Lord Varys Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 9 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said: I actually made a (now closed) thread about this a while back. Can you point me to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grey Wolf Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 On 12/30/2016 at 8:55 PM, Lord of Raventree Hall said: I love the books, and so I have few complaints, but any sex scenes would have been my first fight (with the possible exceptions of Cat and Ned and Jon and Ygritte). I just do not think GRRM is very good at writing sex scenes, even if the rest of the writing is brilliant. yeah, first time I read the line "fat pink mast" I really needed to put the book down and walk away for a while. Same with Tyrion's "bulbous purple head" and Cersei's "Myrrish Swamp" (that was particularly gross...he might as well just said it sounded like stirring macaroni and cheese). The sex scenes in general are not well written which is a shame because they are actually well placed. It is odd how a man who writes so wonderfully and so descriptively can drop the ball on sex so frequently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maudisdottir Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 To be fair though, I don't think we're supposed to get all hot and bothered over Tyrion or Sam sex scenes. Fat pink mast, while ridiculous, is probably pretty accurate and the Sam and Gilly scene was never going to be erotic. Same with Tyrion. He doesn't write sex scenes particularly well, but a lot of authors struggle to make them not sound corny or unintentionally hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 My only source of impatience: too much Essos, not enough Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotting sea cow Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 35 minutes ago, Seams said: My only source of impatience: too much Essos, not enough Westeros. I actually feel the opposite. I find Essos way more interesting than Westeros and sometimes I think GRRM didn't invest enough time to create a more complex plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Raventree Hall Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 On 1/4/2017 at 6:15 AM, YOVMO said: yeah, first time I read the line "fat pink mast" I really needed to put the book down and walk away for a while. Same with Tyrion's "bulbous purple head" and Cersei's "Myrrish Swamp" (that was particularly gross...he might as well just said it sounded like stirring macaroni and cheese). The sex scenes in general are not well written which is a shame because they are actually well placed. It is odd how a man who writes so wonderfully and so descriptively can drop the ball on sex so frequently. On 1/4/2017 at 6:45 AM, maudisdottir said: To be fair though, I don't think we're supposed to get all hot and bothered over Tyrion or Sam sex scenes. Fat pink mast, while ridiculous, is probably pretty accurate and the Sam and Gilly scene was never going to be erotic. Same with Tyrion. He doesn't write sex scenes particularly well, but a lot of authors struggle to make them not sound corny or unintentionally hilarious. Yeah, I think well written sex scenes requires a specific skill set unrelated to other styles of writing. I have read very few books with well written ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOVMO Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said: Yeah, I think well written sex scenes requires a specific skill set unrelated to other styles of writing. I have read very few books with well written ones. Agreed and I would never put down grrm for writing then poorly but if the question is "what stands out as bad in an otherwise phenomenal series" myrrish swamp is up there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 On 31/12/2016 at 3:00 PM, rotting sea cow said: My main conflict with the book is that it's has too much focus on the nobility. For a book which is overt about social issues I find this unbearable. With the exception of Davos and few Prologue/Epilogue chapters. there no PoV who doesn't belong to the aristocracy. I also find the whole 'House' issues actually boring and I haven't even bother to give a look to the Appendices describing the family trees. I agree it does seem odd for a writer who seems so socially conscious to have such a predominance of aristocratic characters. However, one thing I’d say is I really hate is attempts to crowbar lower class characters into stories in order to give the impression of social conscience, it often comes across as hamfisted and a little patronising. It can be done of course, but shouldn’t be done for its own sake. The way that the lower classes are viewed by different POVs in the books is actually, I think, more instructive than simply parachuting in a lower class POV. For example, Arya’s witnessing of the war in the Riverlands, her interactions with Gendry, and her experiences with the Brotherhood, are all the more impactful because the reader is getting the reveal at the same time as her. Jon’s realisation that he’s actually privileged (which is a big coming of age moment for him), also has the benefit of hitting the reader the same moment it does Jon. Similarly, the witnessing of the plight of the poor in Kings Landing from the ivory tower of the Red Keep through Tyrion’s eyes is very instructive. Often, you can get a lot of social realism by just analysing the attitudes and actions of the upper classes towards the lower, if you see what I mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 4 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said: Yeah, I think well written sex scenes requires a specific skill set unrelated to other styles of writing. I have read very few books with well written ones. Agreed, and books with good sex aren't ever very good in the non-sexual-territory. (Erica Jong...) Sam & Gilly are just plain grossing me out, but I can overlook gross sex. What I can't overlook is: grease running down folks chin's. Firstly it happens way to often, secondly it happens to Sansa - while WE KNOW she always eats in "delicate nibbles"... Me and my books aren't quite over this yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fresh PtwP Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 The Black gate talking was the first thing that came to mind...i mean...really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotting sea cow Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 6 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: I agree it does seem odd for a writer who seems so socially conscious to have such a predominance of aristocratic characters. However, one thing I’d say is I really hate is attempts to crowbar lower class characters into stories in order to give the impression of social conscience, it often comes across as hamfisted and a little patronising. It can be done of course, but shouldn’t be done for its own sake. The way that the lower classes are viewed by different POVs in the books is actually, I think, more instructive than simply parachuting in a lower class POV. For example, Arya’s witnessing of the war in the Riverlands, her interactions with Gendry, and her experiences with the Brotherhood, are all the more impactful because the reader is getting the reveal at the same time as her. Jon’s realisation that he’s actually privileged (which is a big coming of age moment for him), also has the benefit of hitting the reader the same moment it does Jon. Similarly, the witnessing of the plight of the poor in Kings Landing from the ivory tower of the Red Keep through Tyrion’s eyes is very instructive. I'd hate it too. The thing is there is enough narrative space in the books to have these kind of characters. In the end GRRM was able to do successfully with women and children, something that I appreciate. Before these series I read 'The Sarantine Mosaic' of Guy Gavriel Kay. Really good books, with less puzzles than asoiaf but also filled with substantial philosophical conundrums. Strongly based on the Byzantine empire of Justinian and gives a nice glimpse of the workings of the society of that time. Well the protagonist is a mosaicist. There is also physician taking an important role as well as slaves and soldiers. If not truly realistic, it has a good effect. 