U.S. Elections 2016 - Polls in mirror appear closer than they are

[Shryke]

Dan Savage wrote this back during the primaries and he's still not wrong:

http://www.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/2016/02/22/23606058/hillary-clinton-used-to-be-terrible-on-marriage-equality

A select quote:

Quote

 

We're taking motherfucking yes for a motherfucking answer.

Hillary Clinton's support for marriage equality may be a political calculation. And you know what? We worked hard to change the math so that those political calculations would start adding up in our favor. So sincere change of heart or political calculation—either way—I will take it.

It's fucking moronic—it's political malpractice—to attack a politician for coming around on your issues. There are lots of other issues the queer community is going to be pressing politicians on, from passing equal rights bills and trans rights bills to defeating anti-trans bathroom legislation and RFRAs. If pols who are currently on the wrong side of any of those issues see no benefit to changing their positions—if they see no political benefit—they're going to be harder to persuade. Why should they come around on our issues, why should they switch sides or change their votes, if we're going to go after them hammer and tongs for the positions they used to hold? ("Please change your mind and support us." "No." "Pretty please?" "OK, I've changed my mind and I'll vote to support you." "FUCK YOU FOR NOT ALWAYS AGREEING WITH ME! I'M NOT VOTING FOR YOU! FUCK YOU SOME MORE!")

Queer people who are doing this? We're fucking ourselves with this shit, not Clinton. Stop it. Straight people who are doing this shit? You may be hurting Clinton but you're also hurting the queers you claim to care so much about. Stop it.

 

He also rightly points out that Obama and Sanders and probably most major politicians you can name have played this game.

I know it's 12 years ago now, but it was only like 12 years ago now that the GOP was driving voters to the polls with gay marriage bans at the state level.

[Shryke]

Anyway, on the subject of Trump and corruption:

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/2016/09/21/some-donations-trump-foundation-count-trumps-money-aide-says/90784632/

Quote

 

A longtime aide to the Trump family defended Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump’s record of charitable giving on Wednesday, arguing some money given to Trump’s foundation by third parties "is his money."

Lynne Patton, a senior assistant to three of Trump’s adult children and the vice president of son Eric Trump’s charitable foundation, told The Des Moines Register that some donations to the Donald J. Trump Foundation should be recognized as contributions from Trump himself because in some cases that money would have been paid to Trump directly.

“A lot of times Mr. Trump will give a speech somewhere or he’ll raise money in some way and he asks that that entity, instead of cutting a personal check to him, cut it to his charity,” Patton said. “That’s money that otherwise would’ve been in his personal account, right?”

“So when he cuts a check from his foundation for let’s say, St. Jude, it is his money,” she added. “No ifs, ands or ways about it.”

 

Which, uh .... sounds kinda illegal to me, though obviously it would depend on the specifics of the tax code and how he registered the money and such.

[Shryke]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Harakiri,

It is very difficult to ignore the voices of 140,000,000 people (40% of 350,000,000).  Ignoring that many people will not lead to anything good.  That doesn't make bigoted opinions a good thing but it does mean that by shear mass 140,000,000 hold a lot of power.

Yes, this is why you work hard to make their views unacceptable to have an say. Sadly, just Trump running is doing the opposite and him winning would be even worse.

[Hereward]

3 hours ago, Chaircat Meow said:

I've really wanted Trump to win ever since he proposed the Muslim ban. The US certainly has less of a problem with its Muslim immigrants than Sweden, the UK, France and Germany do currently, yet this also means that the Americans have an opportunity to learn from Europe's mistakes. Even if there is no solution to the problem, you should at least do all you can to stop compounding it.

I also agree that the overall effect of a large Muslim population on the host country is a far greater problem than the terrorists the Islamic population invariably seems to throw up (although this is a serious issue too). However, the inability of Obama and Clinton to acknowledge the fact that the more Muslims you have in your country, the more serious the threat of terror, and their refusal to recognize that the current terrorism is religiously inspired, means that there is no hope of them understanding the even graver threat posed by Islamification.

As the total Islamic terror count in the UK in the last 10 years is, as I recall, 1, whereas the terror count on the US in the same period is, I believe, 89, I call bullshit.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

14 minutes ago, Shryke said:

Yes, this is why you work hard to make their views unacceptable to have an say. Sadly, just Trump running is doing the opposite and him winning would be even worse.

Indeed.  Nevertheless, we are where we are.  Sticking our fingers in our ears and refusing to engage 140,000,000 people will not accomplish anything.

