Jaime Lannister, a hypocrite and criminal?

[WSmith84]

The whole 'Jaime had to kill Bran to keep his family safe' bit just doesn't wash with me. It ignores the fact that Jaime did something illegal knowing that if anyone ever discovered them, that person would have to be silenced. And the event with Bran doesn't even lead to Jaime having a moment of doubt about his relationship with Cersei; he carries on with it pretty much instantaneously. So he seemed to have been perfectly prepared to toss as many boys out of windows as needed to keep his secret safe. If Jaime really wanted to protect Cersei and her children and not have to kill innocent children, he would have had nothing to do with Cersei and stayed away from her.

Jaime made his choice. He committed to murdering those who uncovered his secret, even children, and to continuing the crime that put his entire family at risk.

[Tianzi]

3 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

The whole 'Jaime had to kill Bran to keep his family safe' bit just doesn't wash with me. It ignores the fact that Jaime did something illegal knowing that if anyone ever discovered them, that person would have to be silenced. And the event with Bran doesn't even lead to Jaime having a moment of doubt about his relationship with Cersei; he carries on with it pretty much instantaneously. So he seemed to have been perfectly prepared to toss as many boys out of windows as needed to keep his secret safe. If Jaime really wanted to protect Cersei and her children and not have to kill innocent children, he would have had nothing to do with Cersei and stayed away from her.

Jaime made his choice. He committed to murdering those who uncovered his secret, even children, and to continuing the crime that put his entire family at risk.

Your post is about someone who thinks his actions through and Jaime was obviously not that someone at that time. Presented with the specific situation, he just went for the simplest solution (let's be honest here, any elaborate plan of escaping was way riskier AND would require convincing Cersei to leave her crown and go into an exile). Nothing suggests he tried to kill or killed any other little boys for the same reason on a regular basis (though he probably would if necessary), it's more like there really wasn't anyone to silence for all those years.

And of course his act was evil. It's easy to remember that, because we know and love Bran (even if some of his chapters are a gigantic snoozefest) and we know how he suffered. His case is much harder to gloss over than Mycah-the-butcher's-boy or the miller's sons. It's no dispute that Jaime started out the novels as evil; actually one of the things that bother me until today is his lack of remorse for that deed (and it really should be triggered, by the fact he's been made a cripple just like he made Bran a cripple, for one).

[King Ned Stark]

2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

I don't get why fanboys try and make Jaime trying to murder an innocent child into a more complex situation than it is. 

Jaime did not try to murder Bran to protect his kids we know he doesn't give a fuck about those kids. Nor did he do it to protect Cersei cause Jaime was more than willing to say "fuck it" and tell the world that him and Cersei have been screwing. 

He tried to kill Bran cause that's what he thought Cersei wanted. 

I agree.  I do not see him as evil, he had some justifications for some of his wrongful deeds, however misplaced those reasons my be.  I thoroughly enjoy his chapters, and don't think the series will have quite the same flare if the Kingslayer were to perish.  Having said that, I still think he should be hanged to show some measure of justice.  I do understand redemption and "redemption arcs", however, for me at least, for true redemption there must be proper atonement.  

He did risk his life for Brienne, but Brienne risked her life for him as well.  Brienne is the antithesis of Cersei, in a way, showing Jaime Cersei's true nature.  Everything Cersei asked of Jaime was for selfish reasons, everything Brienne did for him was selfless, under the orders of her sworn lady, true, but it had an impact on him.

[WSmith84]

10 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Your post is about someone who thinks his actions through and Jaime was obviously not that someone at that time. Presented with the specific situation, he just went for the simplest solution (let's be honest here, any elaborate plan of escaping was way riskier AND would require convincing Cersei to leave her crown and go into an exile). Nothing suggests he tried to kill or killed any other little boys for the same reason on a regular basis (though he probably would if necessary), it's more like there really wasn't anyone to silence for all those years.

And I could maybe buy that Jaime never really thought about the consequences of his actions before Bran. But afterwards, he carries on his relationship with her and he can no longer claim ignorance of the consequences if they are caught again. If another Bran appears, Jaime will have to kill him. Jaime now knows this. He cannot deny it. And yet he chooses to continue with the relationship. He chooses to do so knowing the consequences.

