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The First Bloodrider

Jon should bend his knees.

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On 8/8/2017 at 8:34 AM, RhaenysB said:

Jon should obviously bend the knee, but he won't because his and the other lords' pride is more important than their survival. The bannermen are dumb and they refuse to understand what Jon has been telling them. To stick together and not fight amongst themselves. They need Daenerys's help and they have nothing to offer in return. Hence, the answer is accepting Daenerys's terms and bending their bloody knees or dying when the Others come and they have no fire power or obsidian. 

Yeah, you assume that Dany can defeat the White Walkers all by herself. And you assume that Dany has no incentive  to stop the white walkers in the North, rather than letting them get into the South where they would likely do much more damage because the South’s greater population.

These are two highly questionable propositions.

And of course, as usual, by some, competing disregarding the role of Bran in all this.

Now personally I think a re-unification of the North with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms could work as 1) Dany has acknowledged Aerys was a nut, 2) and acknowledged his crimes. Those acknowledgements would seem to me to go along way in about bringing an agreement between the North and Dany.

However, if I were Jon I’d probably bulk at the idea that House Stark owes House Targaryen fealty forever, no matter the circumstances. And it seems to me, that this is a point where many of Dany’s fan’s get all mixed up. Nobody would seriously contest the idea that Dany had the right to do a permanent regime change in SB, but then for some odd reason those same people would deny the people in Westeros, specifically the Northeners, the same right when faced with tyranny.

And Dany accusing other people of “pride” is really like the pot calling the kettle black.

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39 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

I had not thought about Jons claim being stronger than Dany, all the more reason form them to get married

 

14 minutes ago, LyannaStargaryen said:

Even without Dany (or Jon) knowing about Jon's Targaryen father, legit or not, I can't understand why any of their advisers haven't already jumped on the idea of a political marriage.  At the end of season 6, she leaves Daario in Meeren, partially to keep herself open to politically advantageous marriage.  And there literally is not a single more eligible and more politically rewarding man to marry in Westeros at this point other than the King in the North.  It defeats the bend the knee problem: North and South united as one but without the pesky fealty problem, a marriage of equals.

I'm not sure how Davos hasn't proposed this Tyrion or Varys at this point or vice versa.  I mean, yay, he noticed Jon watching her.  But from Day 1 on Dragonstone, how did this not come to mind?

 

14 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

For someone who has lost all her Westerosi allies, Dany keeps adressing Jon from a position of power she no longer has, and doesn't display the characteristics of a ruler who cares for their subjects more than for their own pride. Davos should teach her the same lesson he taught Stannis - you want to be king, you show that you care. 

That said, Jon should totally bend the knee if it coud save the North, but he should promise to do so after the Others are defeated, because if they are not, it does not matter whose skeleton sits the IT. 

But yeah, an alliance confirmed by a wedding would be the way. Cersei has led the way here, after all.

Why should Jon marry a women who can't get any children?

 

35 minutes ago, Styl7 said:

Even if Jon has a stronger claim(as many of you keep saying), it can be questioned. He don't have the Targaryen looks so all his claims relies on Bran and the words of other men..

but still a wedding would solve all of this...

Just my idea again;

I think Bran will inform Jon (maybe this season?) about his heritage. But again, this doesn't prove anything especially because of his looks, but also about his legitimacy (even if he is child of Rhaegar, as far as everybody knows, he would be a bastard of Rhaegar and Lyanna). 

However, I don't think Sam is in oldtown just to find out about the dragonglass (which he already knew from Stannis) nor to heal Jorah, but I think he (or maybe Gilly) will find proof of Rhaegar & Lyanna's marriage. 

Just not sure what proof they will get for Jon being their kid though, but I guess those two puzzles do add up, maybe together with howland reed.

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I agree he should bend the knee because that's the only way Dany will help him. Jon can see the bigger picture. 

But it bugs me so much that after everything Jon said, after everything Dany saw, the cave, Jon giving his advice and bla bla bla and she's still 'bend the knee bend the knee' like jfc let it go. 