[Boris the Blade]

43 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Indeed.  Nevertheless, we are where we are.  Sticking our fingers in our ears and refusing to engage 140,000,000 people will not accomplish anything.

And neither does engaging them and debating them on their views as if it is on par with disagreeing on what's the best way to cook a meal. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

18 minutes ago, Harakiri said:

And neither does engaging them and debating them on their views as if it is on par with disagreeing on what's the best way to cook a meal. 

You appear to be missing my point.  I'm about to sit down to dinner.  I'll attempt to elaborate later.

[Inigima]

1 hour ago, Shryke said:

Anyway, on the subject of Trump and corruption:

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/2016/09/21/some-donations-trump-foundation-count-trumps-money-aide-says/90784632/

Which, uh .... sounds kinda illegal to me, though obviously it would depend on the specifics of the tax code and how he registered the money and such.

That sounds like an utterly insane post hoc rationalization. The very fact that it was made out to the charity and not Trump personally is what makes it not his money. That's what makes it a fucking charity.

[DraculaAD1972]

22 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I don't know how you can claim Trump is less corrupt than Hillary. Trump openly admitted he has bought politicians in the past. So if he bought Hillary some time in the past, doesn't hat make him equally corrupt? People claiming the buyer of influence is less corrupt than the seller are simply fooling themselves.

I fail to see how anyone can claim a moral or ethics basis for voting for Trump over Hillary. He's at least as bad if not worse than Hillary, so if it comes down to a binary decision between Trump and Clinton on moral and ethical grounds you can't objectively come down on the side of Trump.

I get that Trump has been corrupt. What's refreshing is he openly admits it and more importantly he isn't saying it will be a hallmark of his presidency, quite the opposite - didn't he talk about fighting the same corruption once he's in office? As a businessman he played the game. As president he intends to break the wheel. I don't see how he can make America great again or make government less corrupt but it would be interesting for once to see someone try. Obama was such a disappointment, promising progress, Trump could be the same. A big letdown. But what makes him shine is his lack of ties to the usual corrupt establishment. He isn't a puppet like Obama. Clinton however is in another league when it comes to corruption. Bill and Hillary are notoriously corrupt. The rumours and testimonials about Bill's dark side are scary and convincing. 

[Kalbear]

Quote

But what makes him shine is his lack of ties to the usual corrupt establishment. He isn't a puppet like Obama. 

No, he's instead a puppet of an entirely different flavor. From his changing the entire Republican platform so that it supported Putin, to openly embracing other autocratic countries, to actively paying off attorney generals - we've not seen this level of naked corruption in a candidate in a long time. 

He has all the normal ties to the usual corrupt establishment - paying bribes, taking political money to change his viewpoints, shilling whatever position works best for him - and that's just in the last 3 months, mind you. But he's also very openly catering to foreign governments in a way that no US president has. As you say, it's quite refreshing. 

[Leofric]

3 hours ago, Shryke said:

Anyway, on the subject of Trump and corruption:

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/2016/09/21/some-donations-trump-foundation-count-trumps-money-aide-says/90784632/

Which, uh .... sounds kinda illegal to me, though obviously it would depend on the specifics of the tax code and how he registered the money and such.

It sounds like fraud on both sides,   The person paying Trump for a speech or whatever, pays it to his charity foundation so they can claim a charitable deduction on their taxes, and Trump avoids declaring it as income that he would have to pay taxes on.  And then he just takes the money out of the charity for his own use, whenever he needs some cash.

[Gertrude]

29 minutes ago, King Of The Slums said:

I get that Trump has been corrupt. What's refreshing is he openly admits it and more importantly he isn't saying it will be a hallmark of his presidency, quite the opposite - didn't he talk about fighting the same corruption once he's in office?

He can say anything he wants. He (allegedly) uses his charity as a personal cash box and scammed people with Trump University. What do you honestly think he's going to do if he gets the keys to the White House? Can you honestly say you trust him not to loot the treasury for all it's worth for his own personal gain and favor? Actions speak louder than words.

[DraculaAD1972]

7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

No, he's instead a puppet of an entirely different flavor. From his changing the entire Republican platform so that it supported Putin, to openly embracing other autocratic countries, to actively paying off attorney generals - we've not seen this level of naked corruption in a candidate in a long time. 

