Sansa and the Savage Giant

[Springwatch]

11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

<snip>

Decapitations are a form of 'neck assaults,' among which I also include broadly speaking strangulation, throat-cutting, suffocation (basically, any form of airway compromise, including events such as Drogo's 'death by pillow' and Melara's 'drowning'; 'choking' would also be in this category...note how frequently GRRM refers to 'words sticking in someone's throat'); in addition to tearing out someone's tongue.  Even though the latter is not usually fatal, I'm still including it among the 'neck assaults' since the root of the tongue is attached to the hyoid bone in the neck, anatomically adjacent to the larynx or 'voice box', in line with the symbolism I'm highlighting of such 'neck assaults' depriving someone of their voice, effectively silencing them.

Deeply interesting stuff - I'm sure this is moving on the right lines.

I maintain that decapitation is a special case though, because it ends a life, removes a player from the game. And the Dornish idea of justice for Elia is not to merely silence the accused, but to kill them.

11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 Have you ever asked yourself why the headsman who haunts Sansa is 'mute'?  You're being led by the author to make an association between beheading and silencing someone.  Ser Ilyn himself was silenced by Aerys, who removed his tongue for his insolence in daring to 'speak truth to power' which had to be suppressed.  Other amputations besides the 'neck assaults' I've described do not silence people (e.g. ears, eyes, noses, nipples, hands, toes, penises and testicles, etc.).  Ironically, now Ser Ilyn's job is to silence others daring to speak truth to power -- as Ned found out.  Here, the relation between beheading and silencing is spelled out for us again:

The head speaks the words -- so taking someone's head extinguishes their words.

Some good points here. As I said earlier, I see Ilyn as the emblem, the allegory, of justice in the land. He is Justice, and in Westeros, Justice has no voice.

Ilyn became the sidekick of Jaime, who recently developed an interest in honour and justice, and wants to find Sansa.  Jaime follows Brienne, who is obsessed with all things honour and justice, and is looking for Sansa. Brienne's sidekick is Pod, who is pretty much a 'mini me' to Ilyn: Baby Justice, if you will. (Can't speak, sword slung across his back, other stuff I can't remember.) Pod was also obsessively tracking Sansa, even before meeting Brienne.

Sansa doesn't have to choose to make justice her issue. Justice is coming for her, and it's arriving mob-handed.

11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I agree.  And what is 'justice'?  An arena in which competing parties vie for dominion over whose 'lies' will be reified as 'truth'; and conversely, whose 'truth' will be devalued as 'lies.'  

Justice is the evidence being brought to light. It's also the righting of wrongs, and the punishment of the criminal.

11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The reason Sansa is haunted by the spectre of the headsman is that she feels guilty -- for what..?

• Survivor's guilt.
• She was wilful and disobedient for the first time. Then her entire family was destroyed.
• She failed to be perfect. If she had been a better advocate in court for Arya and then Ned, she could have saved everything, right?

[Weirwood Ghost]

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

This also echos the (slaying) savage giant building castles made of snow

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Oh yes! The lemoncakes are passed before our eyes so many times, you'd have to be asleep not to wonder what the reason is. I get a slightly different idea from every iteration of the discussion (up to No. 5 now, I think). Now - a balance of sweet and sour has got to be a good thing, or at least a normal thing. People who choose sour red wine and people who choose sweet Arbor Gold all have a skewed, false idea of reality - too cynical or too optimistic - which is ultimately self-destructive.

Anyway, once you're awake to the idea of repetition as a signpost, you can't really shut your eyes again when other things repeat to excess - and it needn't be as blatant as lemoncakes.

Lots of room for interpretation, though, so it's no big deal. I think Sansa gets more foreshadowing than most because she's been on a very restricted, mostly unheroic path so far. When she finally comes out as a strong player, there will be a lot of surprised readers suddenly giving those metaphors a lot of attention.

