Rant and Rave without Repercussions [S7 Leaks Edition]

[Le Cygne]

8 hours ago, teej6 said:

If the leaks are true, S7 will definitely top S6 for ridiculousness and the sheer absurdity of the plot. It almost seems like GRRM told D&D the ending of the story, giving them broad strokes of endings of story arcs of a few central characters. The rest of the story they filled in with their sub-par fanfic after they ran out source material. 

True, they knew how the main characters would end up before the show began. He gave them the first part and the last part, and they make up filler to bridge what came before and what is to come. He gives them details as he can, and they even use lines from some of the unpublished chapters he shares with them.

This interview is from 2011:

Series executive producers D.B. Weiss attempted to further calm their nerves, telling TVGuide.com, "We've talked through what the final episode, the final season will be." Executive producer David Benioff adds: "We can't wait to write that episode. Of the many different fears we have about the show, long-term momentum is not one of them. We're very confident."...

Fortunately for fans, Martin has been serving as an available advisor for producers, and they say the partnership, however loose, has given them inside knowledge about what lies ahead for Jon Snow, Daenerys and the other denizens of Westeros. "George has proven through the discussions we've had that he's always known in the rough, broad strokes where this is going to end up," Weiss says."And we think it's going to end up in a way that is uniquely satisfying."

http://www.tvguide.com/news/game-thrones-lost-1031645/

Bryan Cogman: And then George reads the outline every year, and gives his notes and thoughts... We've been teeing up stuff all the time, since season one. We've known answers to questions since season one, the fates of certain characters.

http://www.vulture.com/2015/04/game-of-thrones-showrunners-on-changes-from-the-books.html

[Pink Fat Rast]

Quote

"The fact is, even though we’re making changes to the books and adapting as necessary, we’re trying to keep the various storylines the same [as the books] and trying to keep them roughly [chronologically] parallel. And [in Season 4] we caught up to the end of Bran's storyline [in George R.R. Martin’s most recent book, A Dance with Dragons] last year. So if we pushed him forward this season, then he's way ahead of where the other characters are...Like, it would be far less interesting, after The Empire Strikes Back to have an hour-long movie in between Empire and Return of the Jedi where Luke is training, it's so much cooler to cut from end of Empire to beginning of Return, where he's become the Jedi."[35]

TL;DR version: Benioff hates Bran and shafted him in S5.

[Dragonsbone]

36 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

True, they knew how the main characters would end up before the show began. He gave them the first part and the last part, and they make up filler to bridge what came before and what is to come. He gives them details as he can, and they even use lines from some of the unpublished chapters he shares with them.

This interview is from 2011:

Series executive producers D.B. Weiss attempted to further calm their nerves, telling TVGuide.com, "We've talked through what the final episode, the final season will be." Executive producer David Benioff adds: "We can't wait to write that episode. Of the many different fears we have about the show, long-term momentum is not one of them. We're very confident."...

Fortunately for fans, Martin has been serving as an available advisor for producers, and they say the partnership, however loose, has given them inside knowledge about what lies ahead for Jon Snow, Daenerys and the other denizens of Westeros. "George has proven through the discussions we've had that he's always known in the rough, broad strokes where this is going to end up," Weiss says."And we think it's going to end up in a way that is uniquely satisfying."

http://www.tvguide.com/news/game-thrones-lost-1031645/

Bryan Cogman: And then George reads the outline every year, and gives his notes and thoughts... We've been teeing up stuff all the time, since season one. We've known answers to questions since season one, the fates of certain characters.

http://www.vulture.com/2015/04/game-of-thrones-showrunners-on-changes-from-the-books.html

And they keep saying that every season at every interview. Just look it up.  Most of their interviews can be found on youtube. What is so astoning, are the people who consistently keep saying that the producers don't know how the story will end. Yet the producers keep saying it in every god damn interview. It is not like they keep it a secret. I dont know what to believe when I read the posts of some people:  that the commentors are not informed, or that they force themselves to believe it. What do you expect: That GRRM is gonna write on his Blog "Yep, everything will happen in the forthcoming books just the way you saw it in the show". D&D will for sure not lie about this stuff. GRRM is a god damn producer on the show. Of course he is gonna read the outline. Of course he is gonna give notes. Of course this notes are related to his books.

