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Ygrain

R+L=J v.165

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4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im not sure that's even a proper sentence in English and would venture that it's not your native language?

These strike me as indicators as in English we wouldn't announce "the" sword with "the" as in Spanish or French. Its just Dawn. Not the Dawn. The Dawn would imply the sun rising in a literal sense. 

Even if Dawn is now at Winterfell, GRRM didn't lie when he said that it's at Starfall.- Would be proper. 

I only bring this up as ive always wondered about adaptations and how any different impressions would be given based on the Language the book was translated to. And this may be a case of what's happening here :) 

English isn't my native language, it's my fourth. Thought the books and the show I was reading/watching in their original language.

So instead of this "Where is now the Dawn sword, that belonged to Arthur Dayne?", should be this "Where is now Dawn sword, that belonged to Arthur Dayne?"

I think that if the question will be phrased like this, then we may get the answer about Dawn's actual whereabouts. For example if the question will be like this - "Where is Arthur Dayne's sword?", could be that this question is also wrong. For example if after Arthur's death, Ned gave the sword to Ashara (if she also was there with him, at the Tower of Joy), but Ashara said to give her brother's sword to Jon. Thus if we will ask where is Arthur's sword, the answer is - nowhere. Because Dawn now belongs to Jon. Even if Jon is unaware of this.

So even though GRRM said that Dawn remains at Starfall, it could actually be at Winterfell. Or not.

But there's certainly something there in those crypts, that doesn't belong there, and is calling to Jon. And the sword is a good option. And those crypts is a perfect place to hide a sword, because there it will be one amongst many others. Hidden in plain sight.

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4 minutes ago, Megorova said:

English isn't my native language, it's my fourth. Thought the books and the show I was reading/watching in their original language.

So instead of this "Where is now the Dawn sword, that belonged to Arthur Dayne?", should be this "Where is now Dawn sword, that belonged to Arthur Dayne?"

I think that if the question will be phrased like this, then we may get the answer about Dawn's actual whereabouts. For example if the question will be like this - "Where is Arthur Dayne's sword?", could be that this question is also wrong. For example if after Arthur's death, Ned gave the sword to Ashara (if she also was there with him, at the Tower of Joy), but Ashara said to give her brother's sword to Jon. Thus if we will ask where is Arthur's sword, the answer is - nowhere. Because Dawn now belongs to Jon. Even if Jon is unaware of this.

So even though GRRM said that Dawn remains at Starfall, it could actually be at Winterfell. Or not.

But there's certainly something there in those crypts, that doesn't belong there, and is calling to Jon. And the sword is a good option. And those crypts is a perfect place to hide a sword, because there it will be one amongst many others. Hidden in plain sight.

Nice! Thats impressive :) Well i see a lil more of what your trying to say and idk, maybe. A sword at least would fit in the Tomb. Though i still have issue with why it would be hidden there on what unlikely chance Jon would desecrate his aunts tomb. Kind of like LordVarys said, its just wrong on many levels.

Edit- off topic question but have you compared the different adaptations by chance? Really curious about that :)

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23 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

On a side note: we never hear what version of events Cat knew as she never elaborates on what it was that Brandon "heard about Lyanna". IMHO, her own assessment of Brandon's decision to go to KL as "rash"  as well as the memory of her father going ballistic and calling  Brandon "gallant fool" do not support the rape version. It doesn't necessarily mean that they thought Lyanna went willingly but they definitely do not give Brandon the excuse of being legitimately worried about Lyanna.

Last time this discussion was brought up - ages ago - there was a dispute over what exactly Hoster meant by "gallant": did he give Brandon credit for being foolish but brave, or did he condemn him for being (excessively) chivalrous? The former doesn't seem to reveal anything, the latter would support that Brandon went to duel Rhaegar to avenge Lyanna's honour, which would be consistent with Brandon's reaction at the HH crowning as a "dishonor" to Lyanna.