(Unless she ends up on a spike, of course. I haven't totally ruled it out. )

When we see lemons, things don't usually end well... In Sansa I, Game 15, she was looking forward to lemon cakes in the queen's wheelhouse, but her day ended with her prince's loathing and contempt. Samwell's early childhood went from snitching lemon cakes to contempt, abuse, and banishment by his father. In Sansa II, Game 29, Sansa went from enjoying lemon cakes with Joffrey at the feast following the first day of jousting to being escorted back to her cell by the Hound. In Sansa III, Game 44, Sansa and Jeyne (poor Jeyne) looked for lemon cakes in the kitchen, but at the end of the chapter learned her father was sending her back to Winterfell. Sansa shared lemon cakes with the Tyrells before being forced to wed the imp. On the morning Sansa was forced to marry the imp, along with the new gown, Cersei sent her favorite scents for Sansa's use too. Of course, "Sansa chose a sharp sweet fragrance with a hint of lemon in it under the smell of flowers." Before donning the ugly little girl's face, the kindly man gave a girl a drink so tart it was like biting into lemon. That made "no one" think of Arya's sister, and Sansa's fondness for lemon cakes.

In Arya V, Game 65, Arya offered to trade a fat pigeon for a lemon, but ened up at her father's execution. Jeor Mormont drank lemon in his beer every day. He still had his own teeth but his men mutinied and murdered him. At Bitterbridge, Renly's bannermen feasted on lemon cakes. Of course, Renly's campaign ened shortly thereafter. As Davos sailed with Stannis's fleet into Blackwater Bay, he observed Aegon's High Hill, dark against a lemon sky. That's an odd description for a sky, no? As Davos turned downstream, the mouth of the Blackwater Rush had turned into the mouth of hell.

At Edmure's wedding feast Catelyn noted that Ryman Frey had bathed in lemon water but failed to mask his sour sweat, and that Roose smelled sweeter but no more pleasant. The Feast did not end on a happy note. At Joffrey's wedding feast Tyrion had a slice of pigeon pie covered with a spoon of lemon cream. A few paragraphs later Tyrion stood accused of regicide. That was the last of 18 dishes served to Joffrey just before he choked. Cersei drank lemon water so tart she had to spit it out the morning she learned that Tyrion had murdered their father.

Lem Lemoncloak just reeks of bitterness and disappointment, and Doran's Water Gardens smell of lemons and blood oranges. Anybody think Dorne is going end up happy with their blood and fire? In The Queenmaker, Arianne noticed that Darkstar preferred lemon water to summer wine, and she served lemonsweet to Myrcella before Darkstar cut off Myrcella's ear amidst lemon orchards watered by a spider's web of old canals. Arianne’s first meal while locked in the tower included kind roasted with lemon. And the soup at the feast to welcome Gregor's head was made with eggs and lemons. 

Stannis enjoys boiled eggs and lemon water for breakfast, and, well, I think we all know his end will be bitter and disappointing. In Jon IV, Dance 17, Stannis offers lemon water to Jon. Wisely, Jon refuses. Stannis drinks more.

Just after Tyrion plants the notion of sailing to Westeros without Daenerys in the noble lad's head, the merry band aboard the Shy Maid enjoy a pike with lemon juice, and they learn that Daenerys hasn't left Meereen. Aegon fatefully decides to go west insteaed of east. Anybody think Aegon will win the dance? And Tyrion decides to go whoring after dinner, and meets his new buddy Jorah. Tyrion suspected Yezzan was drinking lemon water as the yellow whale bid on him and Penny. Tyrion served Nurse lemonsweet with the mushrooms from Illyrio's garden.The Green Grace accepted a goblet of sweeetened lemon juice from the Queen's hand, just before infected corpses started flying over the walls. Oh, and guess what kind of trees Daenerys has in her terrace garden in Meereen?

When Cersei entered Maggy the Frog's tent, one of the eastern scents she smelled was lemongrass. Before the night was done Cersei would learn that Melara had a crush on Jaime, and Melara would die at the bottom of a well. 

