Most Gothic Character in ASOIAF?

[dsug]

3 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

That's one meaning of hero but I used the word in a different sense in my first post above. Of course, I can see Cersei as the protagonist of a chapter named after her, and I realize that she is a POV character. I can't see her as being endowed with the characteristics of a true hero(ine) and I can't see her story arc as a hero(ine)'s arc though.

yeah she doesn't have traditional heroic qualities, but she performs the functions of a hero in her storyline.

[Julia H.]

28 minutes ago, dsug said:

yeah she doesn't have traditional heroic qualities, but she performs the functions of a hero in her storyline.

Look, I see what you mean - when you say hero, you mean a protagonist. That's fine, but it doesn't mean Cersei is some sort of "non-traditional" hero. She is the protagonist of her storyline (which is quite natural), but at the same time a "villain" in the big story. When I read "a Gothic hero" in the OP, I associated the phrase with hero qualities (rather than just a protagonist), which is why I would have thought of Jamie (who can still turn out to be a hero in the story rather than just the protagonist of his own storyline) much sooner than Cersei. That's what I said in my first post, as it seemed you wanted to know what other forumers thought. If you simply mean a Gothic character (any sort of Gothic character), I can agree with you that Cersei is Gothic enough, as I also said in my first post.    

[dsug]

2 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Look, I see what you mean - when you say hero, you mean a protagonist. That's fine, but it doesn't mean Cersei is some sort of "non-traditional" hero. She is the protagonist of her storyline (which is quite natural), but at the same time a "villain" in the big story. When I read "a Gothic hero" in the OP, I associated the phrase with hero qualities (rather than just a protagonist), which is why I would have thought of Jamie (who can still turn out to be a hero in the story rather than just the protagonist of his own storyline) much sooner than Cersei. That's what I said in my first post, as it seemed you wanted to know what other forumers thought. If you simply mean a Gothic character (any sort of Gothic character), I can agree with you that Cersei is Gothic enough, as I also said in my first post.    

uh i am confused by the tension i just thought we were discussing but ok

[LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger]

On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 8:30 AM, estermonty python said:

I mean...Jon Snow is the most gothic character in literature since Heathcliff.  Is this really a debate?

I always thought that was Darkstar.  How is that even a debate?

[estermonty python]

10 minutes ago, LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger said:

I always thought that was Darkstar.  How is that even a debate?

He's not as depressive as Jon though...

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

On 12/19/2016 at 8:59 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

foreshadowed to be doomed from the beginning; 

This always seemed awfully dark about Arya's future.

strong physical presence; Strong because of her *power* with a weapon and as an assassin in training.

flaws, vices, self-destructiveness; The fact that she is haunted from the past to the point that she endangers herself is self destructive. Other characters are also haunted by the past but they don't endanger themselves because of that.
 

While not sexualized directly, Arya is often compared to Lyanna who was beautiful and desired.  This could be interpreted as a clue that Adult Arya will fit the sexual motif.  

Also, of course Jon will fit the Gothic moit considering his parents, R+L=J.  Any child of Rhaegar will inherit his Gothic style.

[Orphalesion]

On 19/12/2016 at 3:30 PM, estermonty python said:

I mean...Jon Snow is the most gothic character in literature since Heathcliff.  Is this really a debate?

 

9 hours ago, estermonty python said:

He's not as depressive as Jon though...

This makes me wonder whether you have even read Wuthering Heights and what definition of "Gothic" you are working of....

A "Gothic" character, in the literary sense, has nothing to do with being depressed, wearing black or the modern "Goth" subculture in its various forms or permutations.

Plus Heathcliff imho, isn't as much "depressed" as "obsessed"  (he only really gets mopey at the very end, when it turns out his lifelong scheme of revenge was all for naught) which IS a trait of a Gothic character. However Jon and Heathcliff have nothing in common. The character who is mos alike to Heathcliff in ASoIaF  is actually Littlefinger.

Both pretty low on the social hierarchy, both in love with a daughter of the family they grew up with, both eventually scorned and disappear from the lives of the girls they claim to love, only to reappear years later with fabulous wealth,  their love turned to obsession and with some mad scheme to take destructive revenge on....pretty much everything and everyone. Some details might be different, but they are remarkably similar. Litlefinger definitely does have a "darkly sexual" presence. Like with Heathcliff the acquisition of his wealt, along with his ability to manipulate people and his cunning, can be counted as supernatural traits. And if we believe the prophecy of the maiden defeating the giant of snow, he might also already be doomed.