No, it doesn't support the rape version. What I do find interesting is that Brandon seems to have made his way to Riverrun anyway after he found out about Lyanna. He didn't turn back right away and headed to King's Landing to confront Rhaegar. He went to Riverrun, told Catelyn they would marry as soon as he got back and left.

And this whole thing for me is sort of weird. Did Brandon really fear for his sister? If he took the time to continue on to Riverrun, and we don't know where he was when he was told about Lyanna, then his showing up in King's Landing has nothing to do with Lyanna or her alleged abduction. 

I am not remotely convinced that he was told Lyanna was abducted because it doesn't feel as though there is urgency and it's not like he was traveling alone. He could have sent anyone of his companions with word that the plans had changed because of x and y, turned around right away and gone to King's Landing. So his actions are a off to me.

The other thing he does, is omit speaking to Hoster, probably because he would have stopped him from going to King's Landing in the first place. 

I don't think Hoster meant "gallant fool" as compliment. It reminds me too much of Tyrion's thoughts on Lord Brax.

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

On a side note: we never hear what version of events Cat knew as she never elaborates on what it was that Brandon "heard about Lyanna". IMHO, her own assessment of Brandon's decision to go to KL as "rash"  as well as the memory of her father going ballistic and calling  Brandon "gallant fool" do not support the rape version. It doesn't necessarily mean that they thought Lyanna went willingly but they definitely do not give Brandon the excuse of being legitimately worried about Lyanna.

Maybe Hoster thought going to the mad king's home to confront the mad king's son was foolish, even if the reason behind it was good (hence "gallant"), to me that's the easiest and most logical explaination. And he was right, that was stupid: not only because it's Aerys we're talking about, but also because Brandon really didn't have the right to bring the matter to the king, lord Rickard did and he was already on his way.

Anyway, I'd like to hear more about what happened: we only have Jaime's throwaway line that obviously doesn't constitute an accurate description of the events. The idea that Brandon and his friends took off in a rage, rode for a couple of weeks, arrived in King's Landing still insensate with fury and started shouting for Rhaegar to come out and die sounds ridiculously unbelievable to me, there must be more to the story.

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42 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

No, it doesn't support the rape version. What I do find interesting is that Brandon seems to have made his way to Riverrun anyway after he found out about Lyanna. He didn't turn back right away and headed to King's Landing to confront Rhaegar. He went to Riverrun, told Catelyn they would marry as soon as he got back and left.

??? I believe you are mistaken here. Brandon was at Riverrun, then left for some errand (supposedly to meet Rickard's wedding party who were already on the way), and then heard about Lyanna:

“He was on his way to Riverrun when . . .” Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. “. . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King’s Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do.” She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

42 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't think Hoster meant "gallant fool" as compliment.

Me neither, but others claimed that the meaning "brave" cannot be discounted.

42 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

It reminds me too much of Tyrion's thoughts on Lord Brax.

Indeed! 

But the meaning of "gallant" is "brave" here.

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5 minutes ago, Geddus said:

Maybe Hoster thought going to the mad king's home to confront the mad king's son was foolish, even if the reason behind it was good (hence "gallant"), to me that's the easiest and most logical explaination. And he was right, that was stupid: not only because it's Aerys we're talking about, but also because Brandon really didn't have the right to bring the matter to the king, lord Rickard did and he was already on his way.

That's what others claimed, as well. 

5 minutes ago, Geddus said:

Anyway, I'd like to hear more about what happened: we only have Jaime's throwaway line that obviously doesn't constitute an accurate description of the events. The idea that Brandon and his friends took off in a rage, rode for a couple of weeks, arrived in King's Landing still insensate with fury and started shouting for Rhaegar to come out and die sounds ridiculously unbelievable to me, there must be more to the story.

Absolutely. Especially why Brandon never bothered to check out if Rhaegar was even present. Challenging someone for a duel when they are not present is pretty anticlimactic.

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And its debate-able if Cat would see Jons presence as a threat knowing that he wasn't Eddards. As no body else even knows who he is, there is zero chance of Jon being found out, as what happened.