[Cas Stark]

13 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

And they keep saying that every season at every interview. Just look it up.  Most of their interviews can be found on youtube. What is so astoning, are the people who consistently keep saying that the producers don't know how the story will end. Yet the producers keep saying it in every god damn interview. It is not like they keep it a secret. I dont know what to believe when I read the posts of some people:  that the commentors are not informed, or that they force themselves to believe it. What do you expect: That GRRM is gonna write on his Blog "Yep, everything will happen in the forthcoming books just the way you saw it in the show". D&D will for sure not lie about this stuff. GRRM is a god damn producer on the show. Of course he is gonna read the outline. Of course he is gonna give notes. Of course this notes are related to his books.

Who says the show doesn't know how the story will end?  There are a few people who seem to hope that Martin will change his ending, which he might, and make it different from the show, but then also a lot of people who don't think Martin will ever actually finish the story...but I think about 99% of people understand that HBO and the show have always known the ending that GRRM gave them, and have always said that the show will end the same as the books for the main characters,

[Pink Fat Rast]

I wonder if TWOW has "20 good men" in it, and now that everyone's making fun of that he's like "oh fuck" and then changes it 

Probably not, or it's gonna be more realistic with use of environment or whatever

[Queen of Procrastination]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Who says the show doesn't know how the story will end?  There are a few people who seem to hope that Martin will change his ending, which he might, and make it different from the show, but then also a lot of people who don't think Martin will ever actually finish the story...but I think about 99% of people understand that HBO and the show have always known the ending that GRRM gave them, and have always said that the show will end the same as the books for the main characters,

I saw people arguing that GRRM have the showrunners a false ending or that they aren't gonna stick to his ending a few times. Still in general most people do believe that the fates of the main characters will be the same in the show and the books. 

[Dragonsbone]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Who says the show doesn't know how the story will end?  There are a few people who seem to hope that Martin will change his ending, which he might, and make it different from the show, but then also a lot of people who don't think Martin will ever actually finish the story...but I think about 99% of people understand that HBO and the show have always known the ending that GRRM gave them, and have always said that the show will end the same as the books for the main characters,

Dude, I am not nearly as long as you on this forum, but have you looked up what is going on in the book-forum? You come to think that you must be in some different universe 

[Tifani]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Who says the show doesn't know how the story will end?  There are a few people who seem to hope that Martin will change his ending, which he might, and make it different from the show, but then also a lot of people who don't think Martin will ever actually finish the story...but I think about 99% of people understand that HBO and the show have always known the ending that GRRM gave them, and have always said that the show will end the same as the books for the main characters,

there are plenty of people who don't think the ending will be the same with all the changes the show has made.

[TheCasualObserver]

1 hour ago, Tifani said:

there are plenty of people who don't think the ending will be the same with all the changes the show has made.

Have you read Martin's original notes to his publisher? They are shockingly different in tone, character and plot. If I recall correctly, Tyrion isn't even a dwarf in the earliest drafts. 

Martin has always said he is a gardener writer. So when someone tells me that he told D and D a rough outline of what would happen at the end in 2010, I'm skeptical how accurate that outline will be by the end, and that's without factoring in the changes made by the show. I don't buy that there is an inviolate checklist of things which are absolutely going to happen at series end without possibility of change or alteration. GURRM simply isn't that kind of writer. Who rules the seven kingdoms (or the collapse of them) might be a fixed point, and avoiding the apocalypse might be another, but I think the rest is relatively flexible. 

[Cas Stark]

He has also I believe said that he has 'always' known the fates of the 5? major characters....for decades.  Of course since I don't think we will ever see a 7th book by GRRM, I don't believe there will even be an opportunity for two endings....but the author says he's known the endings for the major characters for many years and the show says that he told them the endings for the major characters and that they're following his ending.  So, it seems very, very unlikely, even assuming he writes the final book, that the ending will be different.  I feel like this is people's wishful thinking who dislike the show.  I dislike the show immensely, but I don't believe the ending will be different in terms of who is alive or dead and what their futures look like.

[Meera of Tarth]

5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

True, they knew how the main characters would end up before the show began. He gave them the first part and the last part, and they make up filler to bridge what came before and what is to come. He gives them details as he can, and they even use lines from some of the unpublished chapters he shares with them.

