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Chris Mormont

Sansa and the Savage Giant

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I am rereading Storm of Swords and in Arya's chapter in which she returns to High Heart with the Brothers without Banners, the Ghost of High Heart says the following:

" I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief. I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow."

Obviously the maid at a feast is Sansa, as she is referring to the poison in her hair net, so that would mean she will slay a savage giant in a castle built of snow.  

Anyone have any theories on what that will be?

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The traditional understanding, and one I stick to is that the savage giant is LF. The castle built of snow could be just about any castle come winter. 

There is a theory that Arya will take Sansa's face and kill LF while wearing it, which I do not subscribe to, LF is Sansa's  kill, Varys is Aryas..  However the giant is still LF.  His family crest is the head of the Titan of Bravos, a giant.  He is also a giant in the metaphorical sense in terms of his impact and power, as Tyrion has been referred to as a giant a couple times for his intellect.  Given what he does to people, savage is definitely a good descriptive word for him as well.

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9 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The traditional understanding, and one I stick to is that the savage giant is LF. The castle built of snow could be just about any castle come winter. 

There is a theory that Arya will take Sansa's face and kill LF while wearing it, which I do not subscribe to, LF is Sansa's  kill, Varys is Aryas..  However the giant is still LF.  His family crest is the head of the Titan of Bravos, a giant.  He is also a giant in the metaphorical sense in terms of his impact and power, as Tyrion has been referred to as a giant a couple times for his intellect.  Given what he does to people, savage is definitely a good descriptive word for him as well.

Agreed.  I would add the castle built of snow is Winterfell in reference to when Sansa made a snow sculpture of Winterfell while at the Eyrie with LF.

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2 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Agreed.  I would add the castle built of snow is Winterfell in reference to when Sansa made a snow sculpture of Winterfell while at the Eyrie with LF.

I just can't get onboard with Sansa and LF going north.  Book wise it just makes no sense, and would be seemingly logistically impossible to do so with an army.

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2 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I just can't get onboard with Sansa and LF going north.  Book wise it just makes no sense, and would be seemingly logistically impossible to do so with an army.

I don't think it is imminent, but I do think it is probable with the eventual coming of the Others and there needing to be some dealing with the winner of the Stannis/Roose battle... I don't see why Cersei wouldn't try to dispatch LF and the Knights of the Vale, and LF may want to use the overthrow of the Boltons and Kevan's death as a reason to make his power move to install Sansa.  As for logistics, maybe they have another false spring and the snows that are destroying Stannis' army subside following the battle, making travel much easier.  The snow sculpture scene just makes too much sense to me, especially since it was LF who was helping Sansa to make the recreation of Winterfell and I believe he may have kissed her then.

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Snow could perhaps mean that the castle, whichever one it might be, would crumble and collapse as if it were made of snow. I definitely see the Eyrie going down at some point in one way or another.

Or it could just be Winterfell, which is really the more logical explanation.

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Sansa will have to kill LF. I cannot say exactly how it will come into the story, but it makes an entire sense for the simple reason that I can't see LF dying another way lol. And that's mostly this quote which makes me think that Sansa will have a role in LF's death :

Quote

The Broken Tower was easier still. They made a tall tower together, kneeling side by side to roll it smooth, and when they'd raised it Sansa stuck her fingers through the top, grabbed a handful of snow, and flung it full in his face. Petyr yelped, as the snow slid down under his collar. "That was unchivalrously done, my lady."

ASOS, Sansa VII

 

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Littlefinger is the leading candidate, which is the only reason why he wouldn't be the giant IMO. True, his sigil is the titan, but as an image it is merely a helmeted grey stone head with fire eyes.

Since the GoHH uses the actual imagery of sigils to describe all manner of houses (the kraken, the wolf, the lion...) it might be worth it to see if any other houses have a giant for their sigil. And the only one I can come up with is House Umber, a roaring giant with broken silver chains.

So I can't imagine how or why such a thing would happen, but if Petyr turns out not to be the giant, then mayhaps it will be Whoresbane or Crowfood or, here's a wild thought, Crowfood's daughter who was carried off by wildlings 30 years ago. Could also be the Greatjon.

Then, of course, we also have an actual giant, Wun Wun, and a figurative giant, Tyrion.

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I know some folks think that Sansa "killing" Sweetrobin's doll during the snow castle scene fulfilled the GoHH prophecy. But I think it is part of GRRM's threefold revelation strategy from a thread I read while I still lurked.

