US Elections: If you experience a painful election...

[Castel]

1 minute ago, Ariadne23 said:

There was just never any explanation given, of any kind, of why she used her own server for government email when government employees know they would be disciplined even forward work email to their personal accounts.

I don't think she's a criminal. But it's hard to get behind someone you just cannot understand.

Cause others did it, iirc people like Colin Powell and such.

I think it was partly an issue of wanting access to personal emails conveniently but also not wanting them to be stuck on government emails in case some rascal wants to go through them. 

If we're assuming it's not  just direct corruption that is. 

The thing is..it's really hard to pin down Hillary. Because of so much of the backlash it's actually hard to know how to calibrate your reaction to things cause you (I) almost want to underreact to balance the GOP and the stridency in the atmosphere.It's actually a seductive impulse as @James Arryn said to just put it all on sexism. I tend to lean towards Powell's view that Hillary just commits needless errors out of hubris but people sure do help her along.

[HoodedCrow]

Hillary couldn't overcome centuries of character  assassination.  Men are always better than men, cause Augustine said so. It's the divine natural order. Amen.

[James Arryn]

1 minute ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

And a liar. He's running on a platform that emulates an authoritarian (and we all know he loves authoritarians). A leopard doesn't change his spots. What may prevent him from going into full blown fascism is Congress, which may make itself useful for once. 

But to answer your question, yes, that still makes him a fascist, although our system is designed in such a way that he may not be able to implement his Final Solution. 

Agreed. A fascist manicled by circumstance...and I do not have the faith in the system that Scot has...is still a fascist. 'It couldn't happen here' can never again be said to anything but a laughing audience. 

[Fez]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Harry Reid nuked the Filibutser for Judicial nominiees some time ago.

And executive appointments. Its still there for SCOTUS and legislation though. For now.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, mormont said:

What you're calling for has never existed in any political party I've ever heard of in any country at any time. I'm not even sure what it would look like. 'Very simple'? Simple to say, maybe. Not simple in any other way.

I've said this a couple of times before the vote, but the hope has to be now that it's true: Trump isn't Mussolini, he's Berlusconi.

Mind you, that still would make him an unscrupulous corrupt liar who'll happily parrot fascist talking points and ally with racists if it gets him what he wants, who respects no social institution and will do any amount of damage to others if it serves his interests, and who in his heart is only concerned with his own vanity and comfort.

As bad as that is, it would be better than the idea that he actually means to do everything he promised to do.

Mormont,

Barring a miracle I'll never care for Trump.  He's a POS in my earnest opinion.  I'm just hoping he more a blowhard than a Rust Cohle style "doer".

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 minutes ago, Fez said:

And executive appointments. Its still there for SCOTUS and legislation though. For now.

Mea Culpa.  Given the precident I doubt they stand long.

[Altherion]

18 minutes ago, Ariadne23 said:

Honestly I feel like all this "we should understand how upset Hillary must be" talk from the campaign and liberal pundits is super freaking sexist.

It's also pretty ridiculous. I'm not sure that anyone can truly understand her just now. This is somebody who was oh-so-close to a goal that she had been pursuing for well over a decade (possibly a lot longer). Given that practically everyone else was sure she was going to get it, I'm fairly confident that she thought so too. And then, at the last moment, it is snatched away from her by... someone absurd, someone who, by her standards, does not even rise to the level of a serious competitor. Someone who has half the money and no ground game and has just about managed to insult 75% of the population with his vulgarity. And this is it -- this time around, she's not getting another chance. I can't imagine how that must feel.

[James Arryn]

Can I say again, in all seriousness, that it's going to get a lot worse before/if it ever gets better. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

She's started.

[James Arryn]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Mormont,

Barring a miracle I'll never care for Trump.  He's a POS in my earnest opinion.  I'm just hoping he more a blowhard than a Rust Cohle style "doer".

That we're reduced to hoping for Trumpian inaction is like a real-time distopian melodrama that can't be overcome by Haggen-Dazs or NFL football.

[Castel]

4 minutes ago, mormont said:

What you're calling for has never existed in any political party I've ever heard of in any country at any time. I'm not even sure what it would look like. 'Very simple'? Simple to say, maybe. Not simple in any other way.

What he actually means is "I thought my guy would win if it weren't for those meddling party insiders" (or people who voted in states we lost), masked as a sort of policy claim.

(Not to mention that just handing over the entire party to anyone who wins in a time when >40% of people will vote for anyone with an R or D in front of their name being incredibly problematic...)

