Who would be the better father?

[Winter's Cold]

37 minutes ago, Humble Maester said:

That probably referred to Tarly being willing to have Sam die in a "hunting accident".

Personally I think that if you were able to at least somewhat act and grow up in a way the lord father was happy with then both Tarly and Tywin would be fine, at least they'd supply a much more fruitful environment than Stannis did (and could) to Shireen. I am fairly certain that if Sam had been at the very least adequate with a sword Randyll wouldn't had minded. And well in case of Tyrion I think the father and son ended up in a vicious circle in which their dislike for one another grew over time due to a plethora of events. I think the eventual fallout could had been averted at a fairly late stage too. Also Tywin was much more accepting of Tyrion than Randyll was of Sam, he after all let Tyrion do pretty much what he wished with his coin and his paid men on Tyrion's side (well except for going to Essos).

Tyrion is far more capable than Sam though. He may be undersized but he can lead men into battle unlike Sam. Tyrion was never Tywin's intended heir so he never cared much about Tyrion other than how his actions would affect the Lannister reputation. Sam is Randyll's first born son and heir. He is the one who will have to be entrusted with Horn Hill and maybe even the Reach army after Randyll dies. He is the one who will be expected to lead men into battle using Heartsbane. That's why Randyll tried so hard to mold him into a warrior lord. 

[Humble Maester]

1 minute ago, Winter's Cold said:

Tyrion is far more capable than Sam though. He may be undersized but he can lead men into battle unlike Sam. Tyrion was never Tywin's intended heir so he never cared much about Tyrion other than how his actions would affect the Lannister reputation. Sam is Randyll's first born son and heir. He is the one who will have to be entrusted with Horn Hill and maybe even the Reach army after Randyll dies. He is the one who will be expected to lead men into battle using Heartsbane. That's why Randyll tried so hard to mold him into a warrior lord. 

But before the start of the series I don't think Tyrion had shown much of the qualities he shows later in war and as temporary hand, yet still Tywin was willing to bankroll his tour of Westeros and let him do pretty much whatever he wanted to do. Though I do agree that this was only possible mostly due to benign neglect on Tywin's part, as he had no grand plans for Tyrion.

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

He's willing to murder his son? You mean he is willing to let justice be done for Tyrion murdering Tywin's grandson, the King.

Justice? Really? When have Tywin ever cared about justice. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

29 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Justice? Really? When have Tywin ever cared about justice. 

When his own family is involved.

[Tianzi]

Just now, thelittledragonthatcould said:

When his own family is involved.

Ahem, Tysha, ahem

And justice isn't limited to 'getting back at everyone who insulted your clan'.

1. Stannis is no fun, but he is the most decent man of the three and had I been born a 'freak', he would treat me the best. He would also make me his heir if he didn't have sons.

2. Tarly is a misogynistic bully, but I guess that he mostly leaves his daughters alone and they can have happy childhoods in his household. We didn't see any of his daughters, but it seems they were the best functioning ones.

3. As Tywin's daughter I would be a rich beauty, but I wouldn't want to grow into a Cersei.

If I were a boy...

1. Well, being Tywin's son would be living under a lot of pressure, but had I not been deformed, the perks of being a Lannister seem bigger than the draws.

2. I just hope I wouldn't go bald early as Stannis' son. But most of the Baratheons seem handsome and happy tempered, and Stannis, unlike Robert, would be a father I could respect.

3. As Tarly's son, well, Dickon seems fine, but I have a strong suspicion that it might actually be because he was not a first-born and received less 'grooming the heir' quality time from Randyll. And those death threats if you don't fit... a little much.

 

But since I wouldn't be a boy, I really couldn't go with anyone other than Ned Stark, the Lord of Tarth and maybe Hoster Tully or someone from House Mormont.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

22 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Ahem, Tysha, ahem

Tysha was never considered part of his family. A homeless peasant marrying a prominent noble was never going to be allowed. In Tywin's mind it was an incredibly dumb mistake by his father, but he never considered her part of his or Tyrions family.

22 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

And justice isn't limited to 'getting back at everyone who insulted your clan'.

Tyrion was believed by pretty much everyone to have executed Tywin's grandson.

How was giving him a trial not giving him justice?

 

22 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

1. Stannis is no fun, but he is the most decent man of the three and had I been born a 'freak', he would treat me the best. He would also make me his heir if he didn't have sons.

lol there is not one scene in the entire books with Stannis and Shireen.

