forgotten about Bran in all this.  You'd think Sansa and Jon would talk about him at least once considering what they knew about Rickon.

If Bran makes it to Castle Black and word gets back to Winterfell after they already crown Jon. LMAO What a mess. 

LF - this is TOO easy for him. The KL stuff took years to plot and plan. Yet he'll be able to bring down House Stark again without even trying. Something has to shake things up, otherwise it's too predictable. 

Enter the Night King... in season 8. Dany has to conquer Westeros first and they'll give her a good chunk of s7 to do it. 

If Bran does show up, Jon should step aside, take an army south and try and ally with Dany. 

[Le Cygne]

And Sandra still has the card to play of telling everyone that LF pimped her out to the Boltons. So he says that she agreed to it, who are they going to believe. Even so, he kidnapped her after framing her for regicide. Everyone knows she's wanted, but they don't know that he's the one who did it. She's got all sorts of cards to play against him, including killing him, or at the very least imprisoning him, when she had the chance, and claiming the Vale troops SR sent FOR HER (because "she's my cousin"). And she lies to Jon and plays right into LF's hands. Costing many lives, they might have saved Rickon (SR's other cousin), too.

It's all so preposterous. And it's just to prop up this melodramatic fanfic.