[Springwatch]

@Lost Melnibonean A lot of bitter realities listed above! Reminds me of sayings about a bitter cup that must be drained to the dregs - Ned came close to it when he said he never asked for this cup to be passed to him.

I'm not sure Jon was wise to refuse the lemon water; it's possible that instead of avoiding the bitter future, he just won't see it coming.

[HallowedMarcus]

On 30/06/2017 at 5:59 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes the Giant is LF, and yes Sansa will kill him. 

I honestly can't believe people still argue against this. 

   With all due respect, I still doubt it. Not that LF is the Giant; I believe that without a doubt.

   However, the "seer' saw the Face of Sansa Stark killing LF ( i guess) and prophesied so like she saw the venom at her hair and prophecied. The conclusion that people like you think are that considering the purple serpent in her hair "did" Joffrey killing automatically she will kill the Giant (LF) too. Actually, they and you are making the same mistake and don't see (I guess) the beauty of the prophecy. Like she was not directly responsible for Joffrey's death, so Sansa won't be responsible for LF's one. Yes, she was wearing the venom on her her, but she did not know the jewelry on her hair was poison and it was the Queen of Thorns who knowingly put in Joffrey's goblet. So, actually, Sansa did not kill him.

   The same way the killer, Araya Stark, will do the killing using her (Sansa) face. It will be Sansa's Face, but actually, she won't kill him.  

   On both occasions, Lady Sansa is pure and innocent but is used to kill them.

[Makk]

15 minutes ago, HallowedMarcus said:

   With all due respect, I still doubt it. Not that LF is the Giant; I believe that without a doubt.

   However, the "seer' saw the Face of Sansa Stark killing LF ( i guess) and prophesied so like she saw the venom at her hair and prophecied. The conclusion that people like you think are that considering the purple serpent in her hair "did" Joffrey killing automatically she will kill the Giant (LF) too. Actually, they and you are making the same mistake and don't see (I guess) the beauty of the prophecy. Like she was not directly responsible for Joffrey's death, so Sansa won't be responsible for LF's one. Yes, she was wearing the venom on her her, but she did not know the jewelry on her hair was poison and it was the Queen of Thorns who knowingly put in Joffrey's goblet. So, actually, Sansa did not kill him.

   The same way the killer, Araya Stark, will do the killing using her (Sansa) face. It will be Sansa's Face, but actually, she won't kill him.  

   On both occasions, Lady Sansa is pure and innocent but is used to kill them.

The prophecy never claimed she did...

Quote

"I dreamt a wolf howling in the rain, but no one heard his grief," the dwarf woman was saying. "I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells. I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow." She turned her head sharply and smiled through the gloom, right at Arya. "You cannot hide from me, child. Come closer, now."

It just alluded to the fact she was at the feast carrying poison in her hair, which she was. The next bit however actually alludes to her with the verb "slaying" the savage giant. Now I am not saying exactly what slaying means but I do believe she will somehow defeat the savage giant who I believe is Littlefinger. Sansa is much more tied into the Littlefinger story arc than Arya is. Yes it's possible she will do the deed wearing Sansa face, but I don't really see the point and I don't think it is very likely. And would that mean Sansa has to die?

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

I just don't understand about the idea of Arya killing LF is she has had no connection to or history with LF whatsoever.  The vaguest connection she has to LF is that he's the current Lord of Harrenhal and she spent time at Harrenhal.  There is no indication in her arc that she will be travelling to the Vale at this time.  She has no reason to go there.  She has no idea about anything going on there nor is there anyone in her current arc that can give her relevant information about that.  I think if anything when she arrives in Westeros it will most likely be in the Riverlands.  People from her arc are already converging together there:  Gendry, the BwB, her un-Mom, not to mention Brienne who inadvertently wound up tracking Arya's path and who has relevant knowledge of Gendry's parentage.  She was present for the RW and the BwB are currently taking vengeance against the Frey's.  Unless something radically changes, we're being set up for a reunion for Arya there and still none of those people knows where Sansa actually is.  

