Cersie/Tommen

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

The people around Tommen will want to keep him on the throne because he is a complete pansy and a pushover.  

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Someone remind me what Qyburn was looking into for Cersei.  Was it wildfire stores?

[Drogo_1]

Why do the Lannister's have such big beds?

 

Spoiler

They push to twins together to make a king.

 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

6 minutes ago, Drogo_1 said:

Why do the Lannister's have such big beds?

 

  Hide contents

They push to twins together to make a king.

 

* golf clap*

[Phonzadellika]

1 hour ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

In a lot of ways, Cersei is actually a deterrent from the house's continuation. She screwed up Kevan's house by twisting Lancel, she's preventing Tywin's house from continuing because of her affairs with Jaime, and her last child is technically a Baratheon. Kevan, very understandably, could see Cersei's death or removal from power as the house's only real chance at continuing with prestige. She's already disgraced them via the walk of atonement and her list of stupid mistakes is incredibly long. Olenna didn't even want to bother with her anymore.

And you're acting like Kevan is empowering the faith. They already were empowered because of Cersei and pre-Kevan Tommen didn't seem interested in fighting them. They also have the backing of the small folk. I'm not sure what Kevan's alternative as an advisor would be. Start a civil war over a family member that has disgraced your house and represents a road block to its survival?

The two great houses are on the brink of collapse because of Cersei. Kevan is basically diplomatically trying to undo the knot that she created.

I really like your perspective on this...but even if Kevan believes that a dead Cersei is better for the realm he still has to believe that it's best to ensure that Tommen stays in power. 

I could see Kevan, maybe, agreeing to removing trial by combat if the faith had agreed to try Cersei on regicide and treason only. In that case Tommen is protected. Other than that it's crazy to think they'd leave the outcome of the throne to faith. Kevan showed no qualms about having the Tyrell army occupy the city on behalf of Margery and doesn't love the faith because of Lancel. 

And while it's fair to speculate that the HS has a lot to lose if Tommen loses the throne we don't really know what they'd do. The HS might just take Tommen out for zealot reasons. Who's next in line for the throne if Tommen is out? Some distant Baratheon cousin? Maybe the HS would have even more control.

[SerMixalot]

6 minutes ago, Phonzadellika said:

I really like your perspective on this...but even if Kevan believes that a dead Cersei is better for the realm he still has to believe that it's best to ensure that Tommen stays in power. 

I could see Kevan, maybe, agreeing to removing trial by combat if the faith had agreed to try Cersei on regicide and treason only. In that case Tommen is protected. Other than that it's crazy to think they'd leave the outcome of the throne to faith. Kevan showed no qualms about having the Tyrell army occupy the city on behalf of Margery and doesn't love the faith because of Lancel. 

And while it's fair to speculate that the HS has a lot to lose if Tommen loses the throne we don't really know what they'd do. The HS might just take Tommen out for zealot reasons. Who's next in line for the throne if Tommen is out? Some distant Baratheon cousin? Maybe the HS would have even more control.

Though it would be nice if they seeded exactly what Cersei's crimes were other than the twincest, which is the only crime they have mentioned in show to date

[Rumy Stark]

4 hours ago, Phonzadellika said:

I really didn't care for the last episode...it didn't make a lot of sense and this is the move that made the least amount of sense.

 

I'm supposed to believe that Tommen is really going to put his mom in a situation where she is certain to lose her trial for incest, treason and regicide from which the by-product would be his own illegitimatization which would lead to a dissolution of his marriage to Margery, creating the ultimate effect of him not being able to plow his hot wife anymore, which seems to be pretty much the only thing he cares about?

There is no evidence to suggest that the HS knows about the incest or Tommen's true parentage. There was even a big moment about that with Jaime at the beginning of the season because Jaime seemed really confused about why he wasn't being arrested, too. We know she was accused of being unfaithful (Lancel) and regicide (Lancel). 

3 hours ago, dbunting said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but she isn't on trial for having sex with Jaime. She is on trial for having sex with Lancel, after she had her children, therefor Tommen would not be declared a bastard. Lancel is the only evidence they have of it. Yes the rumors are there about Jaime but there is no proof.

So yes, exactly. 

2 hours ago, SerMixalot said:

No doubt about all you said, BUT, Tommen's kingship rests SOLELY on his supposed legitimacy as a Baratheon heir.  The results of Cersei's trial, while however satisfying to Kevan and Margery and Tommen etal, will likely wind up with Cersei being found guilty-thus going from Trial by Combat to Trial by the Faith.  Cersei being found guilty makes Tommen ILLEGITIMATE, making Kevan and Pycelle and even the HS and Margery no longer legitimate rulers. 

So again (and I might be wrong so correct me if I am), but we don't know that anyone knows about incest or Tommen's true parentage, which is what makes the situation really interesting, honestly. Because Cersei is in danger, yes, but if the trial is successful and it comes out that she and Jaime had a lot of twincest and Tommen is a product of it, everything implodes for literally everyone. But the only people who are thinking about that are Jaime and Cersei, because Lancel didn't know and Lancel is the source for all of the Faith's accusations against Cersei. 

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

I thought regicide was mentioned as one of her charges? I was finishing the books while Season5 was  going on so I might've just gotten things a bit confused.

I agree that Kevan has no love for the Sparrows but with Tommen and Marg already aligned with them, he's stuck in a tough spot. He might not trust them, but he obviously can't just tell Tommen to dispose of them.

Disposing of Cersei while keeping the faith at bay could be calculated to be the lesser risk.

