If Stannis took the blackwater would the war be over?

[Stormking902]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That does not seem like something Stannis would do, make Renly's lover King or allow his heir to be known as a Tyrell. Nor does Loras seem inclined to partner up with Stannis after Renly's death. 

 

What confession? She did not confess to the High Sparrow under severe duress, what makes you think she would so to Stannis?

Can you come up with any examples of female royalty being tortured in medieval times and then them being paraded around and confessing?

Torture as way of a confession was OK for people of lesser birth, people no one cared about. A Queen and a daughter of the Warden of the West is another matter entirely. 

And it strikes me as something Stannis would never do, he'd certainly execute her for her crime with or without a confession but he would never force a confession out from her under torture and then parade to the world his handy work. 

No Stannis would never do that, just use black magic to assasinate his only remaining brother, use pirates and sell swords to further his ambition, and burn people alive to a god he doesnt truly 100 percent believe in or even like. Tourturing Cersie fn Lannister tho is just not in his nature.

[Boarsbane]

17 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Westeros is a medieval continent, and torture is a legit way to extract confessions. See what Cersei did to Blue Bard and how the Faith of the Seven have their confessions.

 

His reaction about Shireen marrying Sweetrobin was because the boy was a sick weakling. The Tyrells are better people so to speak.

For lowborn people it is, if you think Tywin is going to accept his grandchildren are bastards because Stannis tortured his daughter to make her confess then I don't think you know the character very well. Even if Mace believes it, it doesn't matter either way because whoever Mace supports is likely to win and Tywin is a lot more agreeable to him than Stannis.

No the Tyrells are worse people as far as Stannis is concerned because they fought against him and nearly killed him and then to top it off they were the major power behind crowning his younger brother.

[The Hoare]

17 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not to a person of Cersei's standing. Look at Anne Boelyn,  her brother George and (iirc) Thomas Wyatt, because of their status they were not tortured while the others, of less birth or status, were. 

Stannis could torture Cersei but that certainly would not be accepted amongst the nobility of Westeros as something done to a sitting Queen.

 

The High Sparrow didn't cared about her status, Stannis probably wouldn't care either.

After she confess the adultery and incest the nobility would never speak a word in her favor. Adultery is already a horrible crime, incest is even worse, and no one in the Seven Kingdoms would risk their own status protecting such scum. 

 

Anyway, why you think the nobility wouldn't accept it? Confession is a confession

[Coolbeard the Exile]

6 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

No Stannis would never do that, just use black magic to assasinate his only remaining brother, use pirates and sell swords to further his ambition, and burn people alive to a god he doesnt truly 100 percent believe in or even like. Tourturing Cersie fn Lannister tho is just not in his nature.

Dude Stannis wouldn't torture a woman he is the Mannis. The Mannis is above that!

[Aedam Targaryen]

52 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Dude Stannis wouldn't torture a woman he is the Mannis. The Mannis is above that!

Ha! Yea, Stannis only acts by his strict code of ethics, nobility, and honor... except when he doesn't.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

50 minutes ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

Ha! Yea, Stannis only acts by his strict code of ethics, nobility, and honor... except when he doesn't.

My man Mannis wouldn't toruture a woman.

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, The Hoare said:

The High Sparrow didn't cared about her status, Stannis probably wouldn't care either.

Yes he did. Look at the difference between the physical torture the lowborn Osney gets straight away from the Sparrow compared to the long term psychological torture that Cersei gets. 

There are rules which both Stannis and the High Sparrow would adhere to when faced with high nobility. 

4 hours ago, The Hoare said:

 

 

Anyway, why you think the nobility wouldn't accept it? Confession is a confession

 

She didnt confess to the High Sparrow despite being his 'guest' for some time, what makes you think she would confess to Stannis in a much shorter time. 

 

Confessing means her and her children's death. She is unlikely to do that without extreme force and the nobility would need to hear her say it, something that immediately looks like BS is she is badly hurt. 

[The Hoare]

12 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes he did. Look at the difference between the physical torture the lowborn Osney gets straight away from the Sparrow compared to the long term psychological torture that Cersei gets. 

There are rules which both Stannis and the High Sparrow would adhere to when faced with high nobility. 

