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House Beaudreau

Edric Dayne, Why aren't we talking about him?

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Edric Dayne is Lord of Starfall, a Major house of Dorne who happens to be riding with the Brotherhood without Banners and gives Arya some big time testimony in Storm of Swords about Jon snow. 

What I'm getting at is, 1. why do most of the R+L=J theories disregard everything he says to Arya about Jon real mother being Wylla. 2. if the known story was that Ned killed ser Arthur Dayne why would his family call him or allow him to go by Ned. the Daynes must see Ned Stark in some sort of positive light, Why? What did he do for the Daynes besides return the sword Dawn? 

If Wylla is not Jon snow's mother who did she give birth to? and if Jon was in Starfall because Ned brought him there after the tower of Joy, it would have been a short stay, not long enough for anyone to consider Jon and Edric milk brothers. Why would the people of Starfall tell Edric that Wylla is Jon Snows mother? Why tell Edric about Jon at all?   

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It could be that Wylla travelled North with Jon as his wetnurse before returning South. That would be more than enough to feed the rumours.

It seems that Dayne's don't hate Eddard Stark, maybe they never were much fans of Arthur joining the KG and see his death just as a result of his folly. Not to mention that there are not so many adult Dayne's anyway. Actually from the Starfall Dayne's Allyria is almost surely the oldest one alive and she is very likely younger that eighteen.

Why we disregard Wylla... if nothing else does Eddard Stark seems as a man who breaks heart of one woman to the point she commit suicide, fathers a child on the second woman and marries the third? Hell no, is my answer.

As to Wylla's children, there might have been some, they would not be worth mentioning.

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3 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

why do most of the R+L=J theories disregard everything he says to Arya about Jon real mother being Wylla.

I don't have the quotes next to me, but if I remember correctly Edric only tells Arya that Wylla was Jon's milk mother. He never says that Wylla is Jon's real mother, it's only Arya who jumps to that conclusion and she notes that she's going to tell Jon when they reunite.

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30 minutes ago, GhostNymeria said:

I don't have the quotes next to me, but if I remember correctly Edric only tells Arya that Wylla was Jon's milk mother. He never says that Wylla is Jon's real mother, it's only Arya who jumps to that conclusion and she notes that she's going to tell Jon when they reunite.

He does in fact say that she's Jon's mother.

Quote

 “He’s with the Night’s Watch on the Wall.” Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn’t care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair... “Jon looks like me, even though he’s bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me ‘little sister. “‘ Arya missed Jon most of all. just saying his name made her sad. “How do you know about Jon?”
“He is my milk brother.”
“Brother?” Arya did not understand. “But you’re from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?”
“Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me.”
Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”
“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”
“Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name.” Arya gave Ned a wary look. “You know her? Truly?” Is he making mock of me? “if you lie I’ll punch your face.”
“Wylla was my wetnurse,” he repeated solemnly. “I swear it on the honor of my House.”
“You have a House?” That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had a House. “Who are you?”
“My lady?” Ned looked embarrassed. “I’m Edric Dayne, the... the Lord of Starfall.” 

 

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Wylla, Lya (Ned calls Lyanna Lya), Allyria....all these names sound the same...it's driving me crazy, but could there be a connection between all three?

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1 hour ago, Michael Mertyns said:

He does in fact say that she's Jon's mother.

 

You're right. My interpertation of this then is that the Daynes, Ned and Wylla made some sort of deal in order to protect Jon's identity (assuming R+L=J). Wylla was probably Lyanna's wetnurse when she gave birth. I mean, she couldn't have been alone giving birth. Why would Rhaegar or the three kingsguard risk that? It's not unlikely that Wylla served the Daynes at Starfall, and when a pregnant Lyanna and co settled in the tower, Arthur sent for her or went to get her.

I think it's pretty likely that the Daynes know about Jon, and there's a possibility that Arthur or Ashara is alive somewhere. Whether Edric knows about Jon's parentage is hard to tell, but the "Jon Snow's mother. He never told you?" makes me think that he's been told that the official story is supposed to be that Wylla is Jon's mother, and assumed Ned made Jon believe this. I mean, it's a little wierd that Ned refused to talk about Jon's mother's identity for 15 years when Edric just blurt it out for anyone to hear. Maybe Edric thought that this was told to Arya and the people at Winterfell.

