Why did the Gardeners allow Harrenhal to be built?

[Stormking902]

I mean come on these are the Iron Born all they do litterally is steal, rape and reave then repeat. If I was king Gardener and the IB have taken the Riverlands I would be pretty causious of the situation and keep a very close eye on there movements, as soon as I hear of Harrenhals construction I would call ALL my banners and move in for the kill. 

 

Think about it why on this earth would you allow your enemy to build the biggest stronghold the world has ever seen (litterally) and your kingdom boarders with them are you INSANE or idiotic?. If Aegon didnt conquer Westeros when he did you would see the IB reaving all across the Reach and Westerlands which has to be expected when you think of the Nature of the IB, the Riverlands wernt enough for them they would always want more. 

 

If im king Gardener I would immediately call ALL banners meet with the Lannisters and ask they call ALL there banners and remove the IB scum for good before they have a stronghold that could turn the tide of war heavily in the IB favor. The Lannisters would be easy to convince hell some Riverland lords would help you too if it ment the IB gone for good. 

 

 

[Praetor Xyn]

Good question. Perhaps religious reasons, like Harren had to cut down a werewood grove to do it and they figured the gods would take care of him for the sacrilege. There's no evidence for this, but I don't know of anything in the text pointing to an answer to your question either.

[The Hoare]

It's not a easy thing destroy a kingdom, let alone a kingdom with the weight of the Iron Islands/Riverlands.

The moment the gardeners start marching agains't Harrenhall there would be reavers raiding the defenseless Reach.

Also, Harrenhall is a castle hard to defend. Too much soldiers(necessary to secure all walls) means that revolts would be pretty commom. It's not that fearsome military speaking, it's just a castle meant to show the power of King Harren to the world.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Because Harrenhal was in the RL, not the Reach or even really that close to the Reach. Why mount an expedition to destroy it when it means little and less to your kingdom?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

6 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Because Harrenhal was in the RL, not the Reach or even really that close to the Reach. Why mount an expedition to destroy it when it means little and less to your kingdom?

 It was far enough away that it wasn't a huge threat to the Reach. 

[Protagoras]

I think it also is worth to point out that if you have a neighbor who " steal, rape and reave then repeat" you more or less beg for problem if you attack them. That is, if they respond to such an attack from you by fending it off and later counter-attacks, raids the Reach, pillages your land, rapes your women and steal your shit you yourself are to blame, since you gave justification to their attack (No, you cannot claim to such an attack still is the complete responsibility of the Ironborn since the attack wouldnt have happened without a provocation. And any analysis that only blames the doer of an action, without considering the reasons behind it, is lazy). Sure, they might you attack anyway, but you just gave them a good reason to. Hard then to later paint yourself as a victim (something a certain lord commander should learn).

Just because you consider someone scum doesn´t absolve the consequences of your action and claiming that you "needed to strike first" are the words of a war-mongerer. At least the ironborn doesn´t lie to themselves what they are.

[Stormking902]

37 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

I think it also is worth to point out that if you have a neighbor who " steal, rape and reave then repeat" you more or less beg for problem if you attack them. That is, if they respond to such an attack from you by fending it off and later counter-attacks, raids the Reach, pillages your land, rapes your women and steal your shit you yourself are to blame, since you gave justification to their attack (No, you cannot claim to such an attack still is the complete responsibility of the Ironborn since the attack wouldnt have happened without a provocation. And any analysis that only blames the doer of an action, without considering the reasons behind it, is lazy). Sure, they might you attack anyway, but you just gave them a good reason to. Hard then to later paint yourself as a victim (something a certain lord commander should learn).

Just because you consider someone scum doesn´t absolve the consequences of your action and claiming that you "needed to strike first" are the words of a war-mongerer. At least the ironborn doesn´t lie to themselves what they are.

The sigil represented the distant lands that had been under the rule of the house: the longship for the Iron Islands, the green pine for Bear Island, the grape cluster for the Arbor, and the black raven for the maesters of Oldtown; all bound by the iron chains of the ironmen.

wouldnt the above mean house Hoare has already attacked the Reach??? 