[Tianzi]

4 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

And I could maybe buy that Jaime never really thought about the consequences of his actions before Bran. But afterwards, he carries on his relationship with her and he can no longer claim ignorance of the consequences if they are caught again. If another Bran appears, Jaime will have to kill him. Jaime now knows this. He cannot deny it. And yet he chooses to continue with the relationship. He chooses to do so knowing the consequences.

Well, this is true, and I find his lack of reflection after Bran disturbing. But no other Brans happened after the original Bran, and Cersei got rid of Robert shortly after all that, and Jaime didn't commit any more crimes of the like, so the case can't be made. Also, Cersei was annoyed with Jaime acting so rash with Bran, so the second time he could actually think a moment if this is the thing Cersei wants.

[Makk]

1 Yes he is villainous at the start. Hard to do a redemption story if he isn't. I will just say out of all of your points here, only flinging Bran off the wall was particularly bad. Killing Aerys as we found out later was the morally correct thing to do. His relationship with Cersei was toxic and is yucky by most of our standards, but the only one it was really hurting was Robert, and you could argue that was justified. Also he didn't enjoy throwing Bran out the window, he didn't flinch but he did regret he had to.

2 I believe you completely misunderstand that. He was relieved he didn't find her first so he didn't get put in another situation, like the Bran one, where he had to do something he felt was wrong. 

3 It was hotheaded and over aggressive but it was actually done out of love. Tyrion had been seized and Jaime was pissed. If we saw a similar situation, say the Boltons grabbed Sansa, and Arya killed 3 of them as a warning, plenty of us would probably enjoy that.

4/5 His redemption arc is not complete. He did not suddenly become Baelor the Blessed. He does plan to do his best to protect the Stark girls, he saves Brienne, and he tries to not take up arms against the Starks or Tullys. He does his best to resolve the Riverrun situation in the best possible way for everyone, the fact he does so with a threat is irrelevant.

 

I must disclose, Jaime is one of my favorite characters. I love his manner of speech and thought. I'm not claiming he is a paragon of nobility but he does try to do what he thinks is best for those he loves and is actually quite selfless.
 

[HairGrowsBack]

8 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Well, this is true, and I find his lack of reflection after Bran disturbing. But no other Brans happened after the original Bran, and Cersei got rid of Robert shortly after all that, and Jaime didn't commit any more crimes of the like, so the case can't be made. Also, Cersei was annoyed with Jaime acting so rash with Bran, so the second time he could actually think a moment if this is the thing Cersei wants.

He does mention being ashamed of it, though. Not much, but still some kind of reflection.

As for still sleeping with Cersei, it just showcases how fucked up the relationship is. They've been together literally their whole life, and they have (had) this weird narcissistic obsession with each other. You just don't walk away from that easily. Also, Jaime left to war shortly after the Bran incident, and when they met again they had sex only one last time, so no risk of being caught anyway.

[Ser Leftwich]

The difference here is conflating several concepts and the forum is covered with them. "Popular" and "interesting to read." and "Popular" and "good" (good as in a good guy). All of those absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Calling anyone/everyone who defends Jaime (or anyone) in any way shape or form a "fan-boy" is pointless.

The question to ask is: Are the books better having Jaime's POV?

And the answer is: a resounding YES!

[Boarsbane]

2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Jaime did not fear him or Cersei or their bastards dying to try to kill Bran he's to in love with himself to think that he and the Lannisters would lose a fight against Robert.  

Jaime pushed Bran because he thought that that was what Cersei wanted. He didn't think about his kids or Cersei's safety he never feared for them. He doesn't care if people found out like at all. 

This contradicts what the man who actually wrote the books has said on the subject 

[HairGrowsBack]

Just now, Boarsbane said:

This contradicts what the man who actually wrote the books has said on the subject 

I think you've been on the boards long enough to know  that, for some, this just doesn't cut it.