And why I think Ned didn't spread the Wylla cover up story like Edric and the Daynes maybe assumed he had, is because Ned probably didn't want to lie to Jon about his mother, as he was planning on telling him when he was mature enough, so he kept quiet instead. Wylla (and Ashara) as Jon's mother was a rumour at Winterfell, and instead of anouncing to everyone that Wylla was the mother, Ned probably tough it wasn't needed because of the Wylla rumour and decided to keep quiet and let the rumour continue (not the Ashara rumour tough). That way he didn't have to give Jon false information.

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5 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

2. if the known story was that Ned killed ser Arthur Dayne why would his family call him or allow him to go by Ned. the Daynes must see Ned Stark in some sort of positive light, Why? What did he do for the Daynes besides return the sword Dawn? 

I always thought this was strange too. Ned Dayne's story to Arya indicates the Dayne story is that Ned Stark killed Arthur Dayne and was possibly responsible for Ashara's suicide (it's implied). Yet NedD seems to have positive feeling toward Ned Stark and his daughter Arya. His nickname might have even been patterned on Ned Stark.

Two options: 1) It's a romantic legend and Edric is intrigued by it, hence his interest in Arya and the Starks. Sort of like Renly trying to get Ned to say Margaery and Lyanna look alike, because he apparently wants to repeat Robert's legend of usurping the throne for love. Assuming here that the Daynes think Arthur died in a fair duel, no hard feelings, and Ashara was in love so even if Ned didn't reciprocate it's not his fault. 

2) The older Daynes actually know something about Ashara's real story and maybe Jon's birth, hence no hard feelings. People have thrown around a million possibilities, such as Ashara is really alive and is Septa Lemore, etc etc. They're acting almost like Howland Reed, keeping Ned's secret. 

I lean more toward 1), but 2) makes sense too.

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5 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

Edric Dayne is Lord of Starfall, a Major house of Dorne who happens to be riding with the Brotherhood without Banners and gives Arya some big time testimony in Storm of Swords about Jon snow. 

What I'm getting at is, 1. why do most of the R+L=J theories disregard everything he says to Arya about Jon real mother being Wylla.

Because Edric is twelve, i.e. his is not first-hand knowledge. He wasn't even born at that time.

 

5 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

2. if the known story was that Ned killed ser Arthur Dayne why would his family call him or allow him to go by Ned. the Daynes must see Ned Stark in some sort of positive light, Why? What did he do for the Daynes besides return the sword Dawn? 

Ned is a universal nick for all Ed- names, that's one thing. Returning such a precious family heirloom is a huge thing (can you see Tywin doing the same?) Also, Ned may have been willing to cover up for his brother Brandon, if Brandon was indeed the one who dishonored Ashara. Lots of potential scenarios.

5 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

If Wylla is not Jon snow's mother who did she give birth to?

 

Is this important? Women give birth all the time. Her baby may have died.

5 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

and if Jon was in Starfall because Ned brought him there after the tower of Joy, it would have been a short stay, not long enough for anyone to consider Jon and Edric milk brothers.

Milk brothers means that they were nursed by the same woman, not at the same time.

 

5 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

Why would the people of Starfall tell Edric that Wylla is Jon Snows mother? 

Because that's most likely what they were told when Ned Stark turned up with Wylla and the baby in tow.

5 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

Why tell Edric about Jon at all?   

Because people like to gossip. Ned Stark had a thing for Ashara, who committed suicide, and knocked up that woman over there.... a nice piece of gossip.

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It is important to remember Ned Dayne wasn't born and only has second hand knowledge, and that I believe much of it has come from Allyria who it also seems likely is quite young, too young to have been aware of the goings on in 282. (Infact many believe she is Brandon & Ashara's daughter whom Barristan believes was stillborn.)

The tale is unlikely due to the nature of it painting Ned Stark as a cad. 