Of course, everything is debatable. However, your position in this debate is to substitute your supposed better wisdom for Ned's stated concerns. Ned tells us there are secrets too dangerous to tell even to those you love and trust. He explicitly states he prays to never have to see what Catelyn would do if confronted with a choice between Jon's life and the lives of her own children. Your own feelings about how Ned could smooth over his relationship with his wife if he only told her Jon wasn't his son totally misses the reasons Ned is giving us. It is simply a bad argument.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The actual conversation your quoting is part of Eddard confronting Cersei over Jamie pushing Bran out the window to protect their children. 

Then Eddard thinks to him self what Cat would do if she were protecting her kids. Would she kill a kid she didn't know. 

Then he wonders what she would do if it were Jon, a child NOT of her body. Though still believed by her to be Eddards. 

So you keep using it out of context to suit your argument when really it doesn't. This has nothing to do with her actually knowing Jon is NOT Eddards, which would greatly change this question he has. He knows she thinks Jon is his, so this is how he is forming the question.

Nice try.

I'm glad you know how to look up a reference. I always include page numbers to make it easier, but you keep on trying to pin some nefarious motive for those obvious references. One can always quote more of the book, but in the search of brevity and in keeping on point it doesn't help to do so, especially when people are given page number references to show the truth of the quote. So, yes, this latest quote takes place during Ned's confrontation with Cersei. That is the reason Ned thinks to the dangers to his own children and to Jon's life. Cersei's children are in a similar position of peril if Ned goes through with his threat to reveal their true parentage. That in no way invalidates Ned's own thoughts about what he thinks about what Catelyn would do if her children were in danger and she could save them with giving up Jon's life. It is this section that is on point to our discussion, not Cersei's thoughts.

My apologies to all, I have to leave to take care of family matters today. We are trying to  get my mother's house ready for sale, and today must be spent on that business. I'll try to check in later tonight.

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37 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

??? I believe you are mistaken here. Brandon was at Riverrun, then left for some errand (supposedly to meet Rickard's wedding party who were already on the way), and then heard about Lyanna:

“He was on his way to Riverrun when . . .” Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. “. . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King’s Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do.” She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

You're right. This was the case of putting two quotes that had nothing to do with each other together. I just made my own head hurt, tbh.

No one from Brandon's party survived, so I doubt we will find out what was going through his head, but I'm still not convinced that he was told his sister was abducted. I think this has more to do with his family's honor than hers.

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27 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And its debate-able if Cat would see Jons presence as a threat knowing that he wasn't Eddards. As no body else even knows who he is, there is zero chance of Jon being found out, as what happened. 

Of course she still would have thought, that Jon's presense is a threat for her children, for her entire family and household.

Also if Cat would have known about Jon's real parentage, then eventually all the others would have also found out. She was the kind of person, that minded what others think about her. Thus if she knew, that Jon is not Ned's bastard, then she would have told about it to other people, and the consequences be damned. Because she didn't liked, that people thought that Ned cheated on her. That they thought, that Ned went to some whore, or fisherman's daughter, even though he just recently married with Cat. Thus if Cat knew the truth, one comment or off-hand remark about Ned's bastard, from some servant or maid, or a guest of their castle, and Cat would have exploaded, and told them that they are wrong, Ned is not that boy's father. Women are like that sometimes, especially if their pride is hurt, they loose control and reveal their secrets, not even thinking about consequences. Even if Cat was able to stop in time, and not to say more than that, and didn't said who's child Jon actually is, and only said that he's not Ned's, then even that information would have been enough, to make people start thinking. If Jon is not Ned's bastard, then why did Ned took him in his castle and acknowledged him as his son? Who is this boy to Ned? And if he is not Ned's son, then why does he look so much like a Stark? <- See, what would have happened, if Ned told the truth to Cat? People would have realised that Jon is child of Lyanna. And who may be his father, would have also became known, not long after that. People would have known that Jon is a Targaryen prince, and by the time Ned would have found out about Cat's little slip, it would have been too late, to do damage control. Next thing that would have happened, is raven arriving to Winterfell, with King Robert's order for Ned to personally execute Jon, and then to become a member of Night's Watch.