On the other hand, Sansa has had numerous encounters with Littlefinger since she arrives in KL.  She's the spitting image of her mother.  She has insight into how his mind works.  She is his weakness.  You don't spend several books setting that up to mean nothing.  It may not mean that she literally kills him herself with a blade, but she is his undoing for sure.  I don't have a complete picture of what that actually looks like anymore than anyone else, but I just have a strong feeling Lady Forlorn is going to come into play at some point.  It's a giant killer sword with a ruby heart in the pommel that Sansa has noted several times.  I do however believe there's good evidence for the avalanche theory in the Vale which could slay the Giant's Lance.  Lyn Corbray is certainly the wild card in the Vale right now.  He's always looking for money, Sansa has a bounty on her, and he has a deep resentment for LF.  I don't think he knows who she is yet, but if he ever found out... 

30 minutes ago, Makk said:

Yes it's possible she will do the deed wearing Sansa face, but I don't really see the point and I don't think it is very likely. And would that mean Sansa has to die?

The FM do learn glamors and no one has to die for that.  Mel says a hunk of hair will do or some clothing.  Not that I think this is actually likely to happen, but just saying it isn't necessary.  

[HallowedMarcus]

24 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

There is no indication in her arc that she will be travelling to the Vale at this time.

    Arya Stark and Sansa might meet on Winterfell. Petyr Baelish in A Dance with Dragons reveals his plans to Sansa, that she should get married to the heir of the Vale of Arryn, Harrold Hardyng, and on her wedding reveal her true identity to the Lords of the Vale and reclaim Winterfell in her name; that the Lords of the Vale will probably back her claim as will her (future) betrothed obviously -his son would have claim on Winterfell and Vale. 

   They already left the Eyrie. The castle of snow could be Winterfell.

[Makk]

14 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

The FM do learn glamors and no one has to die for that.  Mel says a hunk of hair will do or some clothing.  Not that I think this is actually likely to happen, but just saying it isn't necessary.  

Firstly, I'm not convinced Arya will spend enough time with the faceless men to learn to do it the "magic" way.

Quote

"That's not how I meant. Jaqen used magic."
"All sorcery comes at a cost, child. Years of prayer and sacrifice and study are required to work a proper glamor."
"Years?" she said, dismayed.

But also we don't really know how the faceless men perform their most impressive galmors. Mel seemed to have a magical ruby, which GRRM constantly drew attention to, but there is never any indication Jaqen dis it the same way. The way the faceless man talks it does sound a bit different

Quote

"Mummers change their faces with artifice," the kindly man was saying, "and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with. Keep your eyes closed." 

They are an order of assassins and it would not surprise me if any face they take meant the original person had to die first.

Anyhow, I'm not going to claim it is beyond the realms of possibility that Arya can take Sansa's face without her dying, but it may be. And this is really the least of my reasons why I don't think it will be a trick to the prophecy.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

   With all due respect, I still doubt it. Not that LF is the Giant; I believe that without a doubt.

   However, the "seer' saw the Face of Sansa Stark killing LF ( i guess) and prophesied so like she saw the venom at her hair and prophecied. The conclusion that people like you think are that considering the purple serpent in her hair "did" Joffrey killing automatically she will kill the Giant (LF) too. Actually, they and you are making the same mistake and don't see (I guess) the beauty of the prophecy. Like she was not directly responsible for Joffrey's death, so Sansa won't be responsible for LF's one. Yes, she was wearing the venom on her her, but she did not know the jewelry on her hair was poison and it was the Queen of Thorns who knowingly put in Joffrey's goblet. So, actually, Sansa did not kill him.

   The same way the killer, Araya Stark, will do the killing using her (Sansa) face. It will be Sansa's Face, but actually, she won't kill him.  

   On both occasions, Lady Sansa is pure and innocent but is used to kill them.

And now we are three! 