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8 minutes ago, Attitude said:

 

 

Why should Jon marry a women who can't get any children?

 

Just my idea again;

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I think Bran will inform Jon (maybe this season?) about his heritage. But again, this doesn't prove anything especially because of his looks, but also about his legitimacy (even if he is child of Rhaegar, as far as everybody knows, he would be a bastard of Rhaegar and Lyanna). 

However, I don't think Sam is in oldtown just to find out about the dragonglass (which he already knew from Stannis) nor to heal Jorah, but I think he (or maybe Gilly) will find proof of Rhaegar & Lyanna's marriage. 

Just not sure what proof they will get for Jon being their kid though, but I guess those two puzzles do add up, maybe together with howland reed.

 

Well for starters, Jon has no idea she is barren.

But more importantly, marrying Dany = DRAGONS to fight the White Walkers, which again has been shown to be the number one thing Jon cares about.  Between that fact, and the whole Night's Watch vow "I shall... father no children" plus his belief he's bastard and his great fear and revulsion to ever birth a child that would be given the name of a bastard, Jon is not exactly thinking about propagating his own line.  And he knows Bran is alive (although not a detached, tree touching Professor X), so there is a Stark who theoretically could pass on the name and ensure the line of Starks does not die out (since girls don't carry the name).

I do agree that Jon is likely to find out about his heritage, but I think a political marriage between Jon and Dany is heavily hinted at as to almost be inevitable on the show at least, and from the show's laying out of events and facts, it does make perfect sense.

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22 hours ago, Heavy D said:

Jon has no more excuses.  Queen Daenerys agreed to help.  Jon should bend his knees and apologize to Dany for being stubborn.  It's time to clear the rubble in the north that is Sansa.  Bend your knees, Jon.

 

Why are we only asking for Jon's excuses not to bend the knee? Why aren't we asking why Dany requires someone to bow to her?

If your answer is because it is her birthright or her Targaryen ancestry, then who is being stubborn now?

If your answer is because she has the dragons/dragon steel/resource, then how is she a queen who cares for the people is she chooses to withhold resources to aid them?

Why is her help contingent on something as petty as bowing and scraping if she aspires to be a better ruler?

Is her ego greater than her people's survival?

 

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Sure he can bend the knee, the Northerners have 3 other Stark children they'd name King or Queen in his place. Something Dany fails to understand is that her family is not liked by the North after all they have done to the Starks. 

What's truly disturbing is after the cave scene Dany is convinced the White Walkers are real yet will only fight them if Jon bends the knee. So she's basically staying "I believe the zombies are coming for you but I won't help a Kingdom that is not sworn to me."

Why doesn't Dany join the North against the threat that is coming for all of humanity and prove herself worthy so they willingly want to bend the knee to her? 

 

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37 minutes ago, Attitude said:

Why should Jon marry a women who can't get any children?

Do you really think that the matter of succession is on the top list of Jon's problems? Currently he needs dragons, not babies, and if he doesn't get the dragons, there won't be any babies, either.

Besides, Jon doesn't know about Dany's supposed infertility, and we don't know if Mirri's prophecy was even correct, anyway.

 

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1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

Do you really think that the matter of succession is on the top list of Jon's problems? Currently he needs dragons, not babies, and if he doesn't get the dragons, there won't be any babies, either.

 

True. As Jon said in the previous episode when Davos was interrogating him about his school boy crush on Daenerys, he doesn't have time for stuff like that.

What use is finding love or looking to produce an heir if the White Walkers are going to kill everyone anyway?

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58 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Sure he can bend the knee, the Northerners have 3 other Stark children they'd name King or Queen in his place. Something Dany fails to understand is that her family is not liked by the North after all they have done to the Starks. 

What's truly disturbing is after the cave scene Dany is convinced the White Walkers are real yet will only fight them if Jon bends the knee. So she's basically staying "I believe the zombies are coming for you but I won't help a Kingdom that is not sworn to me."

Why doesn't Dany join the North against the threat that is coming for all of humanity and prove herself worthy so they willingly want to bend the knee to her? 