Shireen is said to be saddest child in the world by Maester Cressen. Is he a more decent person than Tywin and Randyll, debatable, but I would much rather be a child of theirs than suffer the miserable existence that Shireen has to endure with her miserable, joyless parents and the insane fool they give her as company.

 

22 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

2. Tarly is a misogynistic bully, but I guess that he mostly leaves his daughters alone and they can have happy childhoods in his household. We didn't see any of his daughters, but it seems they were the best functioning ones.

 lol don't be ridiculous. For his time he is as misogynist as the majority of people who all though Brienne was acting silly pretending to be a knight.

That misogynist is the person who stopped Brienne from being raped in the Reach and had she listened to his advice she'd still have her a healthy cheek (and for the third time in the series she was saved from being raped).

22 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

3. As Tywin's daughter I would be a rich beauty, but I wouldn't want to grow into a Cersei.

Why would you necessarily grow into a Cersei? And Cersei is clearly a very different person in AFFC/ADWD to who she was in AGOT. Do you not think she has changed at all in the 15 years she had been married to Robert?

22 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

 

1. Well, being Tywin's son would be living under a lot of pressure, but had I not been deformed, the perks of being a Lannister seem bigger than the draws.

The perks of being deformed as a son of Tywin Lannister are far better than the perks of being deformed for pretty much any other House.

22 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

2. I just hope I wouldn't go bald early as Stannis' son. But most of the Baratheons seem handsome and happy tempered, and Stannis, unlike Robert, would be a father I could respect.

Unless the son turned out like Robert or Renly. Stannis was 13 when Renly was born, with his parents dead and Robert away Stannis should have been the person Renly saw as a surrogate 'father' and yet they had an awful relationship.

Stannis seems disappointed in his lot in life, no son would really want that. Take the story of him and his pet bird, all it took is someone to say there was better birds for him to discard this pet he supposedly loved.

22 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

3. As Tarly's son, well, Dickon seems fine, but I have a strong suspicion that it might actually be because he was not a first-born and received less 'grooming the heir' quality time from Randyll. And those death threats if you don't fit... a little much.

Except we know that to be false.

Finally, after three girls in as many years, Lady Tarly gave her lord husband a second son. From that day, Lord Randyll ignored Sam, devoting all his time to the younger boy, a fierce, robust child more to his liking. Samwell had known several years of sweet peace with his music and his books.

It actually sounds like Randyll was even more hands on with Dickon than he was Sam.

22 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

 

But since I wouldn't be a boy, I really couldn't go with anyone other than Ned Stark, the Lord of Tarth and maybe Hoster Tully or someone from House Mormont.

Hoster Tully who made his daughter have an abortion and marry someone old enough to be her grandfather who was seemingly could have been infertile? That Hoster?

[Tianzi]

18 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Tysha was never considered part of his family. A homeless peasant marrying a prominent noble was never going to be allowed. In Tywin's mind it was an incredibly dumb mistake by his father, but he never considered her part of his or Tyrions family.

I'm saying it was not justice to Tyrion.

18 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Tyrion was believed by pretty much everyone to have executed Tywin's grandson.

How was giving him a trial not giving him justice?

I never said this particular deed wasn't justice, did I?

But while we are at Tyrion's case, how about the 'justice' of not wanting to make him the official heir of Casterly Rock?

20 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

lol there is not one scene in the entire books with Stannis and Shireen.

Shireen is said to be saddest child in the world by Maester Cressen. Is he a more decent person than Tywin and Randyll, debatable, but I would much rather be a child of theirs than suffer the miserable existence that Shireen has to endure with her miserable, joyless parents and the insane fool they give her as company.

I thought that it was fairly clear that 'the best' here is between three no-goods.

23 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 lol don't be ridiculous. For his time he is as misogynist as the majority of people who all though Brienne was acting silly pretending to be a knight.

That misogynist is the person who stopped Brienne from being raped in the Reach and had she listened to his advice she'd still have her a healthy cheek (and for the third time in the series she was saved from being raped).

lol, don't be patronizing.

He is way more bigoted than most of his peers, and granted, he is more devoted to maintaining discipline among his troops, but saying he stopped her for being raped in Reach is laughable, as he merely prevented the situation that might have escalated to a possible rape attempt (and unlike Randyll who severely underestimates Brienne's warrior abilities, my money would be on her, not on the rapist).