He has all the normal ties to the usual corrupt establishment - paying bribes, taking political money to change his viewpoints, shilling whatever position works best for him - and that's just in the last 3 months, mind you. But he's also very openly catering to foreign governments in a way that no US president has. As you say, it's quite refreshing. 

I'm less disturbed by this attorney general bribe/donation than I am about Hillary's culpability in the Bengazi tragedy. Families are suing her for causing deaths. How many deaths is Trump accused of?  Is Trumps bribe worse than the recently leaked stuff about the democratic party donors? Is Trump best mates with the Bush family like the Clintons? Are the rumours about Trump anywhere near as bad as those about Bill and Hillary? As for Putin, it IS refreshing, actually. The last Cold War was a drag.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

46 minutes ago, King Of The Slums said:

I get that Trump has been corrupt. What's refreshing is he openly admits it and more importantly he isn't saying it will be a hallmark of his presidency, quite the opposite - didn't he talk about fighting the same corruption once he's in office? As a businessman he played the game. As president he intends to break the wheel. I don't see how he can make America great again or make government less corrupt but it would be interesting for once to see someone try. Obama was such a disappointment, promising progress, Trump could be the same. A big letdown. But what makes him shine is his lack of ties to the usual corrupt establishment. He isn't a puppet like Obama. Clinton however is in another league when it comes to corruption. Bill and Hillary are notoriously corrupt. The rumours and testimonials about Bill's dark side are scary and convincing. 

You know for all the allegations of influence with the Clinton Foundation, it at least helps people. Charity Watch rates it an A and Charity Navigator rates it 94.7/100. Thousands of real people are actually being helped by the Clinton Foundation.

The Trump Foundation, by contrast, spent 20,000 on a 6 ft tall portrait of Donald Trump and 12,000 on a signed Tim Tebow helmet. It spent hundreds of thousands on settlements and legal fees for Trump's private businesses.

It's a good analogy overall for Bill and Hillary Clinton. They may be venal, bureaucratic, somewhat vindictive, political weather-vanes, but they're also effective at what they do. Did you live through the Clinton years? They were pretty good. I mean, sure a lot of the economic growth can't really be credited to or blamed on the President, but the fact remains that Bill Clinton didn't do any stupid, like invade Iraq without a plan for the occupation. Despite the scandals, for the average person, things were good.

Also: https://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/trump-bought-120000-luxury-trip-with-trump-foundation-money?utm_term=.dg1xkDKlWk#.ye5x9Y6NR9

[Boris the Blade]

47 minutes ago, King Of The Slums said:

I get that Trump has been corrupt. What's refreshing is he openly admits it and more importantly he isn't saying it will be a hallmark of his presidency, quite the opposite - didn't he talk about fighting the same corruption once he's in office? As a businessman he played the game. As president he intends to break the wheel. I don't see how he can make America great again or make government less corrupt but it would be interesting for once to see someone try. Obama was such a disappointment, promising progress, Trump could be the same. A big letdown. But what makes him shine is his lack of ties to the usual corrupt establishment. He isn't a puppet like Obama. Clinton however is in another league when it comes to corruption. Bill and Hillary are notoriously corrupt. The rumours and testimonials about Bill's dark side are scary and convincing. 

Trump talks about a lot of things, flip flops a lot. He talks about fighting corruption yet has been corrupt during his campaign. And no progress with Obama in office? There has been some, but no thanks to the conservative congress. Btw, I love the apologist rehtoric justifying Trumps corruptipn by watering it down to just playing the game. 

 

Trump isnt breakig any wheel, he's already proven that and shown he'll be as corrupt as he was as a businessman. He's not doing this to help the country's, he's doing it for personal gain.

[The Anti-Targ]

40 minutes ago, King Of The Slums said:

I get that Trump has been corrupt. What's refreshing is he openly admits it and more importantly he isn't saying it will be a hallmark of his presidency, quite the opposite - didn't he talk about fighting the same corruption once he's in office? As a businessman he played the game. As president he intends to break the wheel. I don't see how he can make America great again or make government less corrupt but it would be interesting for once to see someone try. Obama was such a disappointment, promising progress, Trump could be the same. A big letdown. But what makes him shine is his lack of ties to the usual corrupt establishment. He isn't a puppet like Obama. Clinton however is in another league when it comes to corruption. Bill and Hillary are notoriously corrupt. The rumours and testimonials about Bill's dark side are scary and convincing. 