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I just don't understand about the idea of Arya killing LF is she has had no connection to or history with LF whatsoever.  The vaguest connection she has to LF is that he's the current Lord of Harrenhal and she spent time at Harrenhal.  There is no indication in her arc that she will be travelling to the Vale at this time.  She has no reason to go there.  She has no idea about anything going on there nor is there anyone in her current arc that can give her relevant information about that.  I think if anything when she arrives in Westeros it will most likely be in the Riverlands.  People from her arc are already converging together there:  Gendry, the BwB, her un-Mom, not to mention Brienne who inadvertently wound up tracking Arya's path and who has relevant knowledge of Gendry's parentage.  She was present for the RW and the BwB are currently taking vengeance against the Frey's.  Unless something radically changes, we're being set up for a reunion for Arya there and still none of those people knows where Sansa actually is.  

On the other hand, Sansa has had numerous encounters with Littlefinger since she arrives in KL.  She's the spitting image of her mother.  She has insight into how his mind works.  She is his weakness.  You don't spend several books setting that up to mean nothing.  It may not mean that she literally kills him herself with a blade, but she is his undoing for sure.  I don't have a complete picture of what that actually looks like anymore than anyone else, but I just have a strong feeling Lady Forlorn is going to come into play at some point.  It's a giant killer sword with a ruby heart in the pommel that Sansa has noted several times.  I do however believe there's good evidence for the avalanche theory in the Vale which could slay the Giant's Lance.  Lyn Corbray is certainly the wild card in the Vale right now.  He's always looking for money, Sansa has a bounty on her, and he has a deep resentment for LF.  I don't think he knows who she is yet, but if he ever found out... 

The FM do learn glamors and no one has to die for that.  Mel says a hunk of hair will do or some clothing.  Not that I think this is actually likely to happen, but just saying it isn't necessary.  

Arya is all about vengence, no? If she were ever to learn of Petyr's betrayal of her father and the root of the destruction of her house, from, say, Tyrion or Sandor, or even from a servant of Him of Many Faces, whom do you think we would find listed first in Arya's prayer? 

[Winter's Cold]

Arya has actually assassinated people and gotten vengeance. Sansa has done none of that. That's why some readers believe that Arya will kill Littlefinger and not Sansa. Of the two Stark sisters, the only "slayer" is Arya.

[Ygrain]

I find the idea of Arya killing LF instead of Sansa pretty anticlimactic. What would the narrative purpose be here? Gotcha?

If Sansa is not supposed to get her hands dirty, then it suffices to give an order - if LF's betrayal of Ned becomes known, there would be plenty of willing hands to perform the task. Or she might use the hairnet and pull a Margaery after her "father" chokes on his supper. - But I do want to see the beheading!!!

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

6 hours ago, HallowedMarcus said:

   With all due respect, I still doubt it. Not that LF is the Giant; I believe that without a doubt.

   However, the "seer' saw the Face of Sansa Stark killing LF ( i guess) and prophesied so like she saw the venom at her hair and prophecied. The conclusion that people like you think are that considering the purple serpent in her hair "did" Joffrey killing automatically she will kill the Giant (LF) too. Actually, they and you are making the same mistake and don't see (I guess) the beauty of the prophecy. Like she was not directly responsible for Joffrey's death, so Sansa won't be responsible for LF's one. Yes, she was wearing the venom on her her, but she did not know the jewelry on her hair was poison and it was the Queen of Thorns who knowingly put in Joffrey's goblet. So, actually, Sansa did not kill him.

   The same way the killer, Araya Stark, will do the killing using her (Sansa) face. It will be Sansa's Face, but actually, she won't kill him.  

   On both occasions, Lady Sansa is pure and innocent but is used to kill them.

With all due respect, no. 

As has been pointed out the GoHH see's her at the feast with serpents in her hair, and then actively slaying the savage giant.  Two entirely different things. And In line with the actual events of the PW. She went to the wedding knowing the hair net meant Joffrey's downfall and her escape. She wore the hairnet in full knowledge that this would happen. She did not actively participate in his murder though.  Whereas the second half of the GoHH's dream has her actively doing the slaying. So It is safe to say she will slay the giant. and not a proxy. 