I think the Dayne's named Ned Dayne for Ned Stark to honour him having not only returned Dawn but my own personal theory is he also returned Gerold Dayne, who would have been around 12 himself and I think was likely a squire at the ToJ. It bugged me for years that House Dayne named their heir Ned. I too felt the returning of a sword not enough to warrant such honour.  But when I pieced together the idea Darkstar was in fact at the ToJ, and at last it made sense that they'd honour Ned for his act of mercy in sparing the boy and for returning Dawn. 

Wylla too was allowed to nurse Jon, and she was/is and employee of House Dayne. They gave permission for her to help Eddard. Which again speaks of a family not holding Arthur's death against the man. If there was a person to vouch for Ned's behaviour and the circumstances of Arthur's death it makes more sense that they allowed him her services. 

 

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1 hour ago, GhostNymeria said:

And why I think Ned didn't spread the Wylla cover up story like Edric and the Daynes maybe assumed he had, is because Ned probably didn't want to lie to Jon about his mother, as he was planning on telling him when he was mature enough, so he kept quiet instead. Wylla (and Ashara) as Jon's mother was a rumour at Winterfell, and instead of anouncing to everyone that Wylla was the mother, Ned probably tough it wasn't needed because of the Wylla rumour and decided to keep quiet and let the rumour continue (not the Ashara rumour tough). That way he didn't have to give Jon false information.

The first time he hear of Wylla is when Robert and Ned are talking on their ride from the kingsroad. Robert brings up the story, and Ned supplies the name "Wylla" but refuses to give any more information.

He probably didn't want to dive too deep into the lie but found it useful when necessary.

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As Edric says they are "milk brothers" does this put them a few months maybe at most a year and a half apart? Were they nursed at the same time? Or is Edric Arya's age and just sucked on the same test. Surely they had to have been nursed at the exact same time for them to be milk brothers right? 

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19 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

As Edric says they are "milk brothers" does this put them a few months maybe at most a year and a half apart? Were they nursed at the same time? Or is Edric Arya's age and just sucked on the same test. Surely they had to have been nursed at the exact same time for them to be milk brothers right? 

No, they are several years apart in age and won't have been nursed together. Wylla was wet nurse to Jon, then several years later was wet nurse to Ned. Wet nurses maintain Lactation over their entire career, a woman can continually lactate for decades if she has a constant supply of children to stimulate her supply and indeed professional wet nurses would stay in the career usually until menopause put an end to it. 

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27 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

As Edric says they are "milk brothers" does this put them a few months maybe at most a year and a half apart? Were they nursed at the same time? Or is Edric Arya's age and just sucked on the same test. Surely they had to have been nursed at the exact same time for them to be milk brothers right? 

Edric Dayne, according to himself, was twelve in 299. That means that when he was born, Jon had been in Winterfell for two-three years.

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Edric isn't really discussed because we have very little to go on, and any explanation for his name is pure conjecture. George has revealed just enough about the Daynes to let us know that they're important, but not nearly enough for us to put together a convincing theory about why. Was Edric really named after Ned? Why? How did Ned and Howland defeat Arthur? Or did they? Did Ashara really jump from the tower? Which Stark "dishonored" her? Did she get pregnant at Harrenhal with the stillborn baby that Barristan remembers? Was the baby really stillborn? Why does Barristan think Dany has Ashara's eyes? Who is the current Sword of the Morning? Why is Gerold Dayne "the most dangerous man in Dorne"?

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9 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

If the known story was that Ned killed ser Arthur Dayne why would his family call him or allow him to go by Ned. the Daynes must see Ned Stark in some sort of positive light, Why? What did he do for the Daynes besides return the sword Dawn? 

If Wylla is not Jon snow's mother who did she give birth to? and if Jon was in Starfall because Ned brought him there after the tower of Joy, it would have been a short stay, not long enough for anyone to consider Jon and Edric milk brothers. Why would the people of Starfall tell Edric that Wylla is Jon Snows mother? Why tell Edric about Jon at all?   

