An invasion of Ice - the river problem

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 9/21/2017 at 3:52 AM, SirArthur said:

This is an amazing find as it lines up so well with other things especially if the latitude is followed to the east and west. And finally I have a use for this quote:

 Those born and raised in Oldtown could tell the time of day by where that shadow fell. Some claimed a man could see all the way to the Wall from the top. - A Feast for Crows - Prologue

I'll be honest, I cannot see any way in which that quote is relevant to this discussion. I've missed things before though.

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I'll be honest, I cannot see any way in which that quote is relevant to this discussion. I've missed things before though.

Is this a thing on westeros.org ? Discussion purity and paternalism of a thread creator in his own thread ? 

[Universal Sword Donor]

9 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Is this a thing on westeros.org ? Discussion purity and paternalism of a thread creator in his own thread ? 

No I'd appreciate being told why you used that quote. I mean, if you just like that quote and wanted to put it in a random post, go for it! But it doesn't make any sense from where I'm sitting. You used it for a reason. Typically when you include a quote or make a point, you say why.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

On 9/25/2017 at 5:22 PM, SirArthur said:

Then they have exactly the water problem. Why should they fight there at all ? Plus why would you fight fire on a thin layer of frozen ice ? 

There may have been a narrow bridge of land/very shallow water before the sea level rose (especially during the LN with all the extra water freezing), like the Arm of Dorne/Stepstones area. A lot can change in 10,000 years. Like if you go look at Thermopylae today the beach is way wider than it was 2500 years ago (opposite situation).

[Clegane'sPup]

9 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I'll be honest, I cannot see any way in which that quote is relevant to this discussion. I've missed things before though.

I agree on both items.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

On 9/25/2017 at 4:55 PM, falcotron said:

Actually, that's not entirely clear. The only real evidence for that is when Yandel says:

But he's saying that not just the Wall, but the Watch itself was born in the aftermath of the Long Night. And we know that isn't true. Earlier, he tells us that the Watch was created to fight the Battle for the Dawn that ended the Long Night:

The most likely interpretation is that first the Watch banded together to defeat the Others, and then Brandon helped them (and the people of the North, and the Children and the giants) built the Wall in case the Others came back.

Yes, that is the interpretation I was referring to. And even without that more explicit explanation from TWOIAF, it really wouldn't make much sense for the NW (or other people) to have built the Wall before the Others attacked in the LN. As for the NW, their oath refers to them being the watchers on the walls (more than 1 wall) which would be a weird oath if they already had the Wall when they were formed, so that also supports the likely interpretation. Again, the point being that as far as we can tell, the Wall has never been used to stop the Others, so we really don't know if that is its true purpose.

On 9/25/2017 at 4:55 PM, falcotron said:

But it's not impossible that they raised the Wall, or at least the magic and stone foundations of it, during the war, and only won the Battle for the Dawn afterward. It doesn't seem nearly as likely, but I don't think it would actually contradict anything we've been told.

Well, not technically impossible but I don't see how it would be practical to start building the Wall until after you drive the Others north of it, which would effectively constitute "winning" the Battle for the Dawn.

[the trees have eyes]

Rivers freeze completely in the far north / south of our own world during winter but you don't have to go to Alaska or Siberia to find rivers freezing over with the current still flowing beneath.  During bad winters in the medieval / early modern period the Thames would freeze over and there are accounts of people holding markets on the frozen river as well as cute pictures of people ice skating in 19th centrury times.  Ditto the Hudson in the US.  The North Sea can sometimes freeze over (briefly) in winter even today (well late 20th century at any rate) for a few miles out.  If we can see these kinds of conditions in a normal though cold winter in highly populated temperate zones there's no reason to think that a magical and unnaturally long / harsh winter wouldn't see rivers freezing over throughout northern and central Westeros.

I'm not sure how far GRRM is going with that theme though.  You have to be equipped and prepared to travel in conditions like that and the one glimpse we have had of a winter blizzard has Stannis's army stuck, freezing, starving and cannibalising it's dead.  It's hard to write much of a story when everyone is stuck in place and has no way of dealing with the conditions.

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

I'm not sure if this is the exact thread to put in my two cents but I think Falcotron is onto something in his comments on water being the third element. I've been obsessed lately with the idea that the series could actually be a called Song of Ice, Water and Fire. I'm a noob to posting my ideas so please bare with me. I've been reading so many different theories and find myself impressed as hell with the depth of analysis but also getting lost a little in the layers of parallels and foreshadowing in the text. That led me to attempt to break things down to their simplest forms. For example, who or what most represents Ice and who or what most represents Fire. Then I realized ,of course, when those two elements come in contact you have water. Then I started to look at who or what represents water. My mind was blown. Think of the vision Dany has of the armies of fire vs the armies of ice and the Trident becoming a torrent. Rivers and water play a huge role in the series. I think the upcoming clashes in TWoW will reveal even more so, it's really about three elemental and magical forces.  I'm also firmly in the balance camp, in that I believe the ultimate culmination of the series will be about some sort of peace between all three. Maybe the Gorge is a chink in the Ice? I'd appreciate if anyone has read any good theories on the interaction of three.

[falcotron]

14 hours ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

I'm not sure if this is the exact thread to put in my two cents but I think Falcotron is onto something in his comments on water being the third element.

It probably isn't the right thread. I started another thread last week, with a little more background on elements in classical mythology, in-world history, etc., but it didn't really go anywhere. You already reminded me of a few things I didn't think of at the time, but if you've got any more ideas to inspire a bit of research and/or thought, that would be great.

[chrisdaw]

If it was to become a major issue it'd have been signalled in the text. It hasn't, it'll be a footnote if that.

[BalerionTheCat]

The Blackwater freezes as south as KL in winter. It did after the False Spring of 281. The Others will have no difficulty to cross the Neck and any river until KL. BTW, why would the Others have a problem with water? ADWD, Jon XIII: "...Dead things in the water..."

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The Blackwater freezes as south as KL in winter. It did after the False Spring of 281. The Others will have no difficulty to cross the Neck and any river until KL. BTW, why would the Others have a problem with water? ADWD, Jon XIII: "...Dead things in the water..."

Very much so. And the Others bring the cold, not regular winter cold, but a different kind of cold that makes it hurt to breathe. They can most likely freeze certain amounts of water without a problem 

[falcotron]

1 minute ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The Blackwater freezes as south as KL in winter. It did after the False Spring of 281. The Others will have no difficulty to cross the Neck and any river until KL. BTW, why would the Others have a problem with water? ADWD, Jon XIII: "...Dead things in the water..."

It wouldn't be impossible that they can wight aquatic animals the same way they do land animals, even if they can't cross the rivers themselves. It would be pretty funny if everyone's sitting in Riverrun and Harrenhal thinking, "Well, at least we're safe on this side of the Trident", and then a zombie kraken swims upstream and starts pulling people off the battlements and smashing holes in the rocks…

[BalerionTheCat]

19 minutes ago, falcotron said:

It wouldn't be impossible that they can wight aquatic animals the same way they do land animals, even if they can't cross the rivers themselves. It would be pretty funny if everyone's sitting in Riverrun and Harrenhal thinking, "Well, at least we're safe on this side of the Trident", and then a zombie kraken swims upstream and starts pulling people off the battlements and smashing holes in the rocks…

Zombie Kraken attacking KL riverfront would be awesome.
"the seas south of Dorne are rife with whirlpools and infested with sharks and kraken"