[Protagoras]

15 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

The sigil represented the distant lands that had been under the rule of the house: the longship for the Iron Islands, the green pine for Bear Island, the grape cluster for the Arbor, and the black raven for the maesters of Oldtown; all bound by the iron chains of the ironmen.

wouldnt the above mean house Hoare has already attacked the Reach??? 

Then why are they not already at war at that point? Because the conflict is over, thats why. It is in the past. This is restarting an old conflict again, which makes the Reach the attacker. There is little to support that the Ironborn has been a constant enemy ever.

And again, the ironborn doesn´t lie to themselves what they are. They are fully willing to take the consequences of their actions. They believe that the strong should dominate the weak. Can you and the Reach say the same thing? The Ironborn KNOWS they have given others cause to strike back at them. They simply don´t care.

Nor is my point really rebutted. Yes, the have attacked the Reach in the past. They might raid often regardless. They might even attack tomorrow. But if you attack, you have given them cause to strike back. Are the Gardeners willing to take the consequences, their consequences, of such a choice? Because if they do, go for it, I say. But the don´t come complain later about those evil, evil ironborns raping and pillaging your home-country. We have a saying in Sweden - Den som ger sig in i leken får leken tåla (English translation: "It's all part of the game" or maybe " you've made your bed, you'd better lie in it").

[Stormking902]

1 hour ago, Protagoras said:

Then why are they not already at war at that point? Because the conflict is over, thats why. It is in the past. This is restarting an old conflict again, which makes the Reach the attacker. There is little to support that the Ironborn has been a constant enemy ever.

And again, the ironborn doesn´t lie to themselves what they are. They are fully willing to take the consequences of their actions. They believe that the strong should dominate the weak. Can you and the Reach say the same thing? The Ironborn KNOWS they have given others cause to strike back at them. They simply don´t care.

Nor is my point really rebutted. Yes, the have attacked the Reach in the past. They might raid often regardless. They might even attack tomorrow. But if you attack, you have given them cause to strike back. Are the Gardeners willing to take the consequences, their consequences, of such a choice? Because if they do, go for it, I say. But the don´t come complain later about those evil, evil ironborns raping and pillaging your home-country. We have a saying in Sweden - Den som ger sig in i leken får leken tåla (English translation: "It's all part of the game" or maybe " you've made your bed, you'd better lie in it").

Your point of view is your own some Kings/commanders like to play defensivly and some like to play offense, sometimes a good offense is a good defense and sometimes a good defense is a good offense. For example WW2 the Russians didnt attack the Nazis when they had the chance even though Stallin knew the Germans eventually will get around to them at some point. Untill the Germans attacked mother Russia they marched through Russia with ease untill Stallin made a very bold move of basically sacrificing his own people and forcing one of the largest human migrations the world has ever seem and burning the crops and towns and well everything to the ground. He allowed Germany to March deep into Russia and the Germans eventually froze to death and ran out of supplys thats when the Russians countered and defeated the Germans. Basically your saying the Reach should be Russia ????

[The Hoare]

44 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Your point of view is your own some Kings/commanders like to play defensivly and some like to play offense, sometimes a good offense is a good defense and sometimes a good defense is a good offense. For example WW2 the Russians didnt attack the Nazis when they had the chance even though Stallin knew the Germans eventually will get around to them at some point. Untill the Germans attacked mother Russia they marched through Russia with ease untill Stallin made a very bold move of basically sacrificing his own people and forcing one of the largest human migrations the world has ever seem and burning the crops and towns and well everything to the ground. He allowed Germany to March deep into Russia and the Germans eventually froze to death and ran out of supplys thats when the Russians countered and defeated the Germans. Basically your saying the Reach should be Russia ????

Germany and Russia are a bad example. Everyone attacked everyone in Westeros at time, using the ironborn culture as excuse for war is not a good idea.

The Reach shared a very small border with the Riverlands at time anyway, they were hardly a problem to them. The Hoares didn't even seemed to bother the lannisters, despite their territory being very close to the Isles and the Riverlands

[A Ghost of Someone]

It seems that Harren the black and the iron born also had the river lords, including The Tully's as their bannermen which made the really the strongest force in Westeros, Pre Conguest. The IB took massive losses when Argon melted Harrenhall including the entire Royal Family in Harrenhall themselves. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

8 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

I mean come on these are the Iron Born all they do litterally is steal, rape and reave then repeat. If I was king Gardener and the IB have taken the Riverlands I would be pretty causious of the situation and keep a very close eye on there movements, as soon as I hear of Harrenhals construction I would call ALL my banners and move in for the kill. 