I don't think it likely at all that Arya will wear Sansa's face, for one Sansa would have to die for that to happen and I do not believe for one moment that Sansa is not going to make it to the end. And secondly The GoHH's dream is prophetic, she see's things in symbolism, if we look together at her dreams and Jojen's (who is our other example of greendreaming) then we see the dreams are largely played out through symbolism, and use things like House Sigils, the water crashing over the walls of WF, for instance, is the Iron Born taking the castle. The Woman that is a fish is Cat a Tully, her red tears are the rents in her face, the man with a crow on his shoulder is Euron Crow's eye, the dreams are quite clever in that they reveal the truth but in a manner which can be confusing. So IF the Maid was, in fact, Arya wearing Sansa's face or even just glamoured. Then her dream would reflect this. So say, a Maid in a mask slaying a giant, or a wild wolf dressed as a maiden. 

Thematically it makes no sense to have Arya kill LF. The narrative points unequivocally towards Sansa being his downfall. To turn around and have Arya do it is akin to laying the breadcrumbs to show the butler did it, then having the maid be revealed to have done it . Not how one writes a story. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

5 hours ago, Makk said:

Firstly, I'm not convinced Arya will spend enough time with the faceless men to learn to do it the "magic" way.

But also we don't really know how the faceless men perform their most impressive galmors. Mel seemed to have a magical ruby, which GRRM constantly drew attention to, but there is never any indication Jaqen dis it the same way. The way the faceless man talks it does sound a bit different

They are an order of assassins and it would not surprise me if any face they take meant the original person had to die first.

Anyhow, I'm not going to claim it is beyond the realms of possibility that Arya can take Sansa's face without her dying, but it may be. And this is really the least of my reasons why I don't think it will be a trick to the prophecy.

 

I've done a huge amount of research into the magic in ASOIAF. And it seems to me that the art of glamour requires the magic user to be both learned in the art and in possession of both a jewel of a type significant to the magic user and some personal artefact of their desired likeness. So far Arya has not learnt how to do a straight glamour, she has had the FM's Skin magic done to her and in that instance, it seems to be that there is symbolic cutting to the face and an application of an actual skin; the flayed face of some deceased person. Indicating a form of blood magic is being used. In this instance The deceased person's memories are accessible by the person wearing their skin. So wearing her sisters face would not only require Sansa to be dead, but it would require Arya to be able to handle being exposed to Sansa's internal psyche and memories without going mad. Or getting lost in them. So far the faces she has worn she has handled thememories OK, but we've seen that she has struggled I'm not sure she could cope with having her sisters and I really doubt that she would be able to maintain the seperation of mind required not to utterly loose herself in the face of her sister. Their past is too interwoven, their memories too shared.  We've seen in Mercy TWOW how 

Spoiler

She is very lost in Mercy and struggles to retain Arya within her mind. She absolutely has done so as we see in her persuit and killing of Raff. But if the face she wears is her sisters I am not sure she would be capable of not loosing her own self. Because until she happens across Raff, she is really struggling with who she is and what her name is. 

2

I wouldn't want that ending for either girl and I doubt that the story is going in that direcion. 

As to the magic. I have recently had some thoughts about the FM's face wearing and teh Bolton's Skin wearing and have concluded that it is possible that they are a similar magic rooted in the same principle.  The Bolton's persistant practice of flaying and wearing the skin of their enemies  seems highly likely to have some magical roots and the tent of skins describedin TWOIAF seems significant in the great lengths it toook to construct and the possibillities of sitting within it. If as I suspect all magic we see in series has multiple users spread acros the planet utalising the same magical principles in various forms and under various faiths then the Boltons having mastered the same Blood Magic as teh FM is not so far fetched. 