As for her cheek, so what? Warriors get scars, that how it goes. She is not the only one to receive an injury and not the worst one in the series.

Plus, given how many non-warrior women get raped and cannot defend themselves, Brienne's training, if not lifestyle, has proven useful in this department.

29 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Why would you necessarily grow into a Cersei? And Cersei is clearly a very different person in AFFC/ADWD to who she was in AGOT. Do you not think she has changed at all in the 15 years she had been married to Robert?

Cersei rolled down the sanity slope quickly, indeed, but I do blame Tywin for some aspects of her personality. And she lives under his iron thumb even when she is a grown woman and the queen, as he still thinks he can just marry her off without her consent.

31 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

The perks of being deformed as a son of Tywin Lannister are far better than the perks of being deformed for pretty much any other House.

Tyrion benefitted from being a noble, and from being a Lannister, but not necessarily from being a son of Tywin specifically. He could be much better as Kevan's son, not to look too far.

33 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Unless the son turned out like Robert or Renly. Stannis was 13 when Renly was born, with his parents dead and Robert away Stannis should have been the person Renly saw as a surrogate 'father' and yet they had an awful relationship.

Stannis seems disappointed in his lot in life, no son would really want that. Take the story of him and his pet bird, all it took is someone to say there was better birds for him to discard this pet he supposedly loved.

And yet Renly has grown cheerful and happy, spoiled even. Of course, Stannis wasn't really his role model, and he does have an unpleasant personality, but I just don't think that would beat down a typical Baratheon specimen, had he sired one as a heir. Not to mention, he would probably be a lot happier and satisfied with his life, if he had a healthy son.

36 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Except we know that to be false.

Finally, after three girls in as many years, Lady Tarly gave her lord husband a second son. From that day, Lord Randyll ignored Sam, devoting all his time to the younger boy, a fierce, robust child more to his liking. Samwell had known several years of sweet peace with his music and his books.

It actually sounds like Randyll was even more hands on with Dickon than he was Sam.

OK, my mistake.

Still, any sane parent would send his bookish son to the Citadel, where he would be as free of him as a heir as after sending him to the Wall.

37 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Hoster Tully who made his daughter have an abortion and marry someone old enough to be her grandfather who was seemingly could have been infertile? That Hoster?

Oh right, I looked at that one from Cat's POV, not Lysa.

Then again, in this society I don't see too many fathers who would treat well a daughter like that.

Btw, I forgot about Doran, he made some mistakes, but seems to be among the best candidates to a girl's father as well.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

I'm saying it was not justice to Tyrion.

No one claimed it was. What I did say was that Tywin took that marriage as seriously as had Tyrion married a goat. He would not have accepted Tyrion marrying a goat either.

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

I never said this particular deed wasn't justice, did I?

Did you not? You replied to that quote about Joffrey. Maybe next time be a little more clear about what you are replying to.

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

But while we are at Tyrion's case, how about the 'justice' of not wanting to make him the official heir of Casterly Rock?

He wanted Jaime, his oldest son.

"I want Casterly Rock."

His father's mouth grew hard. "Your brother's birthright?"

 

----------------------------------------

"You are not your father. And Tywin always regarded Jaime as his rightful heir."

"Jaime . . . Jaime has taken vows."

 

Tywin never publicly disinherited Tyrion, never named another heir he always intended that justice be served and that Jaime would inherit the Rock.

 

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

I thought that it was fairly clear that 'the best' here is between three no-goods.

The best is for what you would want. Jaime and Cersei seemingly have no complaints about their childhood, Sam's four siblings seem happy while Shireen is described as the saddest child Cressen had ever known.

Now while Sam has a rough period in his own words he alos had several years of happiness while Tyrion pretty much got a lot of freedom to do what he wanted.

Shireen has it worst.

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

lol, don't be patronizing.

I wasn't being patronizing, I genuinely am amused when people bring up misogyny in a horrendously misogynistic world.

Ned is one of the better people in the series but he betroths Sansa without discussing it with her, breaks it off despite Sansa's then pleads of how she loves him and tells Arya how she can't be the person she wants to be but maybe her sons can:

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

Also consider that Brienne is still a young noble woman (a teenager at the start of the series). Tarly is taking responsibility for someone who is clearly out of their depth. Most nobles would not allow their sons to do what Brienne is doing, travelling around a warzone with no guards.