[Boarsbane]

2 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

I think you've been on the boards long enough to know  that, for some, this just doesn't cut it.

I know but for anyone who hasn't seen us have this same argument a dozen times they can maybe learn something new

[Howland Reed]

People are taking all of this outside of the world that it takes place in.  Yea in real life standards the things he did and/or why he did them are heinous, but the world of ASOIAF is brutal.  People claiming that Jaime pushed Bran out of the window simply bc he thought Cersei wanted it, well that's completely up to interpretation since we have no POV.   As we get to understand him through his POV, you understand the bitterness that has become of his situation of being in the kingsguard as a slight against his father and not for his abilities, then killing his king to save thousands of people from dying, to forever being known as an honorless piece of scum.  There is no doubt he is brash and quick to anger, as in when he kill's neds men, but he does not do it for no reason.  (whether its a good one is another matter)  Jaime is a bitter man, and has in a way had a rough go especially considering the things he does hold in high regard, he looked up to Arthur Dayne as a father.  You see his internal struggle throughout his chapters.   I don't give a shit what people say about the Kingslayer, I love that dirty rat basrtard

[King Ned Stark]

10 minutes ago, Makk said:

1 Yes he is villainous at the start. Hard to do a redemption story if he isn't. I will just say out of all of your points here, only flinging Bran off the wall was particularly bad. Killing Aerys as we found out later was the morally correct thing to do. His relationship with Cersei was toxic and is yucky by most of our standards, but the only one it was really hurting was Robert, and you could argue that was justified. Also he didn't enjoy throwing Bran out the window, he didn't flinch but he did regret he had to.

2 I believe you completely misunderstand that. He was relieved he didn't find her first so he didn't get put in another situation, like the Bran one, where he had to do something he felt was wrong. 

3 It was hotheaded and over aggressive but it was actually done out of love. Tyrion had been seized and Jaime was pissed. If we saw a similar situation, say the Boltons grabbed Sansa, and Arya killed 3 of them as a warning, plenty of us would probably enjoy that.

4/5 His redemption arc is not complete. He did not suddenly become Baelor the Blessed. He does plan to do his best to protect the Stark girls, he saves Brienne, and he tries to not take up arms against the Starks or Tullys. He does his best to resolve the Riverrun situation in the best possible way for everyone, the fact he does so with a threat is irrelevant.

 

I must disclose, Jaime is one of my favorite characters. I love his manner of speech and thought. I'm not claiming he is a paragon of nobility but he does try to do what he thinks is best for those he loves and is actually quite selfless.
 

2. I don't believe I'm misunderstanding at all.  There is a difference in being relieved that you didn't have to commit a horrendous act, and refusing to do said act to begin with.  Tell Cersei no.  How can Jaime be so well-liked, with people finding reasons why he committed a crime to cover high treason, whilst Cersei is so reviled.  If he can not tell her no, then he is no more than the original "Robert Strong", and pathetic to boot.

I fail to see the correlation between witty and interesting to read about, and deserving of redemption and likeability.  

Can you just become a good guy and be redeemed, or must you be held accountable for past transgressions?

[Tianzi]

32 minutes ago, Makk said:

Yes he is villainous at the start. Hard to do a redemption story if he isn't.

This.

[HairGrowsBack]

20 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

I know but for anyone who hasn't seen us have this same argument a dozen times they can maybe learn something new

You're right, better warn them first.

[WSmith84]

15 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Well, this is true, and I find his lack of reflection after Bran disturbing. But no other Brans happened after the original Bran, and Cersei got rid of Robert shortly after all that, and Jaime didn't commit any more crimes of the like, so the case can't be made. Also, Cersei was annoyed with Jaime acting so rash with Bran, so the second time he could actually think a moment if this is the thing Cersei wants.

Sure, but that's circumstance forcing the two of them apart. It's not like Jaime made a decision to end the relationship after Bran, he was forced to.

I should make it clear that I actually really like Jaime. He's one of my favourite characters, but I can't deny he was a real disgrace of a human being at the beginning of the series. Now, he's different, but still. I can't excuse his attempted murder of Bran given the context.