But I do think that all evidence we have regarding the FM's face wearing points to the skin coming directly from the deceased. So for this notion of Arya wearing Sansa's face to come to fruitition Sansa would need to die and and to do so in proximity to Arya for her to be able to flay her face off, I can't see how that will occur nor can I see Arya having the stomach to flay her dead sisters face from her skull. Let alone keep from loosing herself in her sisters face due to their memories being too intertwined to handle the magic which doing so unleashes. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

And if she learns about Sansa's betrayal of their father?

I think the plot demands a reckoning between the Ned's two little girls, but I don't think Arya would kill Sansa. 

[Lollygag]

4 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

And if she learns about Sansa's betrayal of their father?

And if they learn that Arya had three free magic kills and didn’t use them on Tywin, Cersei and Joff which would have drastically changed the fates of the family?

Let’s not blame children and teens for not having the perspective of adults, especially given that the adults in this series don’t have great perspective themselves.

Children’s survival depends on their immediate environment hence why Arya made her choice. It was understandable for a child her age and in her situation. Likewise Sansa. She had no idea and couldn’t have had any idea just what she was doing. Pre-teens and teenagers often attribute their parent’s decisions to exerting arbitrary power rather than the parents having a good reason for their choices which the teens just don’t understand. Sansa acted as a normal pre-teen who thought her father was being a jerk just ‘cause.

Given Ned’s mistakes, Catelyn’s stealing Tyrion, Robb’s marrying Jeyne, Jon not understanding politicking and getting himself stabbed likely compromising the security of the Wall, Bran learning to be a demi-god (major potential for mistakes there) and Rickon being extremely angry and out-of-control because everyone forgot him, I highly doubt any of the Starks are going to be in any position to get all judgy with the others without some major hypocrisy and double standards.

[Darksnider05]

Currently in the books Sansa has gone against family seriously twice, and is working on three depending her actions in the vale.  She's got a pattern and the excuses are running thin. 

[LynnS]

On 2017-07-02 at 6:00 PM, ravenous reader said:

Consider when Jaqen swears his allegiance to Arya in the godswood, he places his hand into the mouth of the weirwood, which symbolically implies the tree biting off the hand, for Arya's consumption!

Isn't it curious that Othor attempts to do the same thing with Jon during the famous battle in Mormont's quarters:
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

Dead Othor slammed into him, knocking him off his feet.

Jon's breath went out of him as the fallen table caught him between his shoulder blades. The sword, where was the sword? He'd lost the damned sword! When he opened his mouth to scream, the wight jammed its black corpse fingers into Jon's mouth. Gagging, he tried to shove it off, but the dead man was too heavy. Its hand forced itself farther down his throat, icy cold, choking him. Its face was against his own, filling the world. Frost covered its eyes, sparkling blue. Jon raked cold flesh with his nails and kicked at the thing's legs. He tried to bite, tried to punch, tried to breathe …

 

Othor doesn't succeed in placing his hand inside Jon's mouth.  Jon in turn vanquishes Othor by placing his own hand into the fire with the burning curtain.  There seems to be a contest between ice and fire for Jon's soul.  

[HallowedMarcus]

On 07/07/2017 at 0:36 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

And now we are three! 

      

On 07/07/2017 at 3:52 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

She went to the wedding knowing the hair net meant Joffrey's downfall and her escape. She wore the hairnet in full knowledge that this would happen.

   Full knowledge? Sansa used it because Dontos insisted her using it, telling her that it had a kind of magic proprieties that would aid her escape. The only knowledge she had is that the wedding day would be the day of her escape from King's Landing, that after it, she was supposed to go her place of prayer (weirwood/oak tree) and await her 'floriant knight'.

   I quote from A Strom of Swords:

Quote

   Ser Dontos had said the hair net was magic, that it would take her home. He told her she must wear it tonight at Joffrey's wedding.

   Only afterward on LF's ship she finds out the necklace did not belong to Dontos family jewelry and that it had poison in them and that the Queen of Thorns used one of them to poison Joffrey. She then remembered the QoT to straightened her hair net.

   No, she had no full knowledge, she did not know her hair net contained poison, that Lady Olenna Redwyne would remove one its stones to poison the King.