Thus, Cat knowing truth about Jon = Jon, say hello to Ice + Ned, say hello to The Wall -_-

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Edit- off topic question but have you compared the different adaptations by chance? Really curious about that :)

Different adaptations of what? Different book prints in different countries? Then, no, I haven't.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Though i still have issue with why it would be hidden there on what unlikely chance Jon would desecrate his aunts tomb. Kind of like LordVarys said, its just wrong on many levels.

There's no need to desecrate her tomb. If I remember correctly, statues in those crypts are either holding swords in their hands, or they are sitting, and the swords are lying across their lap.

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1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Of course, everything is debatable. However, your position in this debate is to substitute your supposed better wisdom for Ned's stated concerns. Ned tells us there are secrets too dangerous to tell even to those you love and trust. He explicitly states he prays to never have to see what Catelyn would do if confronted with a choice between Jon's life and the lives of her own children. Your own feelings about how Ned could smooth over his relationship with his wife if he only told her Jon wasn't his son totally misses the reasons Ned is giving us. It is simply a bad argument.

I'm glad you know how to look up a reference. I always include page numbers to make it easier, but you keep on trying to pin some nefarious motive for those obvious references. One can always quote more of the book, but in the search of brevity and in keeping on point it doesn't help to do so, especially when people are given page number references to show the truth of the quote. So, yes, this latest quote takes place during Ned's confrontation with Cersei. That is the reason Ned thinks to the dangers to his own children and to Jon's life. Cersei's children are in a similar position of peril if Ned goes through with his threat to reveal their true parentage. That in no way invalidates Ned's own thoughts about what he thinks about what Catelyn would do if her children were in danger and she could save them with giving up Jon's life. It is this section that is on point to our discussion, not Cersei's thoughts.

My apologies to all, I have to leave to take care of family matters today. We are trying to  get my mother's house ready for sale, and today must be spent on that business. I'll try to check in later tonight.

Except your using it out of context pure and simple. His thoughts are only because he knows that he has her under the impression that Jon is his. If she did not think Jon was his, then the question would be different. In a push comes to shove between Rhaegar's kid, and her own. She would kill Rhaegar's kid. If she had to make that kind of choice. This is not the choice at hand though. The choice at hand is killing a kid not of her body, but of Ned's body. Would she kills Ned's child to protect her own. 

If she knew it wasn't Eddards and she was in some position to have to choose, we all know she would choose her kids over that of Rhaegar's. This though too is only if, she was put into a position to choose. Which she isn't and Jon is safe whether she would have killed him as Ned's son or not. Or even if she would have killed him if he was Rhaegar's. 

And trying to pin the whole, Ned says there are secrets you can tell loved ones doesn't belong to this conversation with Cersei either. So yes, you are cherry picking quotes out of context to apply to something they don't apply to. 

No, this is a bad argument and clearly subject to your shaky interpretation of a quote used out of context and a clearly refusal to acknowledge that their conversation and his thoughts have nothing to do with Jon secret identity being a threat to Cat or that Jon is a threat to Cat in general. Or any other thing your trying to use it for. Would she kills Ned's child to protect her own.  This is his question. And has nothing to do about her general feeling towards Jon no matter who his parents are. It's simply if she was put in a tight situation to have to choose. Which again, never even happens. This is a question any father of kids on multiple women could ask with out it ever having the implication your tying to apply to it. 

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Of course she still would have thought, that Jon's presense is a threat for her children, for her entire family and household.