 

She didnt confess to the High Sparrow despite being his 'guest' for some time, what makes you think she would confess to Stannis in a much shorter time. 

 

Confessing means her and her children's death. She is unlikely to do that without extreme force and the nobility would need to hear her say it, something that immediately looks like BS is she is badly hurt. 

There are rules, but not for traitors acused of adultery and incest. Stannis just need her to confess in public, not extract informations. Plus, nobody need to know that he tortured her.

HS probably didn't went too far because he didn't wanted permanent broke ties with the crown.

 

Cersei would die confessing or not, but perharps the life of her bastards could be spared if she confessed.

[Bernie Mac]

9 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

There are rules, but not for traitors acused of adultery and incest.

Yeah, there are. That is why neither Anne Boelyn or Catherine Howard were tortured by Henry while their low born lovers were. 

Same for Aegon IV who could not torture his wife despite accusing her of cuckolding. 

9 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

 

Stannis just need her to confess in public, not extract informations. Plus, nobody need to know that he tortured her.

And how doe he do that in the limited time frame he has when the High Sparrow could not get a confession?

The type of torture that would extract a confession is the type off torture that is going to be noticeable to the lords Cersei needs to publicly tell 

9 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

HS probably didn't went too far because he didn't wanted permanent broke ties with the crown.

He didnt go to far because their are rules, rules that men like Stannis and the High Sparrow would obey. 

9 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

 

Cersei would die confessing or not, but perharps the life of her bastards could be spared if she confessed.

You seem to adding a lot of variables to an already unlikely scenario. 

Why would Cersei confess as it would mean her death and her children's. Stannis has neither Tommen or Myrcella and he would need to kill Joffrey regardless of Cersei's confession. 

 

This idea that Stannis would break the accepted medieval laws in regards to nobility is crazy and not something that Stannis ever suggests in the books. He automatically thinks his word is good enough.

[Trigger Warning]

If a Tyrell married Shireen they would take the Baratheon name, Shireen is Stannis' heir not whoever her husband ends up being and if they don't take the name their child still will. Names are important. 

A marriage alliance with Stannis isn't better regardless because it's still Stannis. They have more to gain through Tywin and Tywin has a claimant whose claim trumps Stannis' claim as far as most people are concerned. Mace choosing Shireen over Tommen is barely even a choice. 

[The Hoare]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah, there are. That is why neither Anne Boelyn or Catherine Howard were tortured by Henry while their low born lovers were. 

Same for Aegon IV who could not torture his wife despite accusing her of cuckolding. 

And how doe he do that in the limited time frame he has when the High Sparrow could not get a confession?

The type of torture that would extract a confession is the type off torture that is going to be noticeable to the lords Cersei needs to publicly tell 

He didnt go to far because their are rules, rules that men like Stannis and the High Sparrow would obey. 

You seem to adding a lot of variables to an already unlikely scenario. 

Why would Cersei confess as it would mean her death and her children's. Stannis has neither Tommen or Myrcella and he would need to kill Joffrey regardless of Cersei's confession. 

 

This idea that Stannis would break the accepted medieval laws in regards to nobility is crazy and not something that Stannis ever suggests in the books. He automatically thinks his word is good enough.

1. Anne wasn't torture, but some other nobles in history were. Machiavelli is one example, they tortured him for one week and his supposed crimes weren't as vile as Cersei's crimes.

Aegon IV never oficially declared it. It was only sugestions.

 

2. Whips, cut her breasts, extract some teeths(the molars), there are many options. Not visible to the public.

 

3.It only means her children death if Stannis said so. A confession would disinherit her children and the murder would not be necessary.

He could just lie promising mercy and them cut Joffrey's head too.

[Wrl6199]

4 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

1. Anne wasn't torture, but some other nobles in history were. Machiavelli is one example, they tortured him for one week and his supposed crimes weren't as vile as Cersei's crimes.

Aegon IV never oficially declared it. It was only sugestions.

 

2. Whips, cut her breasts, extract some teeths(the molars), there are many options. Not visible to the public.

 

3.It only means her children death if Stannis said so. A confession would disinherit her children and the murder would not be necessary.