I'd argue that Lysa also very well represents the themes of madness and insanity that permeate Gothic literature. That woman is nuts and is a hugely destructive force. She is also definitely a strong, physical presence. With all that reference to her reeking of spoiled milk and the attention that is drawn to her breasts she is also all over the mixture of sexuality and revulsion that is part of Gothic literature (Go read Wuthering Heights and tell me you weren't repulsed by Cathy at least once during the narrative) She is also haunted by the past and her dead baby (the only one she ver had with a man she loved) and from her very first action in the plot orchestrated her own downfall.

Jon, as of yet imho lacks the destructive, obsessive mindset of a Gothic character. We'd hear waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more about his overflowing feelings concerning Ned's and Yigritte's deaths if he was one. 

And let's not forget that "engaging the supernatural" is a basic part of the hero's journey.

I agree that Cersei and Jaime are talso very  classically 'Gothic" characters. Each with their obsessions, destructive behavior towards self and others (Jaime's every action from RR to his imprisonment was self-destructive, as was every action of Cersei from the moment she heard that prophecy) Both have supernatural elements about them (Quyburn, prophecies, Jaime's dream of Joannal imho that dream is one of the most "Gothic" scenes in all of ASoIaF) They are both haunted by the past, both are very sexual characters. Both have a strong physical presence due to their beauty and charisma this point in relation to Gothic literature has nothing to do with physical strenght, but with a character's presence, and Jaime and Cersei both are the sort of people that draw others' attention to themselves when they enter a room. And both are extremely passionate and are slaves to their emotions.

Also agree with Ramsay being a classical Gothic character, his overall almost perplexing brutality and cruelty, snow-like eyes and the sheer dominance and (from the perspective of his victims) power he displays are more than enough to fill even the "supernatural" category.  

Cersei, Lysa, Jaime, Littlefinger and Ramsay are good representations of the female and male Gothic central character/villain protagonist (think Dracula, Carmilla, Ayesha, Cathy Earnshaw, Heathcliff, Dorain Grey etc)

However the Gothic "hero" and "heroine" are very different creatures and I'm not sure if straight examples of that trope exist in ASoiaF.

Basically the Gothic heroine is a paragon of virtue, femininity and innocence who exists to be menaced and tempted by the Gothic character (remember olden times had all that "Madonna and Whore" complex going on)

The Gothic hero meanwhile is the paragon of virtue and righteousness who exist to vanquish the immoral Gothic menace and rescue the ingenue. They were literary devices so that all those Regency and Victorian writers and readers could claim they enjoy those stories for the triumph of good over evil rather for the dark sexyness. In better works those tropes were subverted and some don't have them at all.  

If we'd go strictly by the textbook definition then Sansa would be the closest to a classical "Gothic heroine", since the very start of the story she has done nothing but passed from one situation where she is tempted/menaced by immoral people to the next. It however remains to be seen whether she will remain an ingenue or whether she will grow into something more, I'd say she is already growing into something more, just like Jaime is now more than simply the Gothic male.

 As to a "Gothic hero" in the story; here I'd say Jon Snow fits, especially if he turns out to be the chief commander of the war against the White Walkers. In addition to that the Gothic hero sometimes suffers from mistaken identity and finally turns out to have been born into a position of wealth and importance, which fits with Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar's son. 

Arya... I'm not sure Arya fits into a category of Gothic characters, sure she is obsessed with revenge, haunted by her father's death and pretty self destructive....

However I would not call her "passionate" , I'd argue she is often rather cold, except for her thirst for vengeance, I'd argue she doesn't have the strong physical presence (again, physical strenght has nothing to do with that) and, by virtue of being a young girl she is exempt form having any sort of dark or positive sexuality about her. 

In addition Gothic literature is ridiculously sexist by modern standards, male characters tend to be very manly, female characters tend to be very feminine, the only one who is allowed to bend those rules is the villain/monster and it's always part of why they must be destroyed and often is an expression of repressed homosexual desires. A character like Arya who defies gender conventions and is a child, and thus still asexual, does not exactly fit into classical Gothic literature. Arya is of a more modern "dark fantasy" stock and/or a deconstruction of the standard rebellious princess of lesser fantasy literature.

2 minutes ago, Yet Another Stark Fan said:

While not sexualized directly, Arya is often compared to Lyanna who was beautiful and desired.  This could be interpreted as a clue that Adult Arya will fit the sexual motif.  

Also, of course Jon will fit the Gothic moit considering his parents, R+L=J.  Any child of Rhaegar will inherit his Gothic style.

But that's the thing, Gothic literature is an extremely sexual genre, it's not enough to be called "beautiful". She's not innocent, feminine and passive enough to be the Madonna and she lacks the sexuality to be the Whore, thus Gothic literature would not know what do do with her.

[shizett]

Would Dany and Viserys fit?