 

Think about it why on this earth would you allow your enemy to build the biggest stronghold the world has ever seen (litterally) and your kingdom boarders with them are you INSANE or idiotic?. If Aegon didnt conquer Westeros when he did you would see the IB reaving all across the Reach and Westerlands which has to be expected when you think of the Nature of the IB, the Riverlands wernt enough for them they would always want more. 

 

If im king Gardener I would immediately call ALL banners meet with the Lannisters and ask they call ALL there banners and remove the IB scum for good before they have a stronghold that could turn the tide of war heavily in the IB favor. The Lannisters would be easy to convince hell some Riverland lords would help you too if it ment the IB gone for good. 

 

 

The Gardener kings were too busy failing at conquering Dorne to care what the IB were doing in the land of the former Mudd kings 

[mormont]

[mod] Folks, let's keep the real-world history debates for General Chatter, please. [/mod]

[theblackdragonI]

21 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The Gardener kings were too busy failing at conquering Dorne to care what the IB were doing in the land of the former Mudd kings 

Replace with Dorne with the Stormlands and you're right. Stormking Argilac killed king Garse VII sometime in the 20 or so years before Aegon landed. They were probably preoccupied with the Stormlands. 

[Emie]

Why would the Gardener's care what goes on in the Riverlands? They were kings of the Reach. They were not part of the Riverlands. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Because the Harren the Black at that time principle enemy was Argilac .

[Pain killer Jane]

The better Question is why didn't the Lannister Kings do anything. Knowing the amount of time grudges are held, they should have still been upset at the treat of Lelia Lannister and since the Westerlands are closer to Iron Islands than the Reach. That is what we should be focusing. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 4/2/2017 at 8:50 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Because Harrenhal was in the RL, not the Reach or even really that close to the Reach. Why mount an expedition to destroy it when it means little and less to your kingdom?

This. Even if they didn't liked it what they could do? It's like asking why for example the Arryns allowed New Castle to be built? Why the Dornish allowed King's Landing? Why the Gerdeners allowed Storm's End to be built?

[Boarsbane]

The real question is why no one made a real attempt to take the Riverlands in the 100 years before Harrenhal was even built, the Hoares repeatedly attacked other kingdoms and lost, they surely would of been weakened numerous times with amount of defeats Harrec was taking by attacking the Arryns and Lannisters, it was obvious they were trying to expand as well but everyone seems content to sit around and let them take a little more land at a time. 

[Barbrey Dustin]

On 2/4/2017 at 1:19 PM, Stormking902 said:

I mean come on these are the Iron Born all they do litterally is steal, rape and reave then repeat. If I was king Gardener and the IB have taken the Riverlands I would be pretty causious of the situation and keep a very close eye on there movements, as soon as I hear of Harrenhals construction I would call ALL my banners and move in for the kill. 

 

Think about it why on this earth would you allow your enemy to build the biggest stronghold the world has ever seen (litterally) and your kingdom boarders with them are you INSANE or idiotic?. If Aegon didnt conquer Westeros when he did you would see the IB reaving all across the Reach and Westerlands which has to be expected when you think of the Nature of the IB, the Riverlands wernt enough for them they would always want more. 

 

If im king Gardener I would immediately call ALL banners meet with the Lannisters and ask they call ALL there banners and remove the IB scum for good before they have a stronghold that could turn the tide of war heavily in the IB favor. The Lannisters would be easy to convince hell some Riverland lords would help you too if it ment the IB gone for good. 

 

 

The short answer:  Gardener couldn't do it.  The Ironborn under Harren the Black were stronger than the Gardeners.  Harren was the strongest of the tiny kings that ruled a territory in those days.  No one could stand up to the Ironborn of that period until the dragons came along and the Targaryens finally put the Ironborn in their rightful place at the bottom.