So we have: 

  1. GoHH
  2. Snow castle building scene 
  3. ???

Sansa still has the hairnet doesn't she? I wonder if all the stones are poison.

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1 hour ago, Butterwell said:

I know some folks think that Sansa "killing" Sweetrobin's doll during the snow castle scene fulfilled the GoHH prophecy. But I think it is part of GRRM's threefold revelation strategy from a thread I read while I still lurked.

So we have: 

  1. GoHH
  2. Snow castle building scene 
  3. ???

Sansa still has the hairnet doesn't she? I wonder if all the stones are poison.

Drop the whole thing in a cup of wine? 

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The Eyrie shrank above them. The sky cells on the lower levels made the castle look something like a honeycomb from below. A honeycomb made of ice, Alayne thought, a castle made of snow. She could hear the wind whistling round the bucket.

LF in the Eyrie is first up.

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Savage Giant in order of likelyhood:

Robert's Doll, an Umber, an actual giant, Tyrion, Baelish.

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If it is indeed Littlefinger, you guys don't think Sansa will literally kill him, right?

Through all the people Littlefinger got killed throughout the story, he's only done the deed himself, and that was a crime of opportunity when his mark happened to be standing beside an open door to oblivion. If Sansa has been learning anything, she'll get him killed by someone else, but probably not literally telling someone to gut him (plenty of folks want to). And just watch with a straight face like the ice queen she is. 

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Yes the Giant is LF, and yes Sansa will kill him. 

I honestly can't believe people still argue against this. 

So the first clue we have that LF is the giant is in AGOT in Bran's dream, he see's his two sisters in KL with Jaime Lannister and the Hound standing/watching over them both. Which makes sense as the two men have turned out to play an important role in both the girls arcs, in "protective" roles. The Hound in literally protecting both girls, in turn. Jaime in his quest to rescue Sansa and his promise to Catelyn to return her daughters.  But looming over the four of them in Bran's dream is a giant clad in stone armour, with nothing inside him but thick black blood. This giant is LF. He is indeed the person looming over the girls in KL, causing them pain, and endangering their lives. He is the cause of their woes his plans have set a series of events in order which has seen them both in grave danger. And He hides his gigantic status (as biggest player on the board) behind his lowly stone associated persona.  Little Finger comes from the Fingers, a place associated with stone, it is the Vales Bastard name, and he says later of his humble holdfast that is is an OK place so long as you like stones and sheep. The land surrounding his holdfast is indeed littered with stones. He then goes on to hide Sansa as a stone too. And finally, we later learn that LF's true House Sigil is, in fact, the Titan of Braavos's head. A gigantic STONE figure who stands at the entrance to Braavos. 

So onto the clues pertaining specifically to the downfall of the Stone Giant. Firstly Joffrey takes Sansa onto the battlements in ACOK to view her father's severed head. Whilst they are up there Sansa wishes she could mount her father's killers head upon a spike above her battlements; ie Winterfell.  now whilst she is obviously thinking this is Joffrey, we readers are increasingly aware that her father's real killer is LF.  Later we get a hint that Sansa's wishes; especially pertaining to her father's execution have a habit of coming true. When at the wall a Hero does indeed force Janos Slynt down on his knees and strike his head off when Jon Snow executes him for insubordination.  So we have #1 of the now famous GRRM triad of foreshadowing. Where each subsequent foreshadowing gets more explicit.

Next, we have the GoHH's prophetic dream, in which she describes a maid with serpents in her hair, who is later revealed to be Sansa wearing the purple Strangler hairnet. And later in that dream the same maid  "slays" a savage giant in a castle made of snow"  from this clue we can ascertain that Sansa will kill a major enemy, one who can be described as having a gigantic influence on events and whose behaviour has been savage. LF fits the bill beautifully on both counts, because not only have his actions been brutal aka savage, but they have had a monumental effect upon the Starks, especially Sansa herself. So take a second now to think back to the dream Bran had and the imagery GRRM used in that. A giant clad in stone with nothing inside but thick black blood. LF clads himself in stone aka his lowly origins in order to protect himself from suspicion and he is empty inside. That much is clear when we learn his back story relating to Catelyn and his abuse and usage of Lysa. This is a soulless man.  Also, note the repeated use of a castle in the foreshadowing. Sansa needs a castle to mount a head on the battlements. And here she is slaying a giant in a castle. 