Also if Cat would have known about Jon's real parentage, then eventually all the others would have also found out. She was the kind of person, that minded what others think about her. Thus if she knew, that Jon is not Ned's bastard, then she would have told about it to other people, and the consequences be damned. Because she didn't liked, that people thought that Ned cheated on her. That they thought, that Ned went to some whore, or fisherman's daughter, even though he just recently married with Cat. Thus if Cat knew the truth, one comment or off-hand remark about Ned's bastard, from some servant or maid, or a guest of their castle, and Cat would have exploaded, and told them that they are wrong, Ned is not that boy's father. Women are like that sometimes, especially if their pride is hurt, they loose control and reveal their secrets, not even thinking about consequences. Even if Cat was able to stop in time, and not to say more than that, and didn't said who's child Jon actually is, and only said that he's not Ned's, then even that information would have been enough, to make people start thinking. If Jon is not Ned's bastard, then why did Ned took him in his castle and acknowledged him as his son? Who is this boy to Ned? And if he is not Ned's son, then why does he look so much like a Stark? <- See, what would have happened, if Ned told the truth to Cat? People would have realised that Jon is child of Lyanna. And who may be his father, would have also became known, not long after that. People would have known that Jon is a Targaryen prince, and by the time Ned would have found out about Cat's little slip, it would have been too late, to do damage control. Next thing that would have happened, is raven arriving to Winterfell, with King Robert's order for Ned to personally execute Jon, and then to become a member of Night's Watch.

Thus, Cat knowing truth about Jon = Jon, say hello to Ice + Ned, say hello to The Wall -_-

I call bull. 

Really? 

When even Eddard is willing to parade Jon in front of Robert? Robert even asks about him knowing of him. If Eddard was worried about Jon's safety from Robert out right, then he never would have had Jon had the dinner feast when Robert comes North. Not even in the back of the room. Other than keeping him in the back as you would any bastard, he doesn't even try to hide Jon from Robert. 

On top of that, neither Cat nor Ned talk to any body from the south. No body from the south goes north, least wise any body important. It's the end of the world. No ones coming. No one came. This is as imaginary as the assassins hounding Viserys his whole life. 

Even more so, Eddard could simply have told Cat that Jon was Lyanna's by some no body in the south. Some hedge night of low birth. And that she must keep it a secret cause Robert will still lose his shit over Lyanna not loving him.

Im sorry, but im really not buying it. Eddard could have told her a million other things to not piss her off or arouse suspicion. 

He could have lied and said it was Brandon's with some whore. He could have said anything. Could have said he was Benjen's. Frickin Ned got Jon into Winterfell before even Cat could arrive. How would she have known it wasn't Benjen's who was in Winterfell the whole time???

Hmmm????? 

Benjen fathered a bastard, and now he's off to go live at the wall having at least tasted the dornishman's wife. Simple lie, simple story, checked by no one, backed by Benjen. Boom. Problem solved all over. Next.

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11 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I call bull. 

Really? 

When even Eddard is willing to parade Jon in front of Robert? Robert even asks about him knowing of him. If Eddard was worried about Jon's safety from Robert out right, then he never would have had Jon had the dinner feast when Robert comes North. Not even in the back of the room. Other than keeping him in the back as you would any bastard, he doesn't even try to hide Jon from Robert. 

That's because he looks like a Stark, not like Targaryen. So as long as people are told that Jon is Ned's son, there's no reason for them to suspect him.

19 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

On top of that, neither Cat nor Ned talk to any body from the south. No body from the south goes north, least wise any body important. It's the end of the world. No ones coming. No one came.

There are people living even in The North, and they, as everyone else, need money. So for example, if Cat accidentally told to someone, in a spur of a moment, that Jon isn't Ned's son, and the rumors went around, then some people could have informed Robert, that they can reveal to him a secret Targaryen, if he will give them gold for this information. Even if Robert wouldn't have believed in the beginning, in what was revealed to him, he could have started to have doubts, went to Ned and questioned him. And Ned would have exposed himself, because he would have been too shocked, if Robert suddenly came to him and outright asked him, whether Jon is Lyanna's child. Expresion of his face, when he would have heard it, or even the smallest pause, prior he started to deny it, would have shown to Robert that Ned was lying.

55 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Even more so, Eddard could simply have told Cat that Jon was Lyanna's by some no body in the south. Some hedge night of low birth. And that she must keep it a secret cause Robert will still lose his shit over Lyanna not loving him.

