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Dawn of Fyre

Aegon and Daenerys: King and Queen of Westeros?

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3 minutes ago, Newstar said:

It would need a time jump, as would any scenario where Dany gets pregnant, bears a living child and dies.

Well, it took two seasons for the wights to get from Hardhome to the Wall. They can take 9 months to get from the Wall to Winterfell

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I would rather see Jon paired with almost anyone than Dany. The only pairing that would disturb me as much or more is Jon and Arya. Blech 

 

incest has has never been portrayed as a positive in the books or the show. I don't get why people think the story is saying incest is ok; the opposite has always been true. 

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1 minute ago, Snormund said:

I would rather see Jon paired with almost anyone than Dany. The only pairing that would disturb me as much or more is Jon and Arya. Blech 

 

incest has has never been portrayed as a positive in the books or the show. I don't get why people think the story is saying incest is ok; the opposite has always been true. 

Didn't you just complain about people complaining about your complaint about Jon+Dany?

If it bugs you, disengage from that particular topic and move on to a different debate.  There's no reason to beat a dead horse if the end result doesn't change.  

There are so many other things to discuss and debate about the show.  Find on that doesn't drive you crazy. 

Thats why I try to avoid all the alternate hidden Targ and Jon parentage theories.  They drive me nuts. 

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57 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

I don't think so.  They've already set the ground work for his acceptance of the inevitable reveal. 

Just look to his conversation with Theon. 

"You're a Greyjon, but you're also a Stark because Ned Stark was more a father to you than Baelon ever was."  (Paraphrasing of course) 


Yes, they've laid the foundation for him coming to terms with who he is in this conversation.
I still think he will hit hard by it, but ultimately he will realize that it won't change who he is. 

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I´m 100 percent sure that if there is Jon/Dany child he/she will survive, because GRRM loves his Targarien´s and he will not kill both Dany and her child and killing just the child would have very little impact. But because this is GOT and there are no happy endings it also means either Jon or Dany will for sure die before the end.

Jon - he is already living on a borrowed time. He was brought back and I doubt it was so he can conceive another Targarien or die of old age as the new king of Westeros. Him dying some heroic death, probably just before the war is over and he finally accepts and admits he still wants to be with Dany even if they are related makes perfect sense. 

Dany - I think Dany dying during the childbirth is probably the most expected and predictable end right now. She could also die during some battle, but I don´t think she will spend much time on Drogon after she starts show and she can´t die until her time comes, so her killing is kind of tricky. I think her surviving and probably creating some kind of council which will rule in her name while she and her child return to Esos could be the bittersweet end GRRM promised. Depending on timeline, there is also chance she will not even know she is pregnant until Jon dies and the war is over. That would make Jon´s decision to be with her much more poignant than if he already knows. 

Anyway, here is my prediction:

Jon, Dany and the child all survives - 20 percent (it actually would be the most shocking end ever)

Jon and the child or Dany and the child dies - 10 percent

Jon dies, Dany and the child survives - 60 percent

Dany dies, Jon and the child survives - 40 percent

only the child survives - 30 percent

 

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Jon dies defeating the Night King, Dany dies in childbirth, Cersei defeated, Iron Bank forecloses on Westeros, plutocrats come to power, ushering in the modern age. The wheel is broken. Fin.

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Many of the young characters are morphing into the older ones we've lost; taking their place. 

The Lannisters are a virus to the Seven Kingdom. None will sit on the throne. 

No Targ will either, I don't think that's how it will end. That's far too "happily ever after" for this story. 

 

I think we'll get:

Jon Snow as Warden of the North.

Arya in The Vale.

Sam as a Maester.

Tormund//Pip/Yara all Northern Bannermen.

Gendry on the throne with Sansa by his side to solidify the north and south.

Davos as the hand of the king.

Brienne leading the Kingsguard.

A second "Promise me" scene whereby we lose Daenerys, and baby Targ is raised in the north by Jon as a nobody, to protect his identity and save him/her from a more complicated life. But as far as Dany's dreams and sacrifices for the throne, they were all for nothing  

Tyrion in Essos raising his niece or nephew to think they are the rightful heir to the throne. He's bitter. The dream for the continent that he wanted his gone. His brother and sister are dead. 

The "wheel" isn't broken, it keeps on turning. There's still the threat of unrest and talk of "Usurpers". 

 

The dead: Cersei (childbirth to a daughter), Jaime (killing The Night's King, possibly saving Bran by using Oath Keeper on him), Jorah (saving Dany), Daenerys (childbirth), the Mountain (in the horriblest way possible), the Hound (saving Brienne), Dondarrion (like a BOSS), Euron (by Theon), Theon (saving Jon), Qyburn (eaten).

Varys, Davos and Bronn live.

That's far bleaker than any other ending such as happy Targaryen family ruling Westeros. Hence I think things are more likely to go in a direction such as this.