 

That's the whole point, actually. Jon told her during their first meeting - "why should he bend the knee? He doesn't know her" and so far she doesn't deserve that, at least yet.
I totally agree that she just doesn't understand the difference between Essos and Westeros and people.
 

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No, he shouldn't, definitely not now. It would be like "ok, I tried what I could do with you, obviously you're more stubborn than I am, so I give up because I'm so desperate".

Ever since their meeting, Jon decided to act like equal to Daenerys, not as a servant or as a vassal. Jon has already shown that his pride isn't the most important thing to him when he came all the way south to ask for help. Yet Daenerys is all "I have dragons, sucker" and "I was born to rule the 7 Kingdoms and I will repeat it forever". Daenerys should offer a compromise because this "bend the knee or f*** off" attitude isn't getting her any allies.

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2 hours ago, Attitude said:

I think there is a different reason why this topic keeps coming up; 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Jon is the son of rhaegar (confirmed by HBO). I think his legitimacy will be proven at some point, which makes him the 'rightful heir' before Daenerys (son of heir goes before sister of heir). Which will resulting in Dany having to 'bend the knee'. I think that's the reason why she has mentioned it three (or 2?) times already [/spoi

Spoiler

The only way, Jon has a bigger claim than Dany would be, if R+L got married.

Otherwise Jon turns from Stark Bastard to Targaryen Bastard.

And a Bastard never has the highest Claim until the King admit him as an true heir.

 

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1 hour ago, LyannaStargaryen said:

Well for starters, Jon has no idea she is barren.

But more importantly, marrying Dany = DRAGONS to fight the White Walkers, which again has been shown to be the number one thing Jon cares about.  Between that fact, and the whole Night's Watch vow "I shall... father no children" plus his belief he's bastard and his great fear and revulsion to ever birth a child that would be given the name of a bastard, Jon is not exactly thinking about propagating his own line.  And he knows Bran is alive (although not a detached, tree touching Professor X), so there is a Stark who theoretically could pass on the name and ensure the line of Starks does not die out (since girls don't carry the name).

I do agree that Jon is likely to find out about his heritage, but I think a political marriage between Jon and Dany is heavily hinted at as to almost be inevitable on the show at least, and from the show's laying out of events and facts, it does make perfect sense.

True, as far as we know, Jon isn't aware of this.

I'm not talking about the Stark line. If Jon is legit (which I assume will be proven), he can easily overcome his bastard theory part by martying anyone who wants to (I wouldn't even be surprised if a Stark lady would become his wife). 

Regarding marriage with Dany, see below.

55 minutes ago, Samwell_Tarly said:

Please provide me evidence for this......

There is no evidence in the show either, but it's quite clear that she is (several scenes with daario with no result of pregnancy, Dany states it herself, etc.). I don't feel the need to provide more 'evidence' than the show itself already does. 

35 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Do you really think that the matter of succession is on the top list of Jon's problems? Currently he needs dragons, not babies, and if he doesn't get the dragons, there won't be any babies, either.

Besides, Jon doesn't know about Dany's supposed infertility, and we don't know if Mirri's prophecy was even correct, anyway.

 

No, not at this point, that's true. However, I do think this is how the story is supposed to play out (Jon being the true heir, tPtwP, Azor Ahai, etc.)

I'm not saying they won't get married. I'm just telling what I am expecting regarding heritage. Hell, I can definetely see Jon fall in love with Dany and marry her

and maybe then kill her like Nissa Nissa to create Lightbringer

However, this is pure speculation and I don't support this totally either. However, the fact that Dany calls herself 'the last targaryen' and claims the IT because of that,

 it would make it very ironic for Jon to actually be the real heir and not her (and that would mean she would have to bend the knee). It just fits the picture IMO

4 minutes ago, Marlom said:
  Reveal hidden contents

The only way, Jon has a bigger claim than Dany would be, if R+L got married.

Otherwise Jon turns from Stark Bastard to Targaryen Bastard.

And a Bastard never has the highest Claim until the King admit him as an true heir.

 

If you read the eniter spoiler you see that's part of my assumption.