[Ser Leftwich]

4 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

SNIP

I fail to see the correlation between witty and interesting to read about, and deserving of redemption and likeability.  

Can you just become a good guy and be redeemed, or must you be held accountable for past transgressions?

There is 'redeemed' and redeemed. Will Jaime be the knight in shining armor, saving the day and riding off with the princess into the sunset? No. Will he, in the end, not be completely reviled by everyone in Westeros? Probably.

Personally, I think Jaime is a tragic character. Tom Stoppard has a great line about tragedy, that generally holds true for all of ASoIaF: "The bad end unhappily, the good, unluckily. That is what tragedy means."

Also, at the start of the books the only people that at all love/like Jaime are his family: Tywin, Tyrion, and Cersei. He has pretty much lost them all.

As with all other characters, he is caught up in questions of love vs. honor/duty.

[Richard Writhen]

Jaime is the international man of mystery today. He's a criminal, he's going to be king ...

[Nevets]

11 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

4. He swears to Cat that he will not take up arms against Stark or Tully, and with his release will return her daughters (albeit at swordpoint) but on his way to Kingslanding, he understands that Roose means to betray Robb, and gives one of his flippant remarks, thus breaking his oath to Cat (because he had to agree to absolve Roose of blame for hand to Tywin to be freed).  Then upon arrival at KL, he knowingly allows some girl (Jeyne) to be taken by the Boltons knowing full well that it is kidnapping and coercion (this shows his true character, despite his dialogue to Cat and Brienne that you can't follow all the vows, he could follow a very important knights vow right then with minimal to no consequence, but he lets her be taken).

5. Then he DOES take up arms against Stark and Tully by breaking the siege of Riverrun (by threatening to murder women and children, it's poignant to me that the first thing the Blackfish asks is he has he returned to resume his captivity).

He also lied to his little brother and had a child gang-raped to appease his father.  It's almost ironic that he tried to murder one child and maim another of a man who risked his life for Jaime's own children.

In summation, my bias aside, is Jaime a hypocrite and a criminal?

I am leaving out the first three items because even most of his fans admit that these were despicable acts (especially the murder of Ned's men and the attempted murder of Bran).  In order for a character to have a redemption arc, he has to do something for which he needs redemption.  However the remaining items on the list are after he decides to be honorable, so I shall address them.

4.  Knowing that Roose will betray Robb and doing nothing isn't a betrayalof his oath.  He is a Lannister and under no obligation to help Robb.  Just not actively fight against him.  Also, I doubt he knew that the wedding was to be the scene of the betrayal.   But he was in no position to do anything about it even if he had.

Jeyne - All he knows is that she is being sent to marry Ramsay Bolton as Arya and appears to be frightened.  Given that she is 13 and marrying into a family with a bad reputation, being a bit frightened is not surprising.  Jaime has no idea if she is nevertheless a willing participant or not.  (Actually, neither do we.  She might have decided it was the least bad option.)  Not to mention, he can't rescue everybody, especially those to whom he has accepted no duty.

5.  He specifically avoided taking up arms and ended the siege peacefully.  He seems determined to bring peace to the Riverlands, albeit under Lannister rule.  I felt like the Blackfish was being something of a dick, myself.  

At this point, Jaime seems intent on being the knight he always wanted to be.  In addition to bringing peace to the RL, he sent Brienne to find the Stark girls and keep them safe from his own sister, in order to keep his vow to Catelyn.  He is still not necessarily a good guy, but I don't really seem him as villainous anymore.   And definitely not a hypocrite.  He cheerfully admits his failings.

[tugela]

12 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

Many readers seemed to be invested in Jaime's redemption arc, and all in all, he seems to be a very popular character within the SoIaF series.  Very well-liked.  So this topic may very well be controversial, and I may be in the minority here, as I never liked the character from the beginning, or even after multiple re-reads.  However, I will attempt to approach this subject in an unbiased and logical manner.