Cat wasn't so stupid, to believe into something like that. Lyanna was kidnapped by prince Rhaegar Targaryen, and then was impregnated by someone else? Ridiculous.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im sorry, but im really not buying it. Eddard could have told her a million other things to not piss her off or arouse suspicion. 

Ned didn't told Cat anything, because it's easier to withhold information entirely, and just keep saying that Jon is his son, than to create more complicated cover up story, about Jon's fake parentage.

Though we still may later get more information about that situation, if Howland Reed was Ned's confidant, and knew Jon's secret. Later in the books he may tell to Jon, the reason why Ned decided to do what he did, and never revealed the truth even to his family, including Cat. So until then, we are free to believe into whatever version we have chosen.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

That's because he looks like a Stark, not like Targaryen. So as long as people are told that Jon is Ned's son, there's no reason for them to suspect him.

There are people living even in The North, and they, as everyone else, need money. So for example, if Cat accidentally told to someone, in a spur of a moment, that Jon isn't Ned's son, and the rumors went around, then some people could have informed Robert, that they can reveal to him a secret Targaryen, if he will give them gold for this information. Even if Robert wouldn't have believed in the beginning, in what was revealed to him, he could have started to have doubts, went to Ned and questioned him. And Ned would have exposed himself, because he would have been too shocked, if Robert suddenly came to him and outright asked him, whether Jon is Lyanna's child. Expresion of his face, when he would have heard it, or even the smallest pause, prior he started to deny it, would have shown to Robert that Ned was lying.

Cat wasn't so stupid, to believe into something like that. Lyanna was kidnapped by prince Rhaegar Targaryen, and then was impregnated by someone else? Ridiculous.

Ned didn't told Cat anything, because it's easier to withhold information entirely, and just keep saying that Jon is his son, than to create more complicated cover up story, about Jon's fake parentage.

Though we still may later get more information about that situation, if Howland Reed was Ned's confidant, and knew Jon's secret. Later in the books he may tell to Jon, the reason why Ned decided to do what he did, and never revealed the truth even to his family, including Cat. So until then, we are free to believe into whatever version we have chosen.

Which is exactly why he could have just said it was Benjens.

And why would Cat tell anyone? Though again. Just tell her it was Benjens. 

And what? there was nothing any wheres that says Lyanna was pregnant and is only implied for the readers. No one in the story seems to know if Lyanna was pregnant or not. 

So yes, he could have said Jon was Lyanna's by some one else. That Rhaegar had kidnapped her for Arthur or that she got away from Rhaegar but was raped in an alley. You lack imagination. 

And no, Its not easier to with hold entirely. Thats how you get wild speculation from her like Ashara Dayne is Jon's mother and an intense hatred for Jon. 

And yes, Ned told her Jon was his son. He never tells Cat who the mother is. Which is odd as he tells Robert it was Wylla and Edric and House Dayne seem to be telling the same tale. So we know that story was cooked up in Dorne. 

Yet he's not so rude to lie to his wife about that for some reason. Maybe cause she was brought to Winterfel and Cat would torture her? Who knows. Yet he still isn't that dumb. Yet, why use Wylla as a wet nurse in Winterfell if the whole story your telling every where else is Wylla.

Why not fear that Cat would talk to Robert? Then out right confront Eddard over lying to her and bringing her into their house right under her nose. Or that Jon Arryn would tell the tale to Lysa Arryn who would tell it to Caitlynn. 

All this fear mongering over Cat spilling the beans, yet no fear over some one in the south spilling beans? A lie for every occasion huh? 

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Further i have a hard time seeing why Rhaegar would even like or want Lyanna. 

Specially since most people think Elia was pregnant still at Harrenhal. Which means Rhaegar doesn't know he needs a third child. So why Crown Lyanna, when your not even interested in her and have no plan to kidnap her till you later learn that your wife can't birth a third child for your prophecy. Makes no sense at all. 

If Aegon was born before Harrenhal then he at least has motive for giving her a rose. Though it wouldn't be love then, just serving a purpose. Real romantic. 