Well that's wrong. As already admitted, he is just on the other side of the corrupt establishment coin. It's not like someone campaigns to be president saying they plan to engage in corrupt activity to get things done. 

Trump does not shine in any way on this. We wasn't even repentant when he talked about his engagement in political corruption. He was saying like he's a boss and he had everyone under his control, so you might as well just make it official and put him in control. He was crowing about his past, making it sound like people should bow to his awesomeness. These are not the words of a person who is determined to change his ways. His only shield is that he's so damned rich that he can't be bought. But it turns out he's maybe not as rich as he likes to make out, and that he absolutely hates spending his money on anything but him. So if he can get OPM for doing stuff then he probably will, and not think too long and hard about the ethics and legality of it all. So his personal wealth shield is looking more like a fig leaf every day.

[Boris the Blade]

Idk how Trump supporters that admit he's a corrupt businessman think he's just going to magically change if he's in the white house, especially when he's shown himself to still be corrupt all throughout his campaign and not only corrupt but a compulsive liar that panders to what ever works best for him. God some people are really gullible / naive.

[all swedes are racist]

53 minutes ago, King Of The Slums said:

I get that Trump has been corrupt. What's refreshing is he openly admits it and more importantly he isn't saying it will be a hallmark of his presidency, quite the opposite - didn't he talk about fighting the same corruption once he's in office? As a businessman he played the game. As president he intends to break the wheel. I don't see how he can make America great again or make government less corrupt but it would be interesting for once to see someone try. Obama was such a disappointment, promising progress, Trump could be the same. A big letdown. But what makes him shine is his lack of ties to the usual corrupt establishment. He isn't a puppet like Obama. Clinton however is in another league when it comes to corruption. Bill and Hillary are notoriously corrupt. The rumours and testimonials about Bill's dark side are scary and convincing. 

Lol! 

Why the pluperfect hell would that be refreshing? Is a serial thief for being brazenly unrepentant about stealing? A domestic abuser is ok for not hiding behind "she fell down some stairs?" 

And "lack of ties to the usual corrupt establishment"... The guy bribed an state AG to drop a suit/investigation against one of his businesses? If that is outside the 'establishment' I shudder in horror at what he would do with the weight of the (establishment!) presidency behind him. 

[DraculaAD1972]

20 minutes ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

You know for all the allegations of influence with the Clinton Foundation, it at least helps people. Charity Watch rates it an A and Charity Navigator rates it 94.7/100. Thousands of real people are actually being helped by the Clinton Foundation.

The Trump Foundation, by contrast, spent 20,000 on a 6 ft tall portrait of Donald Trump and 12,000 on a signed Tim Tebow helmet. It spent hundreds of thousands on settlements and legal fees for Trump's private businesses.

It's a good analogy overall for Bill and Hillary Clinton. They may be venal, bureaucratic, somewhat vindictive, political weather-vanes, but they're also effective at what they do. Did you live through the Clinton years? They were pretty good. I mean, sure a lot of the economic growth can't really be credited to or blamed on the President, but the fact remains that Bill Clinton didn't do any stupid, like invade Iraq without a plan for the occupation. Despite the scandals, for the average person, things were good.

Also: https://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/trump-bought-120000-luxury-trip-with-trump-foundation-money?utm_term=.dg1xkDKlWk#.ye5x9Y6NR9

As I recall Bill was responsible for bombing a pharmaceutical factory in the Sudan, disaster for the people of the Sudan, for personal political benefit. He also prosecuted and attended the execution of a mentally disabled man again for personal political benefit. Don't get me started on the serial rape allegations. But I get he wasn't Bush. He's just best friends with Bush. Please don't mistake my bias here - I think Trump is interesting as a phenomenon but I understand why folks don't like him. He's a blowhard egomaniac with ridiculous hair who commands rallies of thousands like a rattlesnake in its element. But look at Wicked Hillary and despair, democrats- your Dark Queen is constantly coughing and falling over and looks more ridiculous than even Crazy Corrupt Trump as a prospect for the presidency.   

[Martell Spy]

Trump never said he was going to fix corruption. He noted it existed, and how he has participated in it. That's it.  And we have numerous signs of rapacious greed in his private dealings. The unpaid contractors, the screwed over business partners, the list goes on and on. You have to actively block this stuff out in order to ignore the glaring signs. I think what Trump admires most about Putin is how he steals his nation's wealth and places it offshore.

We also have a fairly good idea what a Clinton White House looks like, since we already had Bill Clinton's. The good and bad is all there.