This interview is from 2011:

Series executive producers D.B. Weiss attempted to further calm their nerves, telling TVGuide.com, "We've talked through what the final episode, the final season will be." Executive producer David Benioff adds: "We can't wait to write that episode. Of the many different fears we have about the show, long-term momentum is not one of them. We're very confident."...

Fortunately for fans, Martin has been serving as an available advisor for producers, and they say the partnership, however loose, has given them inside knowledge about what lies ahead for Jon Snow, Daenerys and the other denizens of Westeros. "George has proven through the discussions we've had that he's always known in the rough, broad strokes where this is going to end up," Weiss says."And we think it's going to end up in a way that is uniquely satisfying."

http://www.tvguide.com/news/game-thrones-lost-1031645/

Bryan Cogman: And then George reads the outline every year, and gives his notes and thoughts... We've been teeing up stuff all the time, since season one. We've known answers to questions since season one, the fates of certain characters.

http://www.vulture.com/2015/04/game-of-thrones-showrunners-on-changes-from-the-books.html

Yep! They know the ending since the start and it's a pitty that they didn't know more details because the leaks of s7 are very disappointing, especially Cersei's story with Jon and Dany.

[Pink Fat Rast]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

pitty

pittey


Nah sorry bout that, seriously though hasn't anyone said anything about Cersei wanting to use the wights to her advantage thing yet?

I was beginning to fear that it's all gonna be reduced to rallying the unbelievers and curmudgeons against Sauron, but at least some of the interhuman conflict I was hoping for / predicting is gonna make it in there.

I'll be disappointed if it's only gonna be Cersei though, I thought some of the "good guys" should also start trying something like that, to spice things up a bit.


(Also, a wight's body parts are gonna keep moving in front of Cersei? Now I'm retroactively disappointed they didn't have any crawling body parts at Hardhome etc. - that was an awful episode!)

[Liver and Onions]

I wish the show could have ended up like the first animated series of Fullmetal Alchemist- it branches off from the manga somewhere around book 7 and does its own thing, including changing the identities of several villains. The ending was very different from the eventual ending in the manga, but it was still a satisfying story in many respects. And it certainly never felt like it was trying to insult the source material or make the characters act like complete nitwits. Heck, they later made another 52 episode series that was accurate to the comic (which topped out at volume 27.)

[Newstar]

22 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

True, they knew how the main characters would end up before the show began. He gave them the first part and the last part, and they make up filler to bridge what came before and what is to come. 

That's not quite true. He gave them the middle part at the 2013 meeting, or at least all he knew of it at the time, and they didn't have that information until 2013. They decided not to use a lot of it for various reasons (they've been pretty clear about how the sept explosion in Season 6 was their idea and not GRRM's), but he still gave that information to them. They're not flying blind when it comes to non-ending material in TWOW and beyond; they're just deliberately ignoring a lot of what GRRM plans to do and simplifying and streamlining whatever's left. Just by shortening Sansa's Vale arc, killing off Stannis early and cutting out Arianne and Aegon, they've already eliminated a good chunk of TWOW. 

 

18 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

He has also I believe said that he has 'always' known the fates of the 5? major characters....for decades.  

Yes, he has, and he has implied a few times that he intends to stick with that ending no matter what.

 

20 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

Dude, I am not nearly as long as you on this forum, but have you looked up what is going on in the book-forum? You come to think that you must be in some different universe 

I think that if show spoilers were allowed on the book forum, fans would realize that the vast majority of their theories have been ruled out by the show. I'm almost afraid of what happens when the show does end and the ending doesn't match up with what fans had imagined or at least had hoped would happen. It's not going to be pretty.

With that said, even on the show forums, there are a lot of fans who refuse to accept that the show has ruled out their favourite theories even when it's been blatantly spelled out. Denial is a powerful thing.

[Le Cygne]

Well, they were told some things, but then they clearly went in their own direction. The books and show diverged and are different now.