[zelticgar]

6 minutes ago, butterbumps! said:

It would be much appreciated if you took a sec here.   What's coming across to me is rampant denial of latent, insidious sexism in the American public.     Dismissing this is unhelpful to everyone.

Sexism is pretty major here.   It's not all avowed MRA misogynists.  It's also a whole lot of everyday sexism.  Clearly gendered comments and the like of the sort you're dismissing.    It's by people who'd be horrified to know that what they're thinking/ saying is sexist, but get too defensive to accept they're contributing.   Lots of people-- even good, otherwise well-meaning people-- contribute to the sexist climate.

Trumps supporters do, in fact, have a strong streak of bigotry coursing thru (including sexism).   I get that these supporters feel marginalized.  But they also have no empathy for the people they continually shit on while denying the existence of bigotry.  They do, actually, need to understand that what they say and do does genuinely hurt people.   Denying it gets us no where.   

And I've said a bunch of times that I agree Clinton is a flawed candidate.   I don't know why you're treating things like a zero sum thing.   Yea, there's reason not to like her, but frankly, except for wanting indulging in some unsavory bigotry and/ or being conned by fantastical Trump promises, there's no compelling reason to vote for Trump over Clinton.  It's just in no one's self- interest to do so otherwise.  

You over look the abandonment of the working class by the Democrats. They abandoned the working class voters in favor of big business, hollywood insiders and DC insiders. This new establishment has nothing to offer the population of people who formerly relied on unions and manufacturing for their livelihood. The democrats put these people in a position of choosing for hope even with a flawed candidate such as Trump.  Clinton has nothing to offer them but government programs and assurances that turned out to be lies. Given these options it is completely understandable that many would roll the dice and hope that Trump will do a better job for them.

It is just too bad you cant get past your prejudice assumptions to see this truth. I understand it is a lot easier to sit on your high horse and assure yourself that you are so much more self aware and righteous than these people. The reality is that the Democrats represent big business and elitism. You tip that balance too far and populism rears its head.  

 

 

[TheKitttenGuard]

Though it is quite dark now I will not weep for the Filibuster demise.  It may of had some value but it history is one where some real progress was halt.  It was also terrible abused and misused.

[James Arryn]

7 minutes ago, Castel said:

Cause others did it, iirc people like Colin Powell and such.

I think it was partly an issue of wanting access to personal emails conveniently but also not wanting them to be stuck on government emails in case some rascal wants to go through them. 

If we're assuming it's not  just direct corruption that is. 

The thing is..it's really hard to pin down Hillary. Because of so much of the backlash it's actually hard to know how to calibrate your reaction to things cause you (I) almost want to underreact to balance the GOP and the stridency in the atmosphere.It's actually a seductive impulse as @James Arryn said to just put it all on sexism. I tend to lean towards Powell's view that Hillary just commits needless errors out of hubris but people sure do help her along.

Agreed. Sexism did her no favours, and in something this close you can call it definitive, but so many unforced errors leaves one with the elusive image of a handed cake-walk dropped out of sheer entitlement and incompetence. That said, my best case alternative..I guess Biden...would not have had an easy time against such entrenched 'we're the victim!' bigotry.

[Castel]

3 minutes ago, Altherion said:

It's also pretty ridiculous. I'm not sure that anyone can truly understand her just now. This is somebody who was oh-so-close to a goal that she had been pursuing for well over a decade (possibly a lot longer). Given that practically everyone else was sure she was going to get it, I'm fairly confident that she thought so too. And then, at the last moment, it is snatched away from her by... someone absurd, someone who, by her standards, does not even rise to the level of a serious competitor. Someone who has half the money and no ground game and has just about managed to insult 75% of the population with his vulgarity. And this is it -- this time around, she's not getting another chance. I can't imagine how that must feel.

I  actually feel bad for her, and I honestly never have before now. 

She's a historic loser. As Politico said she's either a footnote or will go down in infamy as someone who got fucked by Donald Trump and opened the door for at least 4 years of GOP rule. Someone who just could never close.

All that ambition, all that perseverance...and America just doesn't want you. Even worse, all the shit that your political opponents threw at you stuck, it's now true, it's now right. 

But it is what it is, no one is owed anything , least of all a presidency.

[Frog Eater]

on a campaign note, will anyone be more sought after to run a campaign than Kelly Anne Conway?