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

He is way more bigoted than most of his peers

We really don't know that. Most of the nobles see her as something of a joke, the difference is that Tarly tried to help a noble lady who was only a few years older than his own daughters.

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

As for her cheek, so what? Warriors get scars, that how it goes. She is not the only one to receive an injury and not the worst one in the series.

Randyll saved her from being raped in the Reach.  Jaime saved her from being raped and possibly killed in Harrenhal and finally Gendry saved her from being raped and killed at the Inn.

She continually has to be saved in the series as she is constantly in danger.  From the POV of a Westerosi citizen what she is doing is incredibly dumb and naive.

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

Plus, given how many non-warrior women get raped and cannot defend themselves, Brienne's training, if not lifestyle, has proven useful in this department.

Not really.

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

Cersei rolled down the sanity slope quickly, indeed, but I do blame Tywin for some aspects of her personality.

She is a grown woman in her 30's. Not everything can still be blamed on daddy.

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

 

And she lives under his iron thumb even when she is a grown woman

No she does not. Tywin lives almost a thousand miles away, her father had little real control of her when she was with Robert.

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

 

and the queen, as he still thinks he can just marry her off without her consent.

Do you really not understand why? Cuckolding the King had forfeit not only her life but her children's lives as well. Tywin was trying to distance such rumours that if enough people believed would mean the execution of the twins and their children as well as the thousands of deaths of the people of the Westerlands who would have had to fight for her idiocy.

"And a new marriage would put to rest this talk of incest for good and all."

"So long as you remain unwed, you allow Stannis to spread his disgusting slander," Lord Tywin told his daughter. "You must have a new husband in your bed, to father children on you."

 

Now I'm sorry, but she has no one but herself to blame for this. Had she not been fucking her brother for the last 15 years she would never have been asked to pick another husband against her wishes.

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

Tyrion benefitted from being a noble, and from being a Lannister, but not necessarily from being a son of Tywin specifically. He could be much better as Kevan's son, not to look too far.

He benefited in that no one ever mocked him to his face. And look at how easily Tyrion threatened Lancel's life, clearly it as better to be the son of Tywin than Kevan.

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

And yet Renly has grown cheerful and happy, spoiled even. Of course, Stannis wasn't really his role model, and he does have an unpleasant personality, but I just don't think that would beat down a typical Baratheon specimen, had he sired one as a heir. Not to mention, he would probably be a lot happier and satisfied with his life, if he had a healthy son.

Just as Tywin would be happier if Tyrion was born healthy or Randyll if Sam was not lacking in will power. All would be better 'fathers'.

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

 

Still, any sane parent would send his bookish son to the Citadel, where he would be as free of him as a heir as after sending him to the Wall.

But he wouldn't. Going to the Citadel does not strip you of your inheritance, only after you become a Maester are you then exempt from the succession line.

Considering that Sam fainted over chickens being killed and fainted over blood it seems very, very unlikely that he would ever become a Maester.

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

Oh right, I looked at that one from Cat's POV, not Lysa.

Even Cat had no choice in the matter, she was doing her duty to her father who wanted to marry his daughters to important Lords. Bradon himself seems very similar in character to Robert.

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

Then again, in this society I don't see too many fathers who would treat well a daughter like that.

A daughter like what?

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

Btw, I forgot about Doran, he made some mistakes, but seems to be among the best candidates to a girl's father as well.

lol are you kidding?

"'One day you will sit where I sit and rule all Dorne,' you wrote him. Tell me, Father, when did you decide to disinherit me? Was it the day that Quentyn was born, or the day that I was born? What did I ever do to make you hate me so?" To her fury, there were tears in her eyes."

Their relationship is so estranged that she was ready to overthrow him and he in retaliation jailed her.

Doran is no better than his peers when it comes to fatherhood. Oberyn murdered Lord Yronwood and Doran sent his oldest son as a hostage and then sent him on a pointless mission with a handful of men. Even Tyrstane is not spared as he is betrothed to a Lannister while Doran plans on murdering the rest of them.

[kimim]

To answer the op, Stannis, no contest. Shireen's childhood was not ideal, but at least he never threatened to murder her, and he never tortured her. Compare that to Tarly with Sam and Tywin with Tyrion.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Stannis isn't a bad father. He is the typical cold Medieval father but not an abusive one. So Stannis.