Sansa lost her own story, this convention was AFTER the meeting in Santa Fe in 2013, and they clearly did not do what he told them:

In a convention panel this year, George said on the record that he had no idea what they were doing with Sansa or where they’re taking her storyline, which now makes sense perhaps. He was not pleased when he was talking about it, so who knows what’s going to happen with her! Knowing GRRM, that could mean they’re going off the canon reservation, and/or that they’re going to be making a lot of shit up

https://starkalypse.com/post/87703459951/might-be-useful-to-keep-in-mind

And here they are saying neither he nor they really know the ending, so they show will end differently from the books:

Benioff: Season five is still very much within the books for the most part. The very first scene of the season and the very last scene of the season are book scenes. It’s more season six that’s going to be diverging a bit. We’ve had a lot of conversations with George, and he makes a lot of stuff up as he’s writing it. Even while we talk to him about the ending, it doesn’t mean that that ending that he has currently conceived is going to be the ending when he eventually writes it.

Weiss: It’s like looking at a landscape and saying, “OK, there’s a mountain over there, and I know that I’m getting to that mountain.” There’s an event that’s going to happen, and I know that I’m moving in the general direction of that event, but what’s between where I’m standing now and that thing off on the horizon, I’m not totally sure. I’ll know when I get there, and then I’ll see what the terrain looks like around me and I’ll choose my path once I get closer to it. He figures a lot of this stuff as he goes. He always says he’s a gardener, not an architect.

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-ending-season-5-producers-interview-1201469516/

[Le Cygne]

GRRM talks about it some more here:

Will the show 'spoil' the novels?

Maybe. Yes and no. Look, I never thought the series could possibly catch up with the books, but it has. The show moved faster than I anticipated and I moved more slowly. There were other factors too, but that was the main one. Given where we are, inevitably, there will be certain plot twists and reveals in season six of GAME OF THRONES that have not yet happened in the books. For years my readers have been ahead of the viewers. This year, for some things, the reverse will be true. How you want to handle that... hey, that's up to you.

The case of GAME OF THRONES and A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE is perhaps unique. I can't think of any other instance where the movie or TV show came out as the source material was still being written. So when you ask me, "will the show spoil the books," all I can do is say, "yes and no," and mumble once again about the butterfly effect. Those pretty little butterflies have grown into mighty dragons. Some of the 'spoilers' you may encounter in season six may not be spoilers at all... because the show and the books have diverged, and will continue to do so.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html

[Le Cygne]

And here are the showrunners are only saying "spirit of the books" - they said they are diverging from the books, so the endings can't match:

"We know the end point, and we're hoping that, you know, that end point will be very much in keeping with the spirit of the books."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vcy-EhkHXnE

[Tifani]

20 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

Have you read Martin's original notes to his publisher? They are shockingly different in tone, character and plot. If I recall correctly, Tyrion isn't even a dwarf in the earliest drafts. 

Martin has always said he is a gardener writer. So when someone tells me that he told D and D a rough outline of what would happen at the end in 2010, I'm skeptical how accurate that outline will be by the end, and that's without factoring in the changes made by the show. I don't buy that there is an inviolate checklist of things which are absolutely going to happen at series end without possibility of change or alteration. GURRM simply isn't that kind of writer. Who rules the seven kingdoms (or the collapse of them) might be a fixed point, and avoiding the apocalypse might be another, but I think the rest is relatively flexible. 

i've seen the original outline, but Martin has also always said that he's known the endings for main characters like the starks, lannister siblings, dany, jon since the beginning. and D&D didn't just get a rough outline in 2010 but they also talked in-depth to martin in 2014. and said in a podcast last year that they know a bunch of more shit about the characters from GRRM.

so basically GRRM right now is having trouble getting from Point A to Point B because he made things unnecessarily complicated in AFFC and ADWD (imo). 

the show is getting to those point B's in a much faster way albeit in a lot ways its messy/rushed writing. 

i personally don't care if people on here bash the show and the leaks. i'm not a big fan of the season 7 leaks myself ( they lack closure imo). i only get annoyed when people bash about things that also show a clear misunderstanding of the books. like people thinking that jonerys isn't going to happen in the books lol or that cersei is going to get killed by faegon. 

[Meera of Tarth]

interesting comparison for ranters:

http://winteriscoming.net/2017/04/12/walking-dead-wont-surpass-book-material-like-game-thrones/

[Pink Fat Rast]

32 minutes ago, Tifani said:

like people thinking that jonerys isn't going to happen in the books lol

It'll be an inversion, like "oh no we're siblings what have we d- wait nvm" lol