Then third times a charm, in the Eyrie we get the third and most explicit foreshadowing in which we get the events laid out for us. Sansa builds a castle out of snow. She is building WF, her home to where she wants to return. But it is also a castle which needs repairing. LF arrives on the scene and he helps her to build the castle, he provides the know-how and resources to (re)-build WF. Together they have a good time, they get along and the castle is finished and it is lovely. But along comes a "giant" SR's dolly, and he tries to bash in the gates. He's snatched up by Sansa in a fury and she rips off its head, then mounts the head upon a spike(twig) on the battlements.  So here again we have the head on battlements imagery. In the fact LF's House sigil is literally a severed head. Now look at the wording and chapter placement used here. In Sansa's chapter, she watches LF stride over the walls of her snow WF. Then the very next chapter is Arya entering Braavos, she travells under the Titan who is a stone Giant already ascoiated with LF. And she thinks to herself that the Titan could stride right over the walls of Winterfell.

Then we look at the Quote above regarding the snowball slithering under LF's collar. Which is evokative of having his neck severed. The cold snow evoking the cold steel. 

Sansa's gonna go North to WF, (this is damn obvious, no matter how bad the snows are I'm afraid we all know all roads lead to WF in TWOW) Where LF will help her to rebuild her home, providing the money to get the work done. And Then after some event iether and I hate this as much as everyone else he tries to rape her ( come into my castle game is suggestive of sex so put that idea with the doll trying to break down the castle gate)  Or she learns of his treachery and has him arrested.  This is my prefered action, but I accept there is good evidence of teh latter. In the former though I think Jon would travell to WF once he learns his sister holds teh castle and he fills her in on what Jeyne Poole tells him (She is on her way to the wall as of end of ADWD) Sansa will have LF beheaded by Jon ,or, and I MUCH prefer this idea; she executes him herself, I think it is feasable a 14 year old with a VS sword - Long Claw.  Robb got the job done with a standard sword, and who gives a fuck if LF has to endure a hack job. 

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4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I MUCH prefer this idea; she executes him herself

I'm completely sold on the idea, as well, and this is the moment I've been looking forward to ever since I heard the theory on Radio Westeros: Sansa dealing Stark justice, with a Stark steel that LF himself arranged to be smuggled out of KL hidden in those tapestries.

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4 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes the Giant is LF, and yes Sansa will kill him. 

I honestly can't believe people still argue against this. 

So the first clue we have that LF is the giant is in AGOT in Bran's dream, he see's his two sisters in KL with Jaime Lannister and the Hound standing/watching over them both. Which makes sense as the two men have turned out to play an important role in both the girls arcs, in "protective" roles. The Hound in literally protecting both girls, in turn. Jaime in his quest to rescue Sansa and his promise to Catelyn to return her daughters.  But looming over the four of them in Bran's dream is a giant clad in stone armour, with nothing inside him but thick black blood. This giant is LF. He is indeed the person looming over the girls in KL, causing them pain, and endangering their lives. He is the cause of their woes his plans have set a series of events in order which has seen them both in grave danger. And He hides his gigantic status (as biggest player on the board) behind his lowly stone associated persona.  Little Finger comes from the Fingers, a place associated with stone, it is the Vales Bastard name, and he says later of his humble holdfast that is is an OK place so long as you like stones and sheep. The land surrounding his holdfast is indeed littered with stones. He then goes on to hide Sansa as a stone too. And finally, we later learn that LF's true House Sigil is, in fact, the Titan of Braavos's head. A gigantic STONE figure who stands at the entrance to Braavos. 

So onto the clues pertaining specifically to the downfall of the Stone Giant. Firstly Joffrey takes Sansa onto the battlements in ACOK to view her father's severed head. Whilst they are up there Sansa wishes she could mount her father's killers head upon a spike above her battlements; ie Winterfell.  now whilst she is obviously thinking this is Joffrey, we readers are increasingly aware that her father's real killer is LF.  Later we get a hint that Sansa's wishes; especially pertaining to her father's execution have a habit of coming true. When at the wall a Hero does indeed force Janos Slynt down on his knees and strike his head off when Jon Snow executes him for insubordination.  So we have #1 of the now famous GRRM triad of foreshadowing. Where each subsequent foreshadowing gets more explicit.