On 19/12/2016 at 8:39 AM, dsug said:

• Wealthy, high rank in society
• foreshadowed to be doomed from the beginning
• haunted by the past
• strong physical presence
• strong sexual element
• association with the supernatural
• driven by passion
• flaws, vices, self-destructiveness

Dany:

• Targ princess.
• She is not doomed from the beginning.
• Haunted by her past (the red door)
• Very very beautiful
• Very sexual (Drogo, Dario, even her handmaidens)
• Dragons!
• Very passionate (Her son, slaves)
• I am not sure if she is self-destructive

Viserys:

• Targ Prince and rightful King
• He was doomed from the first time we met him
• Haunted by his past (ideals of grandeur and becoming a king as a right)
• Gaunt and very pale
• Not very sexual
• Dragons  
• Very passionate
• His obsession with SK was his downfall

[The Marquis de Leech]

My immediate thought on seeing the thread was Shireen. Dragonstone is the most Gothic place in Westeros, bar none, while Shireen herself is a deformed only child, last of her House, and is kept company by a mad fool.

[Orphalesion]

59 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

My immediate thought on seeing the thread was Shireen. Dragonstone is the most Gothic place in Westeros, bar none, while Shireen herself is a deformed only child, last of her House, and is kept company by a mad fool.

Harrenhall? Pyke? (and to a lesser extend) the Eyrie? The Wall itself also has Gothic elements as well as Dark Romanticism.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

On 20/12/2016 at 6:06 AM, The Wolves said:

Bloodraven and House Blackwood is the most Gothic house in the story. 

It is known.

[Nevets]

From what I can tell, it seems that Jaime and Jon fit the mold of Gothic heroes the closest.  They're a bit on the melancholy side, have self-destructive tendencies, and appear to be doomed.

For Gothic heroines, I would pick Sansa as the stereotypical damsel, with Littlefinger as the villain of the piece.  However, in this case, I think Sansa will do her own rescuing.

Trying to find a Gothic character is a bit difficult because ASOIAF isn't really that kind of story.

[The Marquis de Leech]

11 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Harrenhall? Pyke? (and to a lesser extend) the Eyrie? The Wall itself also has Gothic elements as well as Dark Romanticism.

Dragonstone has the gargoyles, to go with the isolation and the stormy sea. Oh, and there's the religious/mystical element too, to go with the sense of paranoia and madness.

[Orphalesion]

4 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Dragonstone has the gargoyles, to go with the isolation and the stormy sea. Oh, and there's the religious/mystical element too, to go with the sense of paranoia and madness.

Not saying that Dragonstone ain't Gothic, just saying that I am not sure about it being the most Gothic place beyond others.

Harrenhall: is a mostly ruined, impossibly vast structure from an earlier time, it's foreboding and and inside those ruins it is pretty easy to feel isolated, melancholy and to experience the weight of its dark history (no matter how large your household, you cannot make this place seem alive and wipe away the death and decay that permeates the place). In addition there's a (real or imagined) curse over the place that ends every family line that takes up residence. When we encounter it in the text it is in possession of people who like to torture their prisoners.

Pyke: Stormy sea, eroded geography, dramatic towers and bridges. When we first visit it, it's inhabited by a bitter old men obsessed with undoing the mistakes of his past. Plus the scene when Balon meets his demise. Now it is in possession of a darkly charismatic mystery man with ties to black magic and dangerous knowledge.  

The Eyrie: Tall, dramatic towers isolated way up high on a mountain, making them difficult to reach (and leave). It's immediate surroundings feature a waterfall that never reaches the valley below and is tied to the tale of a woman who saw her whole family butchered. Also features a rather brutal form of execution to be administered directly from the castle's main hall, madness inducing Sky Cells and an overall austere atmosphere.The whole thing is ruled over by a unstable madwoman and her (quite possibly also mentally ill) young son who apparently enjoys to execute people.    

The Wall is situated in most unforgiving, depressing, loneliest place in all of Westeros, its built as a bastion that seperates civilization from the realm of magic and wilderness. The supernatural keeps growing stronger at the Wall the further we move along in the story, including the dead coming back to life, giants and skinchangers. There is a dark history involving the reign of a guy called the "Night's King" who was married to a, possibly, supernatural creature and right now there's an exotic, and fanatic, priestess at the Wall (moved there from Dragonstone) who performs rites many would describe as very, very sinister, possibly  gearing up to sacrifice a baby. Plus (if Jon's dead) there's an impending resurrection at this place. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Eddard fits most of this criteria right? I guess he has no sexual presence and I think he has only one vice, honor! His honor is his vice that kills him though. Just my thought. He was certainly doomed from like the very very beginning. 