He could just lie promising mercy and them cut Joffrey's head too.

Anne who?

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, The Hoare said:

1. Anne wasn't torture, but some other nobles in history were. Machiavelli is one example, they tortured him for one week and his supposed crimes weren't as vile as Cersei's crimes.

Machiavelli was believed to have descended from nobility but he himself was not nobility, he was not even recognised as a true Florentine citizen. 

Cersie is the Queen of Westeros, like Anne Boelyn, her brother and Thomas Wyatt or even later Catherine Howard, her social rank would mean she would not be tortured in such a way that people of lesser birth were. 

Others, of lesser birth, would certainly be tortured to get confessions against the two Queens but the Queens would not. 

 

2 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Aegon IV never oficially declared it. It was only sugestions.

Nether did Robert.

 

2 hours ago, The Hoare said:

 

2. Whips, cut her breasts, extract some teeths(the molars), there are many options. Not visible to the public.

When has Stannis ever suggested doing something like this to female nobility?

 

2 hours ago, The Hoare said:

3.It only means her children death if Stannis said so. A confession would disinherit her children and the murder would not be necessary.

No. their life would be forfeit. By refusing to admit the truth the worst that Stannis can do is execute Cersei, by admitting the truth she dooms them as well. 

 

 

2 hours ago, The Hoare said:

He could just lie promising mercy and them cut Joffrey's head too.

Are we still talking about Stannis here?

How much time do you think he has with an Tyrell and Lannister army outside?

[Drogonthedread]

To those who say stannis will make cersei confess..cersei wouldn't give that chance to stannis and she will end her life before he can reach her ..

To those who say stannis will not torture women ...yes he will not but he has Clayton Suggs for it 

[The Hoare]

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Machiavelli was believed to have descended from nobility but he himself was not nobility, he was not even recognised as a true Florentine citizen. 

Cersie is the Queen of Westeros, like Anne Boelyn, her brother and Thomas Wyatt or even later Catherine Howard, her social rank would mean she would not be tortured in such a way that people of lesser birth were. 

Others, of lesser birth, would certainly be tortured to get confessions against the two Queens but the Queens would not. 

 

Nether did Robert.

 

When has Stannis ever suggested doing something like this to female nobility?

 

No. their life would be forfeit. By refusing to admit the truth the worst that Stannis can do is execute Cersei, by admitting the truth she dooms them as well. 

 

 

Are we still talking about Stannis here?

How much time do you think he has with an Tyrell and Lannister army outside?

 Anne Boleyn was Queen because the king decided it, breaking all laws about marriage.

 

Why not? It's not like her well being is relevant

 

Stannis lied to Ser Davos about killing Renly, why not lie to a traitor? He's pretty determined to gain his throne.

 

According to OP, 5 days.

 

[Stormking902]

The only good quality Cersie has is her love of her children, if Stannis promised Cersie Joffrey would be tortured in extreme ways in front of her face perhaps flaying him alive like the Boltons, etc. If she confesses he promises her Joffrey will have a quick painless death and that Tommom and her daughter would be spared forced to take the black and silent sisters, if she refuses after Joffrey has been tortured untill his death he will keep Cersie alive so be can find Tommon and force the Martells to give him Myrcella and torture them to death as well. I think Cersie confesses and quickly......

[aryagonnakill#2]

I'd say that if Stannis took the city 1 of two things would happen. 

1. Tywin first has to find out that Tommen is alive, this is no guarantee.  Then he has to negotiate a marriage with the Tyrells, again no guarantee.  Then with Robb to Tywins rear, and the word spreading to Stannis was successful in taking the city they would know that they cannot sit outside Kingslanding and wait, they would have to storm the city.  Stannis has his own ships, and what is more he now has the Redwyn twins.  There is no blockading KL from the sea anymore, so trade ships would start to come.  Stannis also has the wealth of Storms End and the stormlands at this point to potentially hire sellswords, so waiting really isn't an option for them.  If/when they storm the city the infantry may or may not obey as others have pointed out a lot of their lords are with Stannis who is a seasoned general and more bluntly an adult.  Compared to following Tommen, a plump child, most would choose Stannis.