6 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: Often, you can get a lot of social realism by just analysing the attitudes and actions of the upper classes towards the lower, if you see what I mean? Of course! A good writer can have a story about a peanut with more social conscience than another depicting the only peasants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotting sea cow Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 7 hours ago, Sigella said: Sam & Gilly are just plain grossing me out, but I can overlook gross sex. Well, there is here a fantastic post about that scene. 7 hours ago, Sigella said: What I can't overlook is: grease running down folks chin's. Firstly it happens way to often, secondly it happens to Sansa - while WE KNOW she always eats in "delicate nibbles"... Me and my books aren't quite over this yet. I started a thread about the tongue biting, which also happens way too often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Oaken Knight Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 The first time I read the books I really didn't get on with Daenerys's storyline in Mereen and the whole Slaver's Bay arc. Having done a 2016 re-read of the entire series, I hadn't remembered most of what happened there, but I found it much more interesting this time around and enjoyed it as I took time to read about the separate factions and characters. I'd go so far as to say that no single storyline in the entire series bothered me on my re-read. The only thing that comes close I guess is that as a big Renly fan, it upsets me how quickly he goes from likely candidate for the IT to dead (and Cortnay along with him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Agency of Sansa Stark Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Right around the time Jon Snow murdered Janos Slynt, premeditatedly, in cold blood-- I almost put the books down forever. Took me months to start reading again, but come to think of it that's the only time I had a real problem with the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotting sea cow Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 11 minutes ago, The Agency of Sansa Stark said: Right around the time Jon Snow murdered Janos Slynt, premeditatedly, in cold blood-- I almost put the books down forever. Really? The Black Watch is military organization and Slynt is disobeying a legitimate order of his commander, what else Jon could do? What do you think it would happen in your military if you do the same? Nowadays you will not get the chopper block, but you will be tossed in a cell and promptly discharged and in the war theater you will face military court and maybe put in the firing line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I had trouble reading all the books, but it was something that I appreciated. I think George is a modest and somewhat inconsistent prose writer, and in chapters whose protagonist lacks major complications (such as those of Areo and Vic), the simplicity of the narrative and the prose charge an intensely annoying redundancy - at times. However, I managed to connect with those parts that George did very well, such as those of broken men, Weddings, some chapters of Jaime's journey in the Riverlands. The world-building is very appealing as well and it certainly draws your attention to the context. As I said, I consider George a fickle prose writer, so the narration that covers 5 books is an authentic rollercoaster ride, with its ups and downs, but at the end of the day, is what makes me like the series so much. George provokes in the reader the unhealthy curiosity of wanting to continue reading. And I have harbored the idea that inconsistent writers are the most human of all, or at least the most entertaining to read and / or absorbing, rather than those who develop blocks of perfection and literary grandeur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Raventree Hall Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 On 1/1/2017 at 0:00 AM, rotting sea cow said: My main conflict with the book is that it's has too much focus on the nobility. For a book which is overt about social issues I find this unbearable. With the exception of Davos and few Prologue/Epilogue chapters. there no PoV who doesn't belong to the aristocracy. I also find the whole 'House' issues actually boring and I haven't even bother to give a look to the Appendices describing the family trees. I think GRRM actually responded to this. He said something like he wouldn't be able to tell much of a story from the perspective of, say, a peasant that never leaves their small town. Whether I am just imagining it or he actually said it, I see his point. However, I have always thought having a few more non-aristocratic characters would be good. Another one I thought of that exists is Areo. I am fairly sure he is not considered aristocratic. Anyways, I would love a Dothraki (say Irri or Jhogo) or Ghiscari (Skahaz?) or ex-slave (Missandei, Grey Worm, any of the leaders of the freemen companies under Dany) POV! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotting sea cow Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 8 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said: I think GRRM actually responded to this. He said something like he wouldn't be able to tell much of a story from the perspective of, say, a peasant that never leaves their small town. Whether I am just imagining it or he actually said it, I see his point. However, I have always thought having a few more non-aristocratic characters would be good. Another one I thought of that exists is Areo. I am fairly sure he is not considered aristocratic. Anyways, I would love a Dothraki (say Irri or Jhogo) or Ghiscari (Skahaz?) or ex-slave (Missandei, Grey Worm, any of the leaders of the freemen companies under Dany) POV! Of course a peasant that never leaves his town and do nothing is unlikely to be interesting. A farmer whose family was killed and later joined the tBwB may be certainly more appealing. The thing is that even in the middle ages there were non nobles that took important roles, from soldiers to merchants, from scholars to priests, etc. Areo Hotah is certainly a non aristocratic PoV, however his role is little more than a webcam to Prince Doran. Missandei would have certainly been an excellent PoV, even better than Barristan on Slaver Bay. I think the blame falls on GRRM familiarity with certain literature. A similar situation occurs with the plots in Essos. Despite making an excellent scenography, the plots involving non-westerosi are rather clumsy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbono Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 My biggest problem was the birth of the shadow babies by Melisandre. I mean they seemed way to strong and we never got to know the "rules" how to create/controll them... I dont mind the magic in the story but whenever it gets too magical i have my problems, also the whole glamour thing (rattleshirt/mance) seemed kinda strong, why not just use it to assasinate your enemies with someone they think they know... Well maybe im just a Maester after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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