As to Eddard and Arthur fighting to Arthur's death, and the Daynes apparently not holding a grudge, returning Dawn to Starfall seems to have been a very honorable thing to have done. And if Wylla was brought to the Tower of Joy from Starfall by Arthur, perhaps the Lord of Starfall understood what was going on. Perhaps the Lord of Starfall understood that Arthur had been charged with defending Lyanna from Robert, but that childbirth had left her too weak to move, putting Eddard and Arthur into an impossible dilemma. I assume that the Lord of Starfall agreed to keep Jon Snow's true parentage a secret out of respect for Arthur. In this way, Eddard achieved what Arthur died for. 

If Wylla gave birth to anyone, that person would be her son or daughter. Edric is a few years younger than Jon, and Catelyn tells us that Eddard brought Jon and Wylla to Winterfell. So, we can assume that Wylla returned to Starfall after Jon was we ened and began nursing Edric. Wylla being Jon's mother was the story Eddard and the Lord of Starfall gave to cover Jon's true identity. 

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4 hours ago, rhoynestar said:

 

Two options: 1) It's a romantic legend and Edric is intrigued by it, hence his interest in Arya and the Starks. Sort of like Renly trying to get Ned to say Margaery and Lyanna look alike, because he apparently wants to repeat Robert's legend of usurping the throne for love. Assuming here that the Daynes think Arthur died in a fair duel, no hard feelings, and Ashara was in love so even if Ned didn't reciprocate it's not his fault. 

 

Umm, I think Renly knew that Robert is still in love with Lyanna and wanted to bring in a Cersei's rival whom Robert would have enough crush on to discard Cersei for.

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

It is important to remember Ned Dayne wasn't born and only has second hand knowledge, and that I believe much of it has come from Allyria who it also seems likely is quite young, too young to have been aware of the goings on in 282. (Infact many believe she is Brandon & Ashara's daughter whom Barristan believes was stillborn.)

The tale is unlikely due to the nature of it painting Ned Stark as a cad. 

I think the Dayne's named Ned Dayne for Ned Stark to honour him having not only returned Dawn but my own personal theory is he also returned Gerold Dayne, who would have been around 12 himself and I think was likely a squire at the ToJ. It bugged me for years that House Dayne named their heir Ned. I too felt the returning of a sword not enough to warrant such honour.  But when I pieced together the idea Darkstar was in fact at the ToJ, and at last it made sense that they'd honour Ned for his act of mercy in sparing the boy and for returning Dawn. 

Wylla too was allowed to nurse Jon, and she was/is and employee of House Dayne. They gave permission for her to help Eddard. Which again speaks of a family not holding Arthur's death against the man. If there was a person to vouch for Ned's behaviour and the circumstances of Arthur's death it makes more sense that they allowed him her services. 

 

I have been thinking about Gerald Dayne too. 

I think he knows about R+L=J, but I didn't even think to assume he might have been there at TOJ. 

Why did House Dayne disown him?  IF he was there at TOJ or knew about R+L=J, he was probably trying constantly to push Dayne's to proclaim for Jon and they forbid him to talk about it or even get close to the North...

 

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38 minutes ago, Masha said:

Umm, I think Renly knew that Robert is still in love with Lyanna and wanted to bring in a Cersei's rival whom Robert would have enough crush on to discard Cersei for.

Yes, it turned out to be that way. I had originally thought, when I first read that scene, that Renly was trying for a redo of Robert's legend so he could be Robert's heir/take the throne (before we find out that they had other ideas). It would have been a very Renly thing to recreate a romantic legend for himself -- larger than life. Edric Dayne, I think, might have been romanticizing Ned Stark-Ashara and Ned's duel with Arthur in the same vein when he seems eager to get to know the Starks. He's only 12 after all. 

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12 hours ago, GhostNymeria said:

I don't have the quotes next to me, but if I remember correctly Edric only tells Arya that Wylla was Jon's milk mother. He never says that Wylla is Jon's real mother, it's only Arya who jumps to that conclusion and she notes that she's going to tell Jon when they reunite.

No, he says that Wylla is Jon's mother. He is a milk brother because she was Edric's wet nurse.

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