She was relentless, on the talking head shows every morning and every night, took over a floundering campaign and took it to victory. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

14 minutes ago, butterbumps! said:

It would be much appreciated if you took a sec here.   What's coming across to me is rampant denial of latent, insidious sexism in the American public.     Dismissing this is unhelpful to everyone.

Sexism is pretty major here.   It's not all avowed MRA misogynists.  It's also a whole lot of everyday sexism.  Clearly gendered comments and the like of the sort you're dismissing.    It's by people who'd be horrified to know that what they're thinking/ saying is sexist, but get too defensive to accept they're contributing.   Lots of people-- even good, otherwise well-meaning people-- contribute to the sexist climate.

Trumps supporters do, in fact, have a strong streak of bigotry coursing thru (including sexism).   I get that these supporters feel marginalized.  But they also have no empathy for the people they continually shit on while denying the existence of bigotry.  They do, actually, need to understand that what they say and do does genuinely hurt people.   Denying it gets us no where.   

And I've said a bunch of times that I agree Clinton is a flawed candidate.   I don't know why you're treating things like a zero sum thing.   Yea, there's reason not to like her, but frankly, except for wanting indulging in some unsavory bigotry and/ or being conned by fantastical Trump promises, there's no compelling reason to vote for Trump over Clinton.  It's just in no one's self- interest to do so otherwise.  

To be fair I find the whole issue quite debatable, but its that often the subject is completely shut down, and those who disagree with the supposed consensous are labelled as bigots... pretty much like your post above. This probably isn't the place for that discussion though.

I'm not treating it as a zero sum game at all. Clintons campaign was littered with flaws and problems, she was never going to be voted in. But her gender was so low down the list of reasons people disliked her that is barely worth mentioning. That some people want to promote the idea it was based on sexism tends to just highlight that some people have an agenda of their own. 



 

[TheKitttenGuard]

5 minutes ago, zelticgar said:

You over look the abandonment of the working class by the Democrats. They abandoned the working class voters in favor of big business, hollywood insiders and DC insiders. This new establishment has nothing to offer the population of people who formerly relied on unions and manufacturing for their livelihood. The democrats put these people in a position of choosing for hope even with a flawed candidate such as Trump.  Clinton has nothing to offer them but government programs and assurances that turned out to be lies. Given these options it is completely understandable that many would roll the dice and hope that Trump will do a better job for them.

It is just too bad you cant get past your prejudice assumptions to see this truth. I understand it is a lot easier to sit on your high horse and assure yourself that you are so much more self aware and righteous than these people. The reality is that the Democrats represent big business and elitism. You tip that balance too far and populism rears its head.  

 

 

Yeah and the person they elected was a celebirty New York City business man who hosted a reality show.

There is soul search but good grief.

[butterbumps!]

Just now, zelticgar said:

You over look the abandonment of the working class by the Democrats. They abandoned the working class voters in favor of big business, hollywood insiders and DC insiders. This new establishment has nothing to offer the population of people who formerly relied on unions and manufacturing for their livelihood. The democrats put these people in a position of choosing for hope even with a flawed candidate such as Trump.  Clinton has nothing to offer them but government programs and assurances that turned out to be lies. Given these options it is completely understandable that many would roll the dice and hope that Trump will do a better job for them.

It is just too bad you cant get past your prejudice assumptions to see this truth. I understand it is a lot easier to sit on your high horse and assure yourself that you are so much more self aware and righteous than these people. The reality is that the Democrats represent big business and elitism. You tip that balance too far and populism rears its head.  

 

 

Well, I'm really not.    The issue as I see it is that these people have been duped by a fraud.   He isn't going to do jack shit for their plight.    They may believe Trump has their back, but they've just been sold a lemon.   The reality is that Trump is worse for their material prospects than Hillary would have been, but they've been fed a steady stream of "news" and party lines that have these voters enthusiastic to vote against their self interest (and/ or to not recognize their self interest at all). 

She offered them tangible benefits.   He offers them an outlet for a hissy fit.

[Ariadne23]

17 minutes ago, SerPaladin said:

Only took a couple hours.  On Slate, "White Women Betrayed the Sisterhood". http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/11/09/white_women_sold_out_the_sisterhood_and_the_world_by_voting_for_trump.html

Here's a nice quote:

Quote

Most white women don’t want to be part of an intersectional feminist sisterhood. Most white women just want to be one of the guys. 

Jesus H. Christ lady.

I'd really like to see some good voter turnout data. Because if Hillary lost votes because white women stayed home and not because white women turned out in record numbers to fuck over the sacred sisterhood this is not really fair.