2.  The Tyrells attack Tywin to show support for Stannis, hoping to marry in somehow possibly Willas or Loras to Shireen.  The problem with this is we know the Tyrells hate Stannis due to his potentially holding a grudge for the siege of Storms End during Roberts rebellion and his marriage to a Florent who has a claim to Highgarden.  While I personally don't think that represents a real threat to their rule of the Reach, Mace may think it is.  It all comes down to that 1 decision for Mace to make, this is definitely the easier decision, as there are significantly fewer variables and with just one battle to win where he would have the numerical advantage.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

26 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I'd say that if Stannis took the city 1 of two things would happen. 

1. Tywin first has to find out that Tommen is alive, this is no guarantee.  Then he has to negotiate a marriage with the Tyrells, again no guarantee.  Then with Robb to Tywins rear, and the word spreading to Stannis was successful in taking the city they would know that they cannot sit outside Kingslanding and wait, they would have to storm the city.  Stannis has his own ships, and what is more he now has the Redwyn twins.  There is no blockading KL from the sea anymore, so trade ships would start to come.  Stannis also has the wealth of Storms End and the stormlands at this point to potentially hire sellswords, so waiting really isn't an option for them.  If/when they storm the city the infantry may or may not obey as others have pointed out a lot of their lords are with Stannis who is a seasoned general and more bluntly an adult.  Compared to following Tommen, a plump child, most would choose Stannis.

2.  The Tyrells attack Tywin to show support for Stannis, hoping to marry in somehow possibly Willas or Loras to Shireen.  The problem with this is we know the Tyrells hate Stannis due to his potentially holding a grudge for the siege of Storms End during Roberts rebellion and his marriage to a Florent who has a claim to Highgarden.  While I personally don't think that represents a real threat to their rule of the Reach, Mace may think it is.  It all comes down to that 1 decision for Mace to make, this is definitely the easier decision, as there are significantly fewer variables and with just one battle to win where he would have the numerical advantage.

This

[Stormking902]

3 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I'd say that if Stannis took the city 1 of two things would happen. 

1. Tywin first has to find out that Tommen is alive, this is no guarantee.  Then he has to negotiate a marriage with the Tyrells, again no guarantee.  Then with Robb to Tywins rear, and the word spreading to Stannis was successful in taking the city they would know that they cannot sit outside Kingslanding and wait, they would have to storm the city.  Stannis has his own ships, and what is more he now has the Redwyn twins.  There is no blockading KL from the sea anymore, so trade ships would start to come.  Stannis also has the wealth of Storms End and the stormlands at this point to potentially hire sellswords, so waiting really isn't an option for them.  If/when they storm the city the infantry may or may not obey as others have pointed out a lot of their lords are with Stannis who is a seasoned general and more bluntly an adult.  Compared to following Tommen, a plump child, most would choose Stannis.

2.  The Tyrells attack Tywin to show support for Stannis, hoping to marry in somehow possibly Willas or Loras to Shireen.  The problem with this is we know the Tyrells hate Stannis due to his potentially holding a grudge for the siege of Storms End during Roberts rebellion and his marriage to a Florent who has a claim to Highgarden.  While I personally don't think that represents a real threat to their rule of the Reach, Mace may think it is.  It all comes down to that 1 decision for Mace to make, this is definitely the easier decision, as there are significantly fewer variables and with just one battle to win where he would have the numerical advantage.

I forgot about the Redwyn twins being at Kingslanding that in itself is huge this gives him access to the Reachs fleet in turn he could even leave KL and attack Lannisport and put it to the torch showing many lords Tywin isnt as savy as he may have people believe and that Stannis is the greatest commander in Westeros. Sure Tywin retakes kingslanding but its a hollow victory especially when he hears his precious city is destroyed. At this point id propose a mariage arrangment between house Hightower and Baratheon, if refused I offer the Greyjoys an alliance and raid the West coast and Reach untill the rest of the Reach lords abandon Mace. With no fleet to counter attack it be like taking candy from a baby. 

[LindsayLohan]

Regarding the fate of Cersei, Joffrey, and Tyrion, I'll take George's word for it:

“I am not without mercy,” thundered he who was notoriously without mercy.