[dsug]

7 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Not saying that Dragonstone ain't Gothic, just saying that I am not sure about it being the most Gothic place beyond others.

Harrenhall: is a mostly ruined, impossibly vast structure from an earlier time, it's foreboding and and inside those ruins it is pretty easy to feel isolated, melancholy and to experience the weight of its dark history (no matter how large your household, you cannot make this place seem alive and wipe away the death and decay that permeates the place). In addition there's a (real or imagined) curse over the place that ends every family line that takes up residence. When we encounter it in the text it is in possession of people who like to torture their prisoners.

Pyke: Stormy sea, eroded geography, dramatic towers and bridges. When we first visit it, it's inhabited by a bitter old men obsessed with undoing the mistakes of his past. Plus the scene when Balon meets his demise. Now it is in possession of a darkly charismatic mystery man with ties to black magic and dangerous knowledge.  

The Eyrie: Tall, dramatic towers isolated way up high on a mountain, making them difficult to reach (and leave). It's immediate surroundings feature a waterfall that never reaches the valley below and is tied to the tale of a woman who saw her whole family butchered. Also features a rather brutal form of execution to be administered directly from the castle's main hall, madness inducing Sky Cells and an overall austere atmosphere.The whole thing is ruled over by a unstable madwoman and her (quite possibly also mentally ill) young son who apparently enjoys to execute people.    

The Wall is situated in most unforgiving, depressing, loneliest place in all of Westeros, its built as a bastion that seperates civilization from the realm of magic and wilderness. The supernatural keeps growing stronger at the Wall the further we move along in the story, including the dead coming back to life, giants and skinchangers. There is a dark history involving the reign of a guy called the "Night's King" who was married to a, possibly, supernatural creature and right now there's an exotic, and fanatic, priestess at the Wall (moved there from Dragonstone) who performs rites many would describe as very, very sinister, possibly  gearing up to sacrifice a baby. Plus (if Jon's dead) there's an impending resurrection at this place. 

The Red Keep could pretty Gothic too. Besides the centuries of malicious plotting and murder that have taken place inside, the castle itself seems pretty creepy. There are unknown depths of secret passages behind the walls. The skulls of dragons littering the cellars. The black cells, Qyburn's lab. I wouldn't wanna get lost in there. 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

1 hour ago, dsug said:

The Red Keep could pretty Gothic too. Besides the centuries of malicious plotting and murder that have taken place inside, the castle itself seems pretty creepy. There are unknown depths of secret passages behind the walls. The skulls of dragons littering the cellars. The black cells, Qyburn's lab. I wouldn't wanna get lost in there. 

There is also the creepiness of blood spilled for its construction, ie the workers that Maegor had killed so that they don't reveal its secret passageways.

I italicized the blood spilled... because it's a recurring element in litterature for places -especially castles- that are written to give a creepy feeling. Same holds for Harrenhal, as Catelyn describes (thousands of captives from the other realms died in the quarries chained to sledges or laboring on the five huge towers) and, in a way, for the Wall (the story of the seventy-nine sentinels that were immured as a punishement in eternity).

 

ETA, for Harrenhal there's also the adjacent island of legends, that no man can reach.

[MaybeINeverSawACamel]

You could say Jon's near obsession with Arya has lead to his demise.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

I read "Gothic" as "black makeup and hair dye, tripp pant, etc." and was going to say Ramsay but alas looks like I'm in the wrong thread.

[Orphalesion]

16 hours ago, dsug said:

The Red Keep could pretty Gothic too. Besides the centuries of malicious plotting and murder that have taken place inside, the castle itself seems pretty creepy. There are unknown depths of secret passages behind the walls. The skulls of dragons littering the cellars. The black cells, Qyburn's lab. I wouldn't wanna get lost in there. 

 

14 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

There is also the creepiness of blood spilled for its construction, ie the workers that Maegor had killed so that they don't reveal its secret passageways.

I italicized the blood spilled... because it's a recurring element in litterature for places -especially castles- that are written to give a creepy feeling. Same holds for Harrenhal, as Catelyn describes (thousands of captives from the other realms died in the quarries chained to sledges or laboring on the five huge towers) and, in a way, for the Wall (the story of the seventy-nine sentinels that were immured as a punishement in eternity).

 

ETA, for Harrenhal there's also the adjacent island of legends, that no man can reach.

Ah! Very true! The show with all the Mediterranean sunshine and lavender shrubs has kinda ruined the Red Keep as a "foreboding" structure for me :-P 

13 hours ago, MaybeINeverSawACamel said:

You could say Jon's near obsession with Arya has lead to his demise.

I wouldn't call "I want to save my sister from a crazy torture rapist" an "obsession", plus Jon hasn't met his "demise" yet ;-)