Next, we have the GoHH's prophetic dream, in which she describes a maid with serpents in her hair, who is later revealed to be Sansa wearing the purple Strangler hairnet. And later in that dream the same maid  "slays" a savage giant in a castle made of snow"  from this clue we can ascertain that Sansa will kill a major enemy, one who can be described as having a gigantic influence on events and whose behaviour has been savage. LF fits the bill beautifully on both counts, because not only have his actions been brutal aka savage, but they have had a monumental effect upon the Starks, especially Sansa herself. So take a second now to think back to the dream Bran had and the imagery GRRM used in that. A giant clad in stone with nothing inside but thick black blood. LF clads himself in stone aka his lowly origins in order to protect himself from suspicion and he is empty inside. That much is clear when we learn his back story relating to Catelyn and his abuse and usage of Lysa. This is a soulless man.  Also, note the repeated use of a castle in the foreshadowing. Sansa needs a castle to mount a head on the battlements. And here she is slaying a giant in a castle. 

Then third times a charm, in the Eyrie we get the third and most explicit foreshadowing in which we get the events laid out for us. Sansa builds a castle out of snow. She is building WF, her home to where she wants to return. But it is also a castle which needs repairing. LF arrives on the scene and he helps her to build the castle, he provides the know-how and resources to (re)-build WF. Together they have a good time, they get along and the castle is finished and it is lovely. But along comes a "giant" SR's dolly, and he tries to bash in the gates. He's snatched up by Sansa in a fury and she rips off its head, then mounts the head upon a spike(twig) on the battlements.  So here again we have the head on battlements imagery. In the fact LF's House sigil is literally a severed head. Now look at the wording and chapter placement used here. In Sansa's chapter, she watches LF stride over the walls of her snow WF. Then the very next chapter is Arya entering Braavos, she travells under the Titan who is a stone Giant already ascoiated with LF. And she thinks to herself that the Titan could stride right over the walls of Winterfell.

Then we look at the Quote above regarding the snowball slithering under LF's collar. Which is evokative of having his neck severed. The cold snow evoking the cold steel. 

Sansa's gonna go North to WF, (this is damn obvious, no matter how bad the snows are I'm afraid we all know all roads lead to WF in TWOW) Where LF will help her to rebuild her home, providing the money to get the work done. And Then after some event iether and I hate this as much as everyone else he tries to rape her ( come into my castle game is suggestive of sex so put that idea with the doll trying to break down the castle gate)  Or she learns of his treachery and has him arrested.  This is my prefered action, but I accept there is good evidence of teh latter. In the former though I think Jon would travell to WF once he learns his sister holds teh castle and he fills her in on what Jeyne Poole tells him (She is on her way to the wall as of end of ADWD) Sansa will have LF beheaded by Jon ,or, and I MUCH prefer this idea; she executes him herself, I think it is feasable a 14 year old with a VS sword - Long Claw.  Robb got the job done with a standard sword, and who gives a fuck if LF has to endure a hack job. 

Agreed. Sansa should kill him herself. 

"The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword."

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I've not listened to that Radio Westeros Podcast @Ygrain but have been saying for years that I think she will behead him. I LOVE the idea that she would get to do it with Widdows Wail though. :D that is awesome sauce. I think Sansa, in particular, has a connection to Ice. After all, it is she who was watching its presence in KL and who was horrified when it disappeared and became Oath Keeper and Widdows Wail. So I'd love to see her wielding it, and as a "child's" sword it should work beautifully for a woman.  

Yes, @Angel Eyes  I think she'll dispense justice Northern style. the only person I could see her giving the job over to is Jon. I don't think she'd use an anonymous headsman. I think it is likely that they'll be reunited in WF after he hears she has taken the castle he'll travel south to request assistance at the wall and all that grain will come in handy. But upon finding LF in WF as Sansa's chief advisor he'll tell her what Jeyne has told him, after all, she is currently on her way to the wall. And Sansa would be horrified to learn of her friend's fate, not to mention anything else Jeyne may have learnt in LF's brothels about his influence upon Joffrey in KL etc. 

Spoiler

In Alayne I TWOW Sansa is remembering herself, Jeyne & Arya racing through the courtyard at WF, so we know she still remembers and loves her. 

 

But I do concede as mentioned that it could come about through LF assaulting Sansa. But I hate that idea personally. 