But as most believe Aegon is born after Harrenhal. Then why is Rhaegar paying her any attention at all? 

And dont say cause she's the Knight, The Knight of the Laughing tree was a male as repeatedly said by Meera. 

Rheagar can't find high spirited women in Dorne? He doesn't even seem the type to cheat. Eddard even say's Rheagar didn't seem the type to visit brothels. Why would he want Lyanna out of no wheres? She's not the Knight, so only time we can assume he even saw her was at the feast crying, but meh. That was enough to hook him? Sounds weak. 

I just dont see what drew Rhaegar to risk his families lives, his kingdom, and his life. To run away with some chick he didn't know to father a child he didn't know he even needed yet when he crowned her. 

For a guy who kidnapped some ones bride and brought on a war, he seems awfully unconcerned with it when talking to Jamie. Even telling Jamie that Aerys fears Tywin more than Robert. Even after Robert won the Battle of the Bells and the North, Riverlands, Stormlands, and Vale have already united. Even with all of this, Rhaegar seems' very chill about it all. Not even giving it a mention. Just talking about Tywin.

You know, it wouldn't surprise me if Tywin didnt' spread the lie that Rhaegar took Lyanna. Aerys and Rhaegar are more concerned with Tywin. 

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On February 13, 2018 at 6:14 AM, J. Stargaryen said:

Are you saying the point isn't that Lyanna only started loving the scent of winter roses after Rhaegar crowned her, but that she didn't stop once he did? I think that would make sense. And a lot of that would fit neatly with RLJ.

1. Very sorry for the delay--the site kept throwing me off. Trying not to be paranoid.

2. Yup! And I agree it fits nicely with a lot of RLJ theory.

3. And I'd also say it seems very, very likely Lyanna loved the roses and their scent long before the tourney. Arya loves finding new and unusual flowers. If winter roses only bloom in winter, that would be a rare and interesting flower to someone like Arya. And Lyanna seems to be like Arya (or vice versa). So, no matter what happened with that rose crown, seems like Lyanna would still love the flowers--if we go with the Arya parallel.

On February 13, 2018 at 6:14 AM, J. Stargaryen said:

I think if we're extrapolating this information onto Lyanna, the Poison Kisses giving Arya a rash seems like it could parallel Rhaegar's poison kiss giving Lyanna a fever. It's fairly common for a fever to accompany a rash, after all. They're something of a pair. 

Nice!--I hadn't thought of its being that specific to the fever, but that works.

I'd just been thinking of Ned's image of the thorns under the flowers. Or Lyanna's image in his dream--bleeding eyes. That the roses she loved got used against her somehow. 

On February 13, 2018 at 6:14 AM, J. Stargaryen said:

In retrospect, I've always wondered if this line might be a sort of call forward if you will, to Dany's vision of a blue rose growing out of the Wall, if you read stagnant as meaning still. Since ice is water that doesn't move. Not only that but stagnant can also indicate that the water had gone bad from inaction.

I'm liking this. Fits with the idea that the Wall, the Watch, and even what Ned says about the fall of the Kingsguard--the idea that these safeguards have grown stagnant. Needs to be a chink to break free. That might fit with Rhaegar's need/desire to depose his father.

But also could fit with the magical state of Westeros--the general break of seasons. And Alysanne's messing with the Wall. And the coming return of the Others--seems like all that stagnation helped set up for the misery in the current books.

Though the blue flower/rose also seems like it's tied to Martin's Bitterblooms story--so the flower in the chink could be bringing something far less than perfect, since it's the color of the Others' eyes.

I don't know if you've seen it, but @Frey family reunion found a cool parallel with the Wall and the "chink scene" in Midsummer Night's Dream. Fits well with the Bael Tale and potentially with RLJ. http://thelasthearth.com/post/64982/thread

On February 13, 2018 at 6:14 AM, J. Stargaryen said:

Loosely speaking you could describe the Watch this way too, I suppose. They were low on numbers even before the battle at the Fist of the First Men and the mutiny at Craster's. Afterwards, it's all they can do to hold the Wall. Thank R'hllor for Stannis. ;) 

Amen--though the cost of Stannis and blood sacrifice might make his help. . .  a lot less helpful. 