[Kytheros]

19 hours ago, Euron's Mom said:

Tywin is the worst of the three.  He has absolutely no respect for his daughter as a person: first he sold her off to Robert, then later he was going to do the same to the Tyrells.  He does not view her as a person but rather currency he can use to gain an advantage for himself.

Sam's sisters seem to be perfectly happy from his stories, but we don't know if any have reached the age to be married off, and if so what happened to them.  Sam got the ill treatment from his father because he wanted to live the plush life with his sisters, and to Randyll, while this was good enough for girls, it was a big no-no for a son.

George Martin apparently told Benioff and Weiss that Stannis "would" burn Shireen.  It doesn't mean he will, but he definitely would be willing to.  It seems unfair to judge someone for something they haven't actually done, but I'm still going to hold that against him here.  Plus if you're taking Stannis as a father, does that mean you have to take Selyse as your mother?  Skip the fanatics for me please.

Based on what we know, I would go with Randyll Tarly.  Not necessarily because he'd be great, but the other two are definitely bad news.

I'm not entirely sure I believe that GRRM told Benioff and Weiss that Stannis would burn Shireen. I could believe that GRRM said that Shireen would be burned for Stannis/in his name, but I don't think it would be at his order/direction. Plus, Stannis is marching on Winterfell, Shireen, Selyse, and Melisandre are all at Castle Black. I could see Selyse and/or Melisandre burning Shireen, though. Everything in the books about Stannis says that he'd do pretty much anything for Shireen.

 

Tywin Lannister, Randall Tarly, or Stannis Baratheon?

Stannis, without question. He may not be the perfect father, but from the books, he's clearly the best of the three.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

I'm not entirely sure I believe that GRRM told Benioff and Weiss that Stannis would burn Shireen. I could believe that GRRM said that Shireen would be burned for Stannis/in his name, but I don't think it would be at his order/direction. Plus, Stannis is marching on Winterfell, Shireen, Selyse, and Melisandre are all at Castle Black. I could see Selyse and/or Melisandre burning Shireen, though. Everything in the books about Stannis says that he'd do pretty much anything for Shireen.

 

Those are tvseries spoilers and they don't belong here.

[The Wolves]

4 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

When his own family is involved.

That's not okay. 

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

17 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Puh-lease. He cares little about her safety or happiness, he cares about his status.

The knight hesitated. "Your Grace, if you are dead — "

" — you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt."

 

Not get her to safety but die in some attempt to fulfill my vanity of me and mine getting the Crown. Little to do with sacrificing her for the greater good.

 

Stannis could not care much for anything besides duty, but little care is always more than Tarly or Tywin

If the "show burning" means that his "show" efforts to keep her alive from greyscale are also george's idea... those are some efforts, when you have plenty of time to have an heir, with Selyse or another wife

[redtree]

Stannis, if Shireen were Randyl's child i don't think she'd be alive. Tywin is pretty much a sadistic pageant dad and he'd see no profit from Shireen, it's harder to be imperfect for a girl compared to a boy i think, he'd probably put her in silent sister program or the Faith

[Unbent_Unbroken]

Of these three, Stannis, no question. I'd rather have a distant father than an actively abusive one. If I could pick a dad though, I'd pick Lord Tarth.

[PrinceIanMartell]

Stannis is the obvious choice. At his worst, he just wasn't there all that much. Personally, I like the idea of living on Dragonstone, so I'll take him. Wouldn't be too happy about Selyse, but the Randyll isn't worth the exchange in mothers.

Tywin is interesting, but his demanding control over his children's fates and the loyalty to the family name rather than his actual children would not be easy. Sure, I'd be rich, but that doesn't mean too much when you're the child of a lord regardless, right?

[Paxter Redwyne]

Tywin wasn't best father even for jaime and cersei. He considered all his children only as tools for his own ambitions.

[Knight of the Red Tree]

Lord Tarly ain't the sharpest tool on the shed.

"OK, time to man up my meek son"

*Throws him in the river*

[Knight of the Red Tree]

I think the first and foresmost step to manhood is for a boy to admire his father, so he'll want to be just like him - A man.

If you make your son dread your very sight, he's bound to become a pussy.

I believe that Samwell might not have been such a born-weakling to begin with. Randyll made him so traumatized he turned him into an wuss.

There have been real world examples of warriors who were very meek in childhood but grew up just fine. I'm positive none of them were raised by men like Tarly.