I'll preface things by saying I care not for his witticisms, his good looks, or his general badassery.  Mainly because I was introduced to the character in 1997 and my oldest child was less than a year old, and immediately in GoT he throws a seven year old boy out of a tower window.  So, admittedly, my opinion was skewed from then on.  As for his so-called redemption, I'm still waiting, so far I've seen nothing remotely close.  I feel his redemption, if in fact there is one, is either; a retcon, poor writing, or complete sleight of hand by the author.

Sorry for the lengthy disclaimer, on to my questions/proclomomations.  I feel, through five books, that Jaime is a criminal of nearly the highest order, by virtually any societies standards, and a hypocrite to boot.  However, let's progress under Westerosi standards.

1. Jaime is introduced as an oathbreaker (killing his king), complicit in high treason, having an incestuous relationship, breaking guestright, and a willful murder of children. Essentially, he defiled the gods, the faith, and the laws of Westeros very early on.

2. I may be wrong on this, but iirc, Jaime thinks to himself that he would've maimed Arya if he'd been the first to find her.  Again, with the children.

3. He has three men murdered, to chasten Ned (by the way, does anyone have a bigger Ned complex than Jaime?).

4. He swears to Cat that he will not take up arms against Stark or Tully, and with his release will return her daughters (albeit at swordpoint) but on his way to Kingslanding, he understands that Roose means to betray Robb, and gives one of his flippant remarks, thus breaking his oath to Cat (because he had to agree to absolve Roose of blame for hand to Tywin to be freed).  Then upon arrival at KL, he knowingly allows some girl (Jeyne) to be taken by the Boltons knowing full well that it is kidnapping and coercion (this shows his true character, despite his dialogue to Cat and Brienne that you can't follow all the vows, he could follow a very important knights vow right then with minimal to no consequence, but he lets her be taken).

5. Then he DOES take up arms against Stark and Tully by breaking the siege of Riverrun (by threatening to murder women and children, it's poignant to me that the first thing the Blackfish asks is he has he returned to resume his captivity).

He also lied to his little brother and had a child gang-raped to appease his father.  It's almost ironic that he tried to murder one child and maim another of a man who risked his life for Jaime's own children.

In summation, my bias aside, is Jaime a hypocrite and a criminal?

 

 

1. Jaime killed the mad king because the mad king was preparing to burn down Kings Landing and everyone in it using a weapon of mass destruction. Death by wildfire apparently was a horrible way to go. Maybe he broke his oath, but actually he was a hero. Having an incestuous relationship does not make someone evil. Him and his sister were not hurting anyone, and in any case it was traditional for the Targaryens to do what they were doing.

2. Remember, Arya was an individual who had (as far as they knew) tried to kill his son. Any parent would be filled with rage under those circumstances. You say that you are a parent. If some other kid tried to kill your child, would you be cool with that?

3. They were fighting, so it was not murder. That was how conflict was handled in that era, so it was not abnormal in any way.

4. He did not take up arms against the Starks or the Tulleys. He could not fulfill his oath to return the girls because they were not available for him to do that. He did however task Brienne to find them. Jeyne was sent to the Boltons, but Jaime did not know what sort of person Ramsey was. At the time Jeyne was being held in one of Littlefingers brothels being trained as a prostitute, so being sent off to marry a potential lord as fake Arya in theory would have been a big improvement on her situation.

5. He did NOT take up arms against the Starks and Tulleys. The Blackfish was not the lord of Riverrun, Edmund was, and he was being held by the Freys. The Freys had been awarded Riverrun by the crown, so the Blackfish's defiance was going to get a whole lot of people killed for nothing. Jaime's actions at Riverun allowed for a bloodless resolution to the situation, and secured Edmunds release, albeit to go into exile in Lannister territory (he was to be given land there). Later on Jaime went to the north and further resolved conflicts between various lords there who were on opposing sides after the war. All in all he was a peacemaker during that phase.

And remember, he was the ONLY person to treat Pretty Pia with respect and give her justice, and that surprised even her.

I think you do not have an accurate idea of how the concept of chivalry in the middle ages really worked. In the context of the world he lived in he acted in a reasonable and honorable manner for the most part. He is actually quite similar in character to Ned, who I am sure you think is an example of an honorable man.