On February 13, 2018 at 6:14 AM, J. Stargaryen said:

Truth be told I'm not very confident that any of this is correct or intended, but maybe there's something there, so I just wanted to mention it.

I think it works really well--but I'm a semi-grown woman who impersonates a bird on the internet, so my opinion may not be worth trusting.:P

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On 2/17/2018 at 11:01 AM, Sly Wren said:

I'd just been thinking of Ned's image of the thorns under the flowers. Or Lyanna's image in his dream--bleeding eyes. That the roses she loved got used against her somehow. 

I wouldn't say that the roses got used against her, but that they led to her death. She played the part of Nissa Nissa in the Lightbringer recipe. Whether the sacrifice was intentional or not, she still died. 

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20 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I wouldn't say that the roses got used against her, but that they led to her death. She played the part of Nissa Nissa in the Lightbringer recipe. Whether the sacrifice was intentional or not, she still died. 

I don't get the casting of Lyanna as Nissa Nissa.  Surely this is Dany who has been transformed by a fiery 'sword':

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

I question whether Nissa Nissa is a woman or a dragon.  Azor Ahai's sword doesn't have any heat until it is plunged into Nissa Nissa:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

"He would know." Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king's son, a king's brother, a king's uncle. "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

I think Nissa Nissa and the beast are one in the same - a beloved dragon, just as Drogon is Dany's beloved. Jon doesn't wake the dragon or dragons from stone.  Or do you think Rhaegar got it wrong?

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9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

snip

 

I wouldn't just look for one "Lightbringer" in the story. But check out these quotes, re: the LB origin story and R+L=J.

“It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.” - ACoK, Davos I

The other wight, the one-handed thing that had once been a ranger named Jafer Flowers, had also been destroyed, cut near to pieces by a dozen swords… but not before it had slain Ser Jaremy Rykker and four other men. Ser Jaremy had finished the job of hacking its head off, yet had died all the same when the headless corpse pulled his own dagger from its sheath and buried it in his bowels. Strength and courage did not avail much against foemen who would not fall because they were already dead; even arms and armor offered small protection. - AGoT, Jon VIII

Maybe GRRM just likes to pair "strength and courage." Or, maybe there is something to be gleaned here. Strength and courage come from the female, Nissa Nissa. But that's not what it takes to defeat wights. It takes fire. So if strength and courage come from the female, the mother, then the fire would come from the male, the father. And I don't think it would be out of place to find a reference to LB in a paragraph about battling wights. 

This would be as it applies to Jon. Things could be different for Dany. And I don't think the evidence in favor of one necessarily excludes the other. You'll notice later on in AGoT, in a very interesting place, we get another "strength and courage" pairing. 

“This is bloodmagic,” he said. “It is forbidden.”
“I am khaleesi, and I say it is not forbidden. In Vaes Dothrak, Khal Drogo slew a stallion and I ate his heart, to give our son strength and courage. This is the same. The same.” - AGoT, Daenerys VIII

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18 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

snip

I'm still not making the connection. Dany is the one who is filling the prophecy in more ways than one.  Lightbringer may not even be the name of a sword but the one who wields it.  A fiery sword can easily be a dragon.

As for the sword that AA plunges into Nissa Nissa, I'm inclined to think this is the Dawn Sword.  I think Jon will end up with it at some point and I think the last dragon will be used to transform it into dragonsteel.  Fire arrows can deal with wights quite easily.  White Walkers not so much.

Although I do think it's possible that Jon will be resurrected with fire not unlike Lady Stoneheart or Beric.  He doesn't need dragonblood for that. Nor does he need it to wield the Dawn Sword or ride a dragon.  It's just as likely that Jon will end up on the icey side of the equation.

So I'm still not sure why it's necessary for Jon to be Rhaegar's offspring. I don't think it's likely that Jon will end up on the iron throne but rather the king of winter.   

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