Relic Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 Wow, what an episode. I was irritated with the drama, and the excessive stylized flexing, until those last 15 minutes, when it all started making sense. Poor Elliot and Darlene. Malek deserves another award for his performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 7 hours ago, Relic said: Malek deserves another award for his performance. Indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dooog Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 Sorry. Have to say I can barely stand this season. Thought it was an 8 episode final season so I started on it over a week ago just to get some closure for a show I loved in S1 and disliked everything thereafter. It's been a slog, Couple times i've found myself thinking this episode must be nearly over only to check and see it's not even halfway through. They ruined Angela's character so much in previous seasons I was actually half relieved to see her clipped nonchalantly in the S4 opener. Wellick was such an interesting character with bags of potential but it felt they didn't know how to use him since S1... his entrance and exit in S4 were suitably unremarkable. Darlene's actress has always been one of the weakest points of the show even when I enjoyed it. The female FBI agent I don't and never have given a shit about. At this point the show is basically being carried by 2 incredible actors in Malek and Cristofer but it isn't enough to make it a compelling show. People who love the show will overlook its shortcomings but speaking for myself, I recommended this show to several people a few years ago who all praised the first season yet i'm pretty sure i'm the only one of them that hasn't quit this show yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 15 minutes ago, dooog said: Sorry. Have to say I can barely stand this season. Thought it was an 8 episode final season so I started on it over a week ago just to get some closure for a show I loved in S1 and disliked everything thereafter. It's been a slog, Couple times i've found myself thinking this episode must be nearly over only to check and see it's not even halfway through. They ruined Angela's character so much in previous seasons I was actually half relieved to see her clipped nonchalantly in the S4 opener. Wellick was such an interesting character with bags of potential but it felt they didn't know how to use him since S1... his entrance and exit in S4 were suitably unremarkable. Darlene's actress has always been one of the weakest points of the show even when I enjoyed it. The female FBI agent I don't and never have given a shit about. At this point the show is basically being carried by 2 incredible actors in Malek and Cristofer but it isn't enough to make it a compelling show. People who love the show will overlook its shortcomings but speaking for myself, I recommended this show to several people a few years ago who all praised the first season yet i'm pretty sure i'm the only one of them that hasn't quit this show yet. Mostly agree on Tyrell and Angela. But I like Dom. And I think Wong's performance as Whiterose has been remarkable, in addition to Malek, Slater and Cristofer. Overall, I think that the show has struggled to re-discover the excellence of S1, but S3 and S4 have provided enough great moments to see the show through to the end. S2 nearly lost me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 Dom is an absolute badass. Loved her being one step ahead of crazy Janice. And what a creepy villain she was. Kind of reminiscent of Todd from Breaking Bad. Guess I’m enjoying this season more than most here. Feels like it’s going out strong, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 I just hope Dom's ok. This season's track record suggests but. I'm not forgetting the very end am I? It's still possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Man, when this show is on, it is really, really fucking on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 On 12/3/2019 at 8:25 AM, Kalbear said: Man, when this show is on, it is really, really fucking on. Yuppppp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 On 11/24/2019 at 4:49 AM, dooog said: Sorry. Have to say I can barely stand this season. Thought it was an 8 episode final season so I started on it over a week ago just to get some closure for a show I loved in S1 and disliked everything thereafter. It's been a slog, Couple times i've found myself thinking this episode must be nearly over only to check and see it's not even halfway through. They ruined Angela's character so much in previous seasons I was actually half relieved to see her clipped nonchalantly in the S4 opener. Wellick was such an interesting character with bags of potential but it felt they didn't know how to use him since S1... his entrance and exit in S4 were suitably unremarkable. Darlene's actress has always been one of the weakest points of the show even when I enjoyed it. The female FBI agent I don't and never have given a shit about. At this point the show is basically being carried by 2 incredible actors in Malek and Cristofer but it isn't enough to make it a compelling show. People who love the show will overlook its shortcomings but speaking for myself, I recommended this show to several people a few years ago who all praised the first season yet i'm pretty sure i'm the only one of them that hasn't quit this show yet. Have to say I agree. I kind of enjoy the show on some level; it does have some great moments. But you are correct on almost all of those points. It’s like the show has literally no idea what to do with its characters, and just wanders off randomly to put them in some scenes, eventually discarding them just as you might enjoy their presence. Malik is great in it, and at this point I watch it out of stubborness, but it’s rarely fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 That episode was amazing. This is shaping up to be my favorite season since the 1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 17 hours ago, Heartofice said: Have to say I agree. I kind of enjoy the show on some level; it does have some great moments. But you are correct on almost all of those points. It’s like the show has literally no idea what to do with its characters, and just wanders off randomly to put them in some scenes, eventually discarding them just as you might enjoy their presence. Malik is great in it, and at this point I watch it out of stubborness, but it’s rarely fun. Do you know what every topic needs? Your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 So what is Ellito's final (and true??) personality? Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martini Sigil Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 11 hours ago, Relic said: So what is Ellito's final (and true??) personality? Any ideas? I'm thinking --based on that scene in the highrise, looking out the window-- that its his mom... but I'm probably wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 13 minutes ago, Martini Sigil said: I'm thinking --based on that scene in the highrise, looking out the window-- that its his mom... but I'm probably wrong. It can't be her, as she refers to there being "another" in the last scene of the previous episode. which takes place inside Elliot's head. I'm thinking it might be the "you" that Elliot and Mr. Robot sometimes speak to, presumably referencing the audience? Either that it's just the "real Elliot" , the one we never get to see because of all the compartmentalizing he's done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 I think it's Mr. Robot without his hat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martini Sigil Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 On 12/5/2019 at 5:11 PM, Relic said: It can't be her, as she refers to there being "another" in the last scene of the previous episode. which takes place inside Elliot's head. I'm thinking it might be the "you" that Elliot and Mr. Robot sometimes speak to, presumably referencing the audience? Either that it's just the "real Elliot" , the one we never get to see because of all the compartmentalizing he's done. Ah... Gotcha... thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceChampion Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 Yeah, the 4th is the wholly integrated Elliot. There is no other possibility given this plot structure is like a perfect example of a Heroine's Journey (I prefer to call it a Seeker's Journey, because it is about seeking authenticity, integration, connection and meaning, and nothing about that structure needs the character to be a female). The classic Heroine's / Seeker's Journey is about a princess or goddess going into the underworld representing their unconscious and coming back home integrated and whole. The heroine meets three representatives of her psyche, the Preserver, the Destroyer and the Creator. I' m the only one to recognize that the heroine herself represents a 4th persona, the Transformer. I should get a PhD for this! This show fooled me. I was confused about which character represented which of Eliot's personas, and it led me to believe that this was going to end in tragedy, because it seemed structured in a negative change arc. But now I see the persona didn't actually have to be on screen for each season to be about that aspect of Eliot. That persona just had to be in control. The first season was all about Elliot's kid persona. That kid was mostly in control of Elliot throughout the season, in the Preserver role. The Preserver is an aggressive, instinctual force most associated with memory. I think every time Elliot is speaking in that slow way he does, that's the Preserver. The goal in the show of the Preserver is to maintain an equilibrium, to avoid change and truth. The other personas are still in play though, operating in opposition to the Preserver's wishes. The 5/9 hack is due to the opposite persona, the Transformer, as represented by Mr. Robot. The Preserver operates in the unconscious, but the Transformer operates in the subconscious, as a liminal space between the conscious and unconscious. The Transformer is half-way asleep, half-way awake. That allows the Transformer to speak the truth of the unconscious to the conscious aspect of Elliot. Speaking truth has been Mr. Robot's role throughout the series. The second season was in control by Elliot's Destroyer persona, as represented by his mom. The Destroyer is a chameleon. She masked from him where Elliot even was when he was in jail. The Destroyer desperately wants to deny the truth, and avoids integrating the unconscious with the conscious. Mother must have denied Eliot's father was a child abuser. The Destroyer is most associated with repression of self, and represents an alienated and chameleonic nature where switching between the two sides is needed, while denying any truth between the two. In the larger story, the Phase 2 of the 5/9 hack was conducted by the Destroyer. The third season was in control by Mr. Robot, Elliot's Transformer. Truth was finally being addressed. Mr. Robot worked with Elliot, instead of against him, because Elliot didn't want the Destroyer to lead anymore. The Transformer is liminal, but vulnerable, which is why being this persona is so risky. It's most associated with seeing and visualizing the future, or the path forward. The fourth season was in control by the Creator persona. That's Elliot, working together with himself. He need to go back to the unconscious with his psychiatrist in order to find the truth about what really happened to him as a kid. He needed connection with other people to develop a change in his Creator persona so that he's not so much of asshole to people like Darlene. The fourth season was about growing finally into the fully integrated, authentic, connected self. The Creator is most associated with expressing the self, so I figure before the end there will be one final grand gesture by Elliot. I think he might reveal himself to the world. Perhaps a final broadcast of fsociety without the mask. The other characters probably represent secondary versions of Elliot's personas. Whiterose the chameleonic Destroyer for sure. I think Angela might have been a broken version of his Creator archetype, because he was connected to her most of all. Tyrell Wellick the Preserver (aggressive, instinctual). And Darlene must be the Transformer, she helps Elliot see and act, but the Transformer can also lead to hopelessness and despair if their vision is distorted. Given no one teaches the Seeker's Journey to the extent I've been developing my understanding of it, I am very impressed by the writers of shows like this one, and others like Twin Peaks the Return, and Orphan Black, that somehow manage to get it right without help of theory. Sam Esmail is a genius, or it's just an very instinctively obvious structure once the writer sets down this path to writing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 