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3 hours ago, Snormund said:

I would rather see Jon paired with almost anyone than Dany. The only pairing that would disturb me as much or more is Jon and Arya. Blech 

 

incest has has never been portrayed as a positive in the books or the show. I don't get why people think the story is saying incest is ok; the opposite has always been true. 

Well if this is the Wars of the Roses they have to breed Henry VIII, a crazy, murderous monster. Basically another Maegor. 

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4 hours ago, Newstar said:

It would need a time jump, as would any scenario where Dany gets pregnant, bears a living child and dies.

This would happen after the war against the Night King then, unless that war stretches over years. And if it happens after the war, she would only die in childbirth. And I'm not sure the show would do that. 

We'll see.

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I wouldn't be surprised if that's how it ends. I also think that Daenerys will have Jon's child just because of the sheer amount of unsubtle foreshadowing. But I also expect her to do something. They've brought up the 'wheel' too many times this season for it to not amount to anything in the end. It's setting up for Daenerys to make major changes to the structure of Westeros and I'm not sure what that is. 

To me, that means she can't just change which houses rule what. The Tyrells and Baratheons are gone but new houses could easily replace them. I think she'd have to fundamentally change the way the feudal system works. I'm not sure how much the TV show would really go into this so we'd probably have to wait for the books to know how Westeros will change in detail. The continent is set up to have some new blood with Dothraki and Wildings that will eventually intermix with the local populations so there's that along with the destruction of much of that land.

Just one suggestion: but maybe an enlightened monarchy a la Catharine the Great or Fredrick the Great? Basically what Egg (Aegon V) tried doing but didn't have the dragons to back him up

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7 hours ago, Snormund said:

I would rather see Jon paired with almost anyone than Dany. The only pairing that would disturb me as much or more is Jon and Arya. Blech 

 

incest has has never been portrayed as a positive in the books or the show. I don't get why people think the story is saying incest is ok; the opposite has always been true. 

The books aren't a set of moral standards. Just because something happens doesn't mean George wants people to go out and do it. I'm pretty sure most people can watch fiction without being tempted to act how the scenes from it. Him having an aunt and nephew banging doesn't mean he's saying you should go out and screw your aunt. It's just a part of the story he's telling lol

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I suspect the Jon/Dany storyline follows the myth of the Azor Ahai mythology.  He had to kill his beloved wife Nissa Nissa in order to properly forge the sword that saves them all.  So, one of them is Azor Ahai and the other is Nissa Nissa.  The baby will live.  As an aside, those of you freaking out over the incest need to remember we are talking about a Dragon story and seriously get over yourselves.  

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Actually, an edit to my predictions. 

I think Gendry will go gaga when he sees Sansa, (which Arya will find amusing), and we'll get legitimised Gendry and Sansa Baratheon (after all) on the throne together. Arya will be Warden of the Vale. 

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4 minutes ago, Lanie A said:

He had to kill his beloved wife Nissa Nissa in order to properly forge the sword that saves them all.

You mean like what Rhaegar did to Lyanna?

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So I'm by no means a fan of incest, don't support or encourage it but I feel people reactions to Jon and Dany incest wise is a bit strong. I think nephew and aunt is at least better than twins/brother and sister. And if we compare to real world GOT would be similar to medieval times where royals intermarrying amongst blood lines was fairly common. Even as recently as Queen Victoria (only a bit over 100 years ago) married her first cousin and had 9 children that went on to become parts of royal houses all over Europe and now we make tv shows and movies about their great love story. 

Also all those in westeros are all probably a bit related already anyways (at least from the prominent houses). As sons and daughters of prominent houses only marry sons and daughters of other prominent houses - and there aren't that many of those. 

So while it is a bit weird and certainly not as desirable as if they were unrelated I don't really see the big deal, as long as they don't have two kids who go on to marry each other prolly fine genetically speaking. 

I think it's obvious she will get pregnant, and Jon will marry her  (or at least intend to if they don't die first) either for honour to not have the kid a bastard, love, or political alliance or all three. Though really a marriage between them made political sense anyway. She said to Dario she needed to make alliance through marriage and even before they got all lovey the king in the north makes the most sense. 

 

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Hope I'm not bursting any bubbles with this but...

The series has been built up and focused on so much treachery and lust for power that it would be weak to end it all with rainbows and butterflies with a loving king and queen ruling over a happy serfdom - I don't believe that's what GRRM had in mind for the original series and I don't think DnD are going to change it. I genuinely believe it can only end in a complete dissolution of the current sociopolitical framework - no more kings and queens and lords and knights. The army of the dead is a metaphor for them all to realise the futility of their bickering for power - They've all said it multiple times - What's the point of ruling if there's nothing to rule or we're all dead? I wouldn't be surprised if most of them died.