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59 minutes ago, The Great Udder said:

 

Why are we only asking for Jon's excuses not to bend the knee? Why aren't we asking why Dany requires someone to bow to her?

If your answer is because it is her birthright or her Targaryen ancestry, then who is being stubborn now?

If your answer is because she has the dragons/dragon steel/resource, then how is she a queen who cares for the people is she chooses to withhold resources to aid them?

Why is her help contingent on something as petty as bowing and scraping if she aspires to be a better ruler?

Is her ego greater than her people's survival?

 

Good questions. 

All I see is Dany demanding his and The North loyalty, without showing why she deserves it...

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4 minutes ago, Fexyr said:

Good questions. 

All I see is Dany demanding his and The North loyalty, without showing why she deserves it...

Irrelavant of Jon bending the knee or not

Why should she show she deserves it, he's offered nothing to her. He is unwilling to bend the knee and wants all the dragonglass from her mountain underneath Dragonstone. What has she gained, sweet F.a. 

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Guys even if Rhaegar married Lyanna, Jon's claim is still questionable. Polygamy wasn't acceptable in Westetos at that time. Even if Jon try to deny the throne from Daenerys(I know he won't) Daenerys can deny his claim too. Who would you believe to be a true Targaryen? The black-haired Jon Snow, or Daenerys, a blonde girl that gave birth to dragons after 300 years?

We all argue.. Some of us about Daenerys was right to ask Jon to bend the knee so she can help him, and some other that the bend the knee stuff is all about Daenerys being an arrogant bitch.

All of us (including me) ignore what will happen.

WE SAW WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN THE HOUSE OF THE UNDYING

We saw the throne room filled with snow, we saw Daenerys walking towards the Iron Throne.. When she almost reached the IT, she turn her back to it and left.

When the Winter come close to Daenerys she will do her part for the Great War..

The red priestesses are coming for Volantis to help her..

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12 minutes ago, Fexyr said:

Good questions. 

All I see is Dany demanding his and The North loyalty, without showing why she deserves it...

And what about Jon asking her army and dragons, asking her to give up the iron throne, to help him win a war with mythical creatures he claimed to see..  See my answer above

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47 minutes ago, Gala said:

That's the whole point, actually. Jon told her during their first meeting - "why should he bend the knee? He doesn't know her" and so far she doesn't deserve that, at least yet.
I totally agree that she just doesn't understand the difference between Essos and Westeros and people.
 

That was their first meeting. Now he is actually starting to know her both by talking to Dany herself and as Tyrion suggested by talking to the people close to Dany such as Missandei.

 

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1 minute ago, Styl7 said:

Guys even if Rhaegar married Lyanna, Jon's claim is still questionable. Polygamy wasn't acceptable in Westetos at that time. Even if Jon try to deny the throne from Daenerys(I know he won't) Daenerys can deny his claim too. Who would you believe to be a true Targaryen? The black-haired Jon Snow, or Daenerys, a blonde girl that gave birth to dragons after 300 years?

Who cares about names or who you believe is a true Targaryen etc. Daenerys can not deny his claim or vice versa, it does not work like that. Daenerys claim is questionable. Robert Baratheon took the throne from Aerys, and Viserys & Daenerys were exiled surely nulifying their right and claim.  

1 minute ago, Styl7 said:

We all argue.. Some of us about Daenerys was right to ask Jon to bend the knee so she can help him, and some other that the bend the knee stuff is all about Daenerys being an arrogant bitch.

Daenerys is right to ask Jon to bend the knee and in theory he should to get what he wants, her to fight for him and the dragonglass. But he doesnt and in my opinion was right not to do so and should never.

1 minute ago, Styl7 said:

All of us (including me) ignore what will happen.

WE SAW WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN THE HOUSE OF THE UNDYING

We saw the throne room filled with snow, we saw Daenerys walking towards the Iron Throne.. When she almost reached the IT, she turn her back to it and left.

When the Winter come close to Daenerys she will do her part for the Great War..

The red priestesses are coming for Volantis to help her..

Daenerys is not destined to sit on the Iron Thone.

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