White Walker Texas Ranger Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I agree with Sperry. Sometimes shit happens. It doesn't have to be anybody's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Queen Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 1 minute ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said: I agree with Sperry. Sometimes shit happens. It doesn't have to be anybody's fault. Well, that's just it. This didn't have to happen. At all. It was completely preventable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 20 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said: Failed in design? That exhibit had been open for 38 years without incident. 38 years. So no, the problem isn't the design or the zoo's fault. If there's a probability, not even remote, but any probability that a 4 year old child could so easily get into an enclosure that houses animals with an ability to cause harm, then yes-- it is most definitely a design failure. You can argue with that statement until you're blue in the face, and you'd never be right. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Queen Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 4 minutes ago, Maithanet said: The point of the two fences that were in place was to keep people (especially children) out of the enclosure. They were obviously not sufficient. Terrible what happened to the gorilla, who isn't at all to blame for human failures. It worked for 38 years. The barriers aren't the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 2 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said: It worked for 38 years. The barriers aren't the problem. And how many children tried to get through the barriers during that time? We have no idea. This could have been the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weeping Sore Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Many people will find this ridiculous but... a four-year-old should know better than to go into an animal enclosure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mance Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 5 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said: The barriers aren't the problem. Was a small child able to fit through them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 29 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said: In 2013 here in Pittsburgh, a woman thought it might be a grand old idea to stand her 2 year old on top of the barrier (which was more than adequate) that looked down onto an African dog exhibit. Yep, she dropped him and yep the dogs mauled him to death. And she got a pretty penny out of suing the zoo because she was an asshole. Now, I'm sorry her child died, but she was responsible for that, not the zoo. You can't protect people from their own stupidity. Maybe we should build the enclosures to protect the animals from stupid people. You don't actually know what sort of money they received because it was a confidential settlement. The parent was found to be wholly responsible for the death of her child. An adult dangling their child the railing isn't the same as a small child finding his way into a gorilla cage in mere seconds. As for the bolded, maybe what we really should do is not put animals in zoos. I mean, if the public is has such a desperate need to criticize and witch hunt, it would make total sense if they were up in arms over the fact that this family was even at such a despicable place. But I'm guessing no one actually cares all that much about the well being and lives of the animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckwheat Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 5 minutes ago, Weeping Sore said: Many people will find this ridiculous but... a four-year-old should know better than to go into an animal enclosure. I agree. I do not think blame can be put to any specific person or organisation, but it is the duty of the parents to have the "keep with us, do not wander off, the rules in the place we are going are such and such" talk before the outing. The question is if the child can keep the rules in mind for the duration of the visit with so many distractions all around is another thing. But he should be able to know the rules at that age. I hope he gets a good talking to and learns something from the incident at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Queen Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 9 minutes ago, Maithanet said: And how many children tried to get through the barriers during that time? We have no idea. This could have been the first. It was the first. In all that time, through millions of visitors. Clearly, the barriers are adequate. I don't mean to sound harsh towards this woman because anything can happen when you have kids. But the thought that she's going to profit financially from this makes me sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Walker Texas Ranger Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 13 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said: Well, that's just it. This didn't have to happen. At all. It was completely preventable. That still doesn't mean it was anybody's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 There seems to be an impression that this child must have taken some considerable effort to get into the enclosure, and it wasn't a case of the parents just looking away for a second. But if that's the case, are we to assume all of these first hand witnesses didn't notice a child struggling to make their way into the enclosure? Sure, they aren't responsible for the child, but if it wasn't a quick and easy thing for the child to slip in, I have a hard time thinking nobody would try and stop the child. But maybe that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Queen Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 5 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said: You don't actually know what sort of money they received because it was a confidential settlement. The parent was found to be wholly responsible for the death of her child. An adult dangling their child the railing isn't the same as a small child finding his way into a gorilla cage in mere seconds. As for the bolded, maybe what we really should do is not put animals in zoos. I mean, if the public is has such a desperate need to criticize and witch hunt, it would make total sense if they were up in arms over the fact that this family was even at such a despicable place. But I'm guessing no one actually cares all that much about the well being and lives of the animals. The parent in the case here wasn't found to be negligent although the zoo did argue that. It never went to