I'd be interested in a breakdown of Orphan Black through this lens if you're ever in the mood to do that. I just rewatched it all and was reminded that I felt there was a lot going on with Felix casting the sestras as various Greek gods but never saw any analysis from people with the understanding to break it down. On topic I really enjoyed this episode again and was super tense at the end. I'm still concerned about Dom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceChampion Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 20 minutes ago, karaddin said: I'd be interested in a breakdown of Orphan Black through this lens if you're ever in the mood to do that. I just rewatched it all and was reminded that I felt there was a lot going on with Felix casting the sestras as various Greek gods but never saw any analysis from people with the understanding to break it down. On topic I really enjoyed this episode again and was super tense at the end. I'm still concerned about Dom Well, actually... Did that two years ago here. I need to do a thorough one for Twin Peaks next. I've discovered a lot of movies, books and tv shows that follow that set up. The obvious flag is the use of doppelgangers. BUT it is not completely diagnostic because take the recent Dark Crystal series. On the surface details of the whole Skeksis / UrRu dichotomy would for sure be a Seeker's Journey. I can't find anything except a Hero's Journey structure (ie. a story based on conflict and problem solving) in it, but I'm going to need another look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 On 12/7/2019 at 8:12 AM, SpaceChampion said: Yeah, the 4th is the wholly integrated Elliot. There is no other possibility given this plot structure is like a perfect example of a Heroine's Journey (I prefer to call it a Seeker's Journey, because it is about seeking authenticity, integration, connection and meaning, and nothing about that structure needs the character to be a female). The classic Heroine's / Seeker's Journey is about a princess or goddess going into the underworld representing their unconscious and coming back home integrated and whole. The heroine meets three representatives of her psyche, the Preserver, the Destroyer and the Creator. I' m the only one to recognize that the heroine herself represents a 4th persona, the Transformer. I should get a PhD for this! This show fooled me. I was confused about which character represented which of Eliot's personas, and it led me to believe that this was going to end in tragedy, because it seemed structured in a negative change arc. But now I see the persona didn't actually have to be on screen for each season to be about that aspect of Eliot. That persona just had to be in control. The first season was all about Elliot's kid persona. That kid was mostly in control of Elliot throughout the season, in the Preserver role. The Preserver is an aggressive, instinctual force most associated with memory. I think every time Elliot is speaking in that slow way he does, that's the Preserver. The goal in the show of the Preserver is to maintain an equilibrium, to avoid change and truth. The other personas are still in play though, operating in opposition to the Preserver's wishes. The 5/9 hack is due to the opposite persona, the Transformer, as represented by Mr. Robot. The Preserver operates in the unconscious, but the Transformer operates in the subconscious, as a liminal space between the conscious and unconscious. The Transformer is half-way asleep, half-way awake. That allows the Transformer to speak the truth of the unconscious to the conscious aspect of Elliot. Speaking truth has been Mr. Robot's role throughout the series. The second season was in control by Elliot's Destroyer persona, as represented by his mom. The Destroyer is a chameleon. She masked from him where Elliot even was when he was in jail. The Destroyer desperately wants to deny the truth, and avoids integrating the unconscious with the conscious. Mother must have denied Eliot's father was a child abuser. The Destroyer is most associated with repression of self, and represents an alienated and chameleonic nature where switching between the two sides is needed, while denying any truth between the two. In the larger story, the Phase 2 of the 5/9 hack was conducted by the Destroyer. The third season was in control by Mr. Robot, Elliot's Transformer. Truth was finally being addressed. Mr. Robot worked with Elliot, instead of against him, because Elliot didn't want the Destroyer to lead anymore. The Transformer is liminal, but vulnerable, which is why being this persona is so risky. It's most associated with seeing and visualizing the future, or the path forward. The fourth season was in control by the Creator persona. That's Elliot, working together with himself. He need to go back to the unconscious with his psychiatrist in order to find the truth about what really happened to him as a kid. He needed connection with other people to develop a change in his Creator persona so that he's not so much of asshole to people like Darlene. The fourth season was about growing finally into the fully integrated, authentic, connected self. The Creator is most associated with expressing the self, so I figure before the end there will be one final grand gesture by Elliot. I think he might reveal himself to the world. Perhaps a final broadcast of fsociety without the mask. The other characters probably represent secondary versions of Elliot's personas. Whiterose the chameleonic Destroyer for sure. I think Angela might have been a broken version of his Creator archetype, because he was connected to her most of all. Tyrell Wellick the Preserver (aggressive, instinctual). And Darlene must be the Transformer, she helps Elliot see and act, but the Transformer can also lead to hopelessness and despair if their vision is distorted. Given no one teaches the Seeker's Journey to the extent I've been developing my understanding of it, I am very impressed by the writers of shows like this one, and others like Twin Peaks the Return, and Orphan Black, that somehow manage to get it right without help of theory. Sam Esmail is a genius, or it's just an very instinctively obvious structure once the writer sets down this path to writing it. How do you feel about all of the above given the events of episode 11? Do we think the two worlds will merge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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