This is how I envision it occuring: Jon, after learning that he is 'rightful king' of the '7 kingdoms' will himself decline, give a big speech about how all of this fighting and politics was pointless and dissolve royalty/feudalism himself. After all, it's very much in his personality to not want to rule - It'll be revealed he's Targaryen but he's not going to do a complete 180 and take it on like it's his birthright. To him, he's a Bastard and the son of Ned Stark through and through. Westeros will be 7 or 1 large free kingdom(s), much like Essos' free cities.

Just an opinion of course... :)

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11 hours ago, Newstar said:

I agree. Tyrion in 7x06 said that Aegon the Conqueror built the wheel. Another Targ monarch would merely be continuing what Aegon had set up.

With that said, anyone who thinks we aren't getting a miracle Jonerys baby is kidding himself.

I think Jon and Dany's fates are going to be the same: either they both live, or they both die. Ice and Fire, duality, blah blah blah. And I gotta say, there have been many hints that both of them are doomed, particularly for Dany. (It's looking like death by arrow while riding Drogon at this point, given the multiple references in S7, which would also conveniently clear the way for Jon to ride Drogon, which has also been hinted.)

I don't think that's a hint of Jon riding Drogon but of Jon's growing closeness to Dany and his Targ heritage.  

Tyrion petting the dragons the previous season wasn't a hint of him riding them but that the dragons sensed that Tyrion was a friend that wanted to help their mother.  

I'm sure next season we'll have a scene of Dany petting Ghost, showing the growing bond she has with Jon.  

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6 hours ago, NexivRed said:

Actually, an edit to my predictions. 

I think Gendry will go gaga when he sees Sansa, (which Arya will find amusing), and we'll get legitimised Gendry and Sansa Baratheon (after all) on the throne together. Arya will be Warden of the Vale. 

Based on what exactly? 

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5 hours ago, U-238A said:

Hope I'm not bursting any bubbles with this but...

The series has been built up and focused on so much treachery and lust for power that it would be weak to end it all with rainbows and butterflies with a loving king and queen ruling over a happy serfdom - I don't believe that's what GRRM had in mind for the original series and I don't think DnD are going to change it. I genuinely believe it can only end in a complete dissolution of the current sociopolitical framework - no more kings and queens and lords and knights. The army of the dead is a metaphor for them all to realise the futility of their bickering for power - They've all said it multiple times - What's the point of ruling if there's nothing to rule or we're all dead? I wouldn't be surprised if most of them died.

This is how I envision it occuring: Jon, after learning that he is 'rightful king' of the '7 kingdoms' will himself decline, give a big speech about how all of this fighting and politics was pointless and dissolve royalty/feudalism himself. After all, it's very much in his personality to not want to rule - It'll be revealed he's Targaryen but he's not going to do a complete 180 and take it on like it's his birthright. To him, he's a Bastard and the son of Ned Stark through and through. Westeros will be 7 or 1 large free kingdom(s), much like Essos' free cities.

Just an opinion of course... :)

That will not happen. George wrote the novels based on historical events. And the dissolving of monarchy into democracy - or constitutional monarchy took centuries. The Enlightenment period needed to occur for thinkers and philosophers to realise that they needed to choose their own rulers, and that that was what was best for the nation.

In Westeros, there is no such movement; there are no peasant revolts against the monarchy, none that are based on democratic ideals. There needs to be a foundation for democracy to occur.

The best case scenario is Westeros is one where the nation is unified under one rule again - A Targaryen rule. And through that rule, changes will occur to the political system that will favor the lower classes more. And once generations pass, and there is a pseudo-Enlightenment period, people will then go for a more democratic system. I think Daenerys will set the stage, this democratic foundation, for future generation.

Democracy in Westeros will take centuries. They cannot just force this into the nation and expect there to be no political chaos. Sure, you can introduce a system where people elect the rulers. But you don't actually think the peasants would get a proper voice? Lords with money will bride the lower classes, and there would be corruption. - Research the Roman Republic. I've done some uni course on the period. Those who gained power were always from the elite class, the high-born with deep pockets. They bribed the people with festivals and food hand-outs. The same would occur here.

Don't expect there to be a democracy in Westeros akin to the democracy we have around the world right now. it took over two thousand years for democratic ideals to become the democracy we know today. So, you can't expect Daenerys Targaryen to introduce democracy into Westeros within a few years of taking power. Jesus, that would be so unrealistic that the show would be criticized hard for such an implausibility.

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I don't think Jon rides Drogon either. I saw a theory that I liked that one reason the show couldn't have Jon ride away to safety with everyone else in 706 is because he will ride Rhaegal. If he had ridden Drogon, Rhaegal wouldn't except him as his rider. We know what happened to Rhaenyra's son when he tried to mount a dragon that wasn't his own.

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