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2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I've not listened to that Radio Westeros Podcast @Ygrain but have been saying for years that I think she will behead him. I LOVE the idea that she would get to do it with Widdows Wail though. :D that is awesome sauce. I think Sansa, in particular, has a connection to Ice. After all, it is she who was watching its presence in KL and who was horrified when it disappeared and became Oath Keeper and Widdows Wail. So I'd love to see her wielding it, and as a "child's" sword it should work beautifully for a woman.  

I've listening to the episode and I agree that would be satisfying; however, I believe I read somewhere that George said Widow's Wail is still in KL.  So who knows :dunno:  There is another sword that gets repeatedly pointed to in her arc and that's Lady Forlorn.  It has a ruby heart in the pommel (as she is still Sansa in her heart) and if you read about its history in TWOIAF it was used to slay a giant of a man, Torgold Tollett, by the First Man king Robar Royce.

Quote

Then chaos ensued, as the Andals came pouring through the gap in the ranks of the First Men. Victory seemed within their grasp, but Robar Royce was not so easily defeated. Where another man might have fallen back to regroup, or fled the field, the High King commanded a counterattack. He led the charge himself, smashing through the confusion with his champions by his side. In his hand was Lady Forlorn, that dread blade he had plucked from the dead hands of the King of the Fingers. Slaying men right and left, the king fought his way to Torgold the Grim. As Robar slashed at his head, Tollett grabbed for his blade, still laughing...but Lady Forlorn sliced through his hands and buried herself in Torgold's skull.

The Corbrays were ancient kings that ruled over the Fingers, where Petyr is from.  Petyr's great-grandfather was a sellsword in service to the Corbrays.  The power balance has reversed in the Vale with LF ruling as LP, brokering a marriage for Lyonel Corbray, and Lyn Corbray both resenting LF and working for him out of desperate need for gold.  Lady Forlorn was taken up by a First Man after the Corbray King of the Fingers was slain and used to bring down the laughing giant, or a giant that makes mockery of his opponent.  The blade slices through his hands and presumably cuts off his fingers before cleaving his head.  That could be very thematically appropriate to LF for Sansa (a First Man) to cut off his (clean/un-clean) hands, his fingers (symbolically emasculating him if you think how he got his nickname), before the killing blow.  Keep in mind this whole battle took place at the base of the Giant's Lance, where Sansa is now.  I also think the name Lady Forlorn is more appropriate to Sansa rather than Widow's Wail.  Sansa isn't a widow, nor has her marriage been annulled yet to allow her to remarry.  If Lady Forlorn is used to kill Petyr, I could see it being heavier and harder to wield than the child sized Widow's Wail but not impossible.  In fact, if she tried to swing that sword herself it would probably result in not hitting the target cleanly, more like hacking than cutting straight through.  Northern justice just says she should swing the sword herself, it doesn't necessarily dictate that it should only be done if you are physically capable and trained to behead someone.  It just seems to me that Lady Forlorn has so much potential to be used here primarily because it's already a giant killer.

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This might be too speculative right now, but I have a feeling what we'll see if Sansa ends up beheading LF is a scene parallel to Judith Slaying Holofernes as depicted by Artemisia Gentileschi.  How that painting came to be is even more important than what it depicts.  The artist paints herself in the role of Biblical Judith cutting the head off Holofernes, painted in the likeness of her own mentor, Agostino Tassi.  Tassi raped his student and to make a long story short Artemisia endured a long trial, torture, and invasive physical exams only to have Tassi get 2 years in prison for unrelated crimes.  What makes this artists depiction of Judith different from others (painted by men) is that hers is very physical and full of rage, not shying away from spurting blood nor softening the women's violence to make it more feminine.  It's not one to one, but you can see some parallels here to sexual abuse by the mentor figure and injustice against his victim.  Sansa does have that "mad rage" streak when she was pushed too far and ripped the head off the doll.

Biblical Judith has themes of the Israelite heroine who gains the conquering Assyrian army's general, Holofernes's trust.  When he's drunk and vulnerable she and her maidservant cut off his head.  This is a version of a David and Goliath (get it, "giant") story where Judith is no soldier but she defeats a powerful warrior using the tools she has.  LF is not a warrior, but he has made himself vulnerable to Sansa by revealing his blindspot in regards to her. Judith takes the head back to her village and displays it on the town's wall, much like Sansa does with the doll's head.  Once the Assyrian army sees they've lost their general (as Petyr's position of power has depended on the support of Vale lords he has bribed) they are defeated by the Israelites.  Again, this isn't one to one, but I see a lot of Judith in Sansa as potential outcomes.    

      

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