trial, though. The mother, unfortunately, has to live with her moment of bad judgment forever. There was another case where a parent dangled a child over a cheetah enclosure and was found negligent. I mostly agree that animals shouldn't be put in zoos, although as in the case of the lowland gorillas many zoos have good conservation programs and can be great educational resources. They've improved them a lot since we were kids. They're trying to mimic their natural habitat which, of course, is only possible up to a point, but they're not in 8x8 cells anymore. The people who work there genuinely care for the animals. Circuses are another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 5 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said: It was the first. In all that time, through millions of visitors. Clearly, the barriers are adequate. I don't mean to sound harsh towards this woman because anything can happen when you have kids. But the thought that she's going to profit financially from this makes me sick. I've not read anywhere that she is, other than people saying "It wouldn't surprise me if they sued the zoo." Unless I have missed something of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Queen Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 1 minute ago, HelenaExMachina said: I've not read anywhere that she is, other than people saying "It wouldn't surprise me if they sued the zoo." Unless I have missed something of course Oh, she will. It's only a matter of time. They'll wait a decent amount of time to let the furor subside, though. The Derkosh family waited 6 months before filing a lawsuit against Pittsburgh Zoo and PPG Aquarium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weeping Sore Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 To be fair to the Derkosh family, there had been previous reports (2006, 2007, etc) of concern by zoo employees of the African wild dog exhibit being open on one end and people dangling children over the top of the fence. No changes to the enclosure were made. I think most people are ignorant of just how dangerous African wild dogs are, moreover. They quickly disembowel their prey which I'm sure was quite horrifying for the (negligent) mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 5 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said: The parent in the case here wasn't found to be negligent although the zoo did argue that. It never went to trial, though. The mother, unfortunately, has to live with her moment of bad judgment forever. There was another case where a parent dangled a child over a cheetah enclosure and was found negligent. I mostly agree that animals shouldn't be put in zoos, although as in the case of the lowland gorillas many zoos have good conservation programs and can be great educational resources. They've improved them a lot since we were kids. They're trying to mimic their natural habitat which, of course, is only possible up to a point, but they're not in 8x8 cells anymore. The people who work there genuinely care for the animals. Circuses are another story. No, they're not. I've already posted about this so I'm not going to go on another link search. It's a really easy google, in any case. The AZA claims they zoos and aquariums are great educational resources, but that's like the Atkins foundation claiming that the Atkins diet is the best. It's so obviously self serving and neither holds up to third party scrutiny. I'm sure the people who work at zoos claim they care for animals. I have a neighbor who keeps his dog on a three foot chain in the back yard who claims to be a dog lover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 24 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said: As for the bolded, maybe what we really should do is not put animals in zoos. I mean, if the public is has such a desperate need to criticize and witch hunt, it would make total sense if they were up in arms over the fact that this family was even at such a despicable place. But I'm guessing no one actually cares all that much about the well being and lives of the animals. I do. I had an opportunity to take my girls to Sealworld, didn't do it. And despite their desire to, I haven't taken them to the zoo in a few years and likely won't. When people start talking about blame, in a situation like this, it reminds me of this poignant scene from one of my favorite movies [watch to the end] That this is a tragedy is without doubt, but when I talk about responsibility, I don't equate it with blame. I'm old enough, and likewise have enough life experience to know wholeheartedly that the sentiment expressed by Hoffman's character above is truth. But, that doesn't mean something like this happens and you just spread your hands or shrug your shoulders. You can't. One would hope that authorities at the zoo are heartbroken about all this, and no doubt will be looking at the systems of control that they have in place to ensure it can't happen again. But that's their job. That's the responsibility they [nebulous, general 'they'] signed up for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Actually its the Mountain Gorilla that's down to only only abot 600-800 surviving. The Western Lowland Gorilla (of which Harambe was) population, while still endangered, numbers nearer to 80-100,000. Still an awful tragedy though. Mountain Gorillas (the rarer group) are the group we saw portayed in the "Gorillas in the Mist" movie. There are no Mountain Gorillas in captivity. The names of the two subspecies reflect their habitat: lowland gorillas live in the lowland forests, while mountain gorillas live at high elevations, 10,000 feet or higher on the slopes of volcanoes. Mountain gorillas are herbivores, eating plants like wild celery, thistle, and nettles. Special treats are bamboo and bracket fungus. Their food plants grow profusely in the cool, moist mountain climate of their range in Rwanda, Zaire, and Uganda. "THE ZOO IS NOT YOUR FUCKING BABYSITTER" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weeping Sore Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I'm in favor of preserving endangered species in large, protected sanctuaries in climates the animals are adapted to. Advances in camera technology could help raise funds by making online subscriptions available to observe the animals. I think we need an alternative to relying only on these species' natural habitats, which are often being destroyed or encroached upon by parties not under our control. Our fellow great apes in particular (chimpanzees, bonobos, orangutans and gorillas) deserve our protection, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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