[Nimm]

27 minutes ago, Rumy Stark said:

So again (and I might be wrong so correct me if I am), but we don't know that anyone knows about incest or Tommen's true parentage, which is what makes the situation really interesting, honestly. Because Cersei is in danger, yes, but if the trial is successful and it comes out that she and Jaime had a lot of twincest and Tommen is a product of it, everything implodes for literally everyone. But the only people who are thinking about that are Jaime and Cersei, because Lancel didn't know and Lancel is the source for all of the Faith's accusations against Cersei. 

Lancel isn't the only source.  From the Mother's Mercy script:

Quote

SPARROW: There are those who say your children were not fathered by King Robert. That they are bastards born of incest and adultery.
CERSEI: A lie. A lie from the lips of Stannis Baratheon. He wants the Throne, but his brother’s children stand in his way, so he claims they are not his brothers’. The filth. There is not one shred of truth to it. I deny it.
SPARROW: Good. But these are terrible charges. And the realm must know the truth of them. If Your Grace has given honest testimony, your trial will prove your innocence.
CERSEI: Trial? I have confessed?
SPARROW: To a single sin. Others you have denied. Your trial will separate the truths from the falsehoods.

She confessed to adultery with Lancel, but denied the incest and murder accusations.

The incest accusation will be difficult to prove without a confession though...maybe the outcome of the trial is conviction for Robert's murder, based as it is on Lancel's own confession.  But she gets acquitted of the incest charge for lack of proof, letting Tommen keep his legitimacy.  Seems like a win-win for the Faith.

[Rumy Stark]

1 hour ago, Nimm said:

Lancel isn't the only source.  From the Mother's Mercy script:

She confessed to adultery with Lancel, but denied the incest and murder accusations.

The incest accusation will be difficult to prove without a confession though...maybe the outcome of the trial is conviction for Robert's murder, based as it is on Lancel's own confession.  But she gets acquitted of the incest charge for lack of proof, letting Tommen keep his legitimacy.  Seems like a win-win for the Faith.

Ah thank you for pointing this out! I had totally forgotten about this scene! 

[rob_stark]

I wonder why Lancel Lannister is not being punished for sleeping with Cersei  and also in trial for his involvement in King Roberts death?

[SerMixalot]

9 hours ago, Rumy Stark said:

There is no evidence to suggest that the HS knows about the incest or Tommen's true parentage. There was even a big moment about that with Jaime at the beginning of the season because Jaime seemed really confused about why he wasn't being arrested, too. We know she was accused of being unfaithful (Lancel) and regicide (Lancel). 

So yes, exactly. 

So again (and I might be wrong so correct me if I am), but we don't know that anyone knows about incest or Tommen's true parentage, which is what makes the situation really interesting, honestly. Because Cersei is in danger, yes, but if the trial is successful and it comes out that she and Jaime had a lot of twincest and Tommen is a product of it, everything implodes for literally everyone. But the only people who are thinking about that are Jaime and Cersei, because Lancel didn't know and Lancel is the source for all of the Faith's accusations against Cersei. 

Cersei's crimes were discussed between Cersei and the HS in Season 5 Episode 10, when she did her confession pre-WoS.  She confessed to Lancel, the HS asked about other sins (including the rumors of the Twincest) She said Stannis was a pretender using the Twincest to take the throne. the HS responded (essentially) good, then the truth will come out at your trial, they didn't discuss any other "sins".  So yes, In show, the Twincest is an issue

[SerMixalot]

5 minutes ago, rob_stark said:

I wonder why Lancel Lannister is not being punished for sleeping with Cersei  and also in trial for his involvement in King Roberts death?

I;m wondering why Loras is still being held by the HS, didn't Margery work out a deal for him?

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

8 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

I;m wondering why Loras is still being held by the HS, didn't Margery work out a deal for him?

I think her deal was for only herself (Tommen[1] for Margery[1]). She needed a bit of freedom to work on getting Lancel out.

Lancel clearly atoned plus other ish we don't know about. He gave up his family and joined the militant. 

[Tianzi]

Lancel became HS' smug, useful little shit who helped with handing a bigger fish over. I'm pretty sure that counts as atonement in the Faith militant world.

[Rhaegar Frey]

18 hours ago, dbunting said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but she isn't on trial for having sex with Jaime. She is on trial for having sex with Lancel, after she had her children, therefor Tommen would not be declared a bastard. Lancel is the only evidence they have of it. Yes the rumors are there about Jaime but there is no proof.

She confessed sleeping with lancel and made the walk through the city as penance. The other charges against her: killing king robert, her children born of incest. Cersei denied these accusations and therefore it is to be a trial.

[SeanF]

16 hours ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Someone remind me what Qyburn was looking into for Cersei.  Was it wildfire stores?

I believe so.  I think Cersei has decided to take her enemies with her.

[watcher of the night]

14 hours ago, Nimm said:

Lancel isn't the only source.  From the Mother's Mercy script:

She confessed to adultery with Lancel, but denied the incest and murder accusations.

The incest accusation will be difficult to prove without a confession though...maybe the outcome of the trial is conviction for Robert's murder, based as it is on Lancel's own confession.  But she gets acquitted of the incest charge for lack of proof, letting Tommen keep his legitimacy.  Seems like a win-win for the Faith.

I agree that this outcome is the most suitable for the HS, so this is the goal they are aiming for. I have just a feeling that something will go wrong ...

[Masha]

6 hours ago, watcher of the night said:

I agree that this outcome is the most suitable for the HS, so this is the goal they are aiming for. I have just a feeling that something will go wrong ...

That wrong part would be final Cersei (and Qiuborn) surprise

[Lord Lannister]

I felt sorry for Tommen up until this episode. Just a few episodes ago he's crying and swearing he'll never let his mother be hurt again and now he's all but condemned her into a scenario where she's certain to fail. What the hell is in the High Sparrow's koolaid?