The Last Jedi: Here There Be Spoilers

[Darth Richard II]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

Some people need their bland mac & cheese. 

Yeah I dunno, like, that one hurt my head a bit.

[divica]

3 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

It has an A cinemascore with audiences and peopel I know who work at movie theaters tell me a lot of people are showing up to see it a 2nd or 3rd time, so I think the audience division being touted in the media is a bit overblown. Also, people who dislike something will always be louder on the internet.

I could be wrong though. I don't think we'll know for sure with this one til a few years out.

I didn t like the movie. But my honest opinion is:

If you like the original trilogy and the good parts of the prequel you can t like this movie because it copies a lot of things and ends up failing to deliver. However if you are new to star wars or didn t have much attacment to the other movies it is a great movie.

[Darth Richard II]

1 minute ago, divica said:

I didn t like the movie. But my honest opinion is:

If you like the original trilogy and the good parts of the prequel you can t like this movie because it copies a lot of things and ends up failing to deliver. However if you are new to star wars or didn t have much attacment to the other movies it is a great movie.

That's not how opinions work.

[divica]

5 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

oh good lord, i'll just address one thing in that ramble rant

Luke didn't give R2D2 the corrds to where he could be found. He happened to have old imperial maps that gave context to the map bb8 had that the old guy who died at the beginning of ep 7 apparently went through a lot of shit to get a hold of.

r2d2 started working misteriously in end of the last movie. It spent years turned of and sudenly puf...

why would it start working if luke didn t want to be found?

[Darth Richard II]

Why would he if he did want to be found? Did Luke wake up one day and go hey man I'm lonly i'll turn on r2 even though he doesn't have a map to where I am.

Like...am I on crazy pills?

[Darth Richard II]

Also, R2 didn;t have the amp to Luke, BB8 did, so unless Luke went to Jacku at some point and burried a treasure map and fuck it I'm goign to bed I can't do this

 

[Rippounet]

7 minutes ago, divica said:

In the last part of the movie, after a talk with yoda when we are informed that rei is a super jedi that doesn t need training because she already knows everything

Nah, that was just Yoda being playful because he knew Rey had stolen the books. As for the experience bit, what he seemed to have meant was that she would learn from Luke's mistakes (or the fact that Jedi make mistakes) and not be over-confident.
Though she then immediately proves that she is in fact, ridiculously over-confident.

Nonetheless, I found all the force-users in TLJ interesting - which really wasn't the case in TFA. Rey acquired some much needed depth, Ren was finally a decent villain, and Luke, Leia and Yoda were all great.
Finn was just annoying to me. I remember saying, as I exited the theatre, that they hadn't given the actor a lot to shine with. I think Boyega did his best, but his character had shifting motivations and his role was not very likeable to begin with ; the fact that Rose, a completely new character, was so easily embraced by the viewers is quite telling. And it's almost comical that they gave him yet another crappy duel, as if they weren't sure what to do with the character. Though I have to say, the movie did surprise me when it turned out that he had actually been quite useless ; in retrospect, it's part of what I like about it.

It just occurred to me that the rebellion is now more or less down to what it was at the start of Star Wars : Rebels. A bunch of beloved characters aboard a beloved ship.

[Corvinus85]

32 minutes ago, divica said:

r2d2 started working misteriously in end of the last movie. It spent years turned of and sudenly puf...

why would it start working if luke didn t want to be found?

BB-8 woke R2 up. I believe JJ Abrams confirmed that.

[Rippounet]

18 minutes ago, divica said:

If you like the original trilogy and the good parts of the prequel you can t like this movie because it copies a lot of things and ends up failing to deliver.

Ah, I beg to differ. I think it delivers different things. I really liked the fact that it played with expectations ; the unpredictability made the last third of the movie quite gripping. And I'd say the movie did give a bit of everything that fans may like, while developing completely new characters. Not bad.

I'm really worried for the next movie though, because pretty much all the new characters lack charisma, the old ones that provided that are nearly all gone (we will miss Carrie in many ways I'm afraid), and they are now in a situation that should make epicness hard to reach. I fear episode IX will look more like an episode of Rebels than a proper Star Wars movie. I'm tempted to say they succeeded in giving us a good movie, but at the cost of killing most of the interest for the overall story itself. I speak only for myself, but I'm not much interested in the next Rey-Ren duel, Finn's (or Poe's) little adventures, or generally speaking yet another rebuilding of the rebellion. At this point in the overall story, I would have much preferred to see the growth of the new Republic and the new Jedi order. Instead the Republic seems dead, the rebellion is down to a rag-tag team again, the Jedi are down to a single member facing a half-Sith. I'm too old to identify with the new characters and their love triangles. I rate this movie pretty highly, but the title ends up being true: the Jedi are gone. I fear the star wars went with them.

[Darth Richard II]

15 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

BB-8 woke R2 up. I believe JJ Abrams confirmed that.

He did.

Also reading around a bit, people are saying Phasma didn't fall into space and there are indications she might return, but that is mostly wishful thinking probably. I've have to watch the film again to see if she actually falls out into space or just into fire.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

20 hours ago, Rubicante said:

I agree with all of your points about Luke, but the problems really started with his first scene where he tosses the lightsaber behind his back and walks off.  That lightsaber was Anakin's, you know, his father and the guy who Luke helped redeem.  You would think he would ask Rey "Where did you find this?", which I should point out is still a question that has not been answered.  Instead the whole scene is played for laughs, and immediately made me feel like I was watching a Marvel movie instead of a Star Wars one.  This was also a problem with Poe's prank phone call on General Hux.  What a terrible way to start off a Star Wars film.

As for Snoke, his origin is important because it is tied to the origin of the First Order.  All I know about the First Order is that it was formed from the "Ashes of the Empire".  I don't understand why Snoke was instrumental in organizing the First Order, why anybody would follow him in the first place, how the First Order was funded, how the Republic allowed the First Order to grow, why he sought out Kylo Ren, why does Snoke want Luke killed so badly, why Snoke is so strong with the dark side of the force, etc.

I agree about the lightsaber bit, but it did make me laugh. So, it gets a pass. The Poe/Hux intro was funny, but out of place. You put it well--it's indeed very much an MCU scene and not a Star Wars scene.

And you're not wrong about Snoke's significance either. But fuck us, right? WTF do we know. We need to kill the past or some shit and just be satisfied with Snoke's Mauling by Kylo. 

[divica]

8 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Ah, I beg to differ. I think it delivers different things. I really liked the fact that it played with expectations ; the unpredictability made the last third of the movie quite gripping. And I'd say the movie did give a bit of everything that fans may like, while developing completely new characters. Not bad.

I'm really worried for the next movie though, because pretty much all the new characters lack charisma, the old ones that provided that are nearly all gone (we will miss Carrie in many ways I'm afraid), and they are now in a situation that should make epicness hard to reach. I fear episode IX will look more like an episode of Rebels than a proper Star Wars movie. I'm tempted to say they succeeded in giving us a good movie, but at the cost of killing most of the interest for the overall story itself. I speak only for myself, but I'm not much interested in the next Rey-Ren duel, Finn's (or Poe's) little adventures, or generally speaking yet another rebuilding of the rebellion. At this point in the overall story, I would have much preferred to see the growth of the new Republic and the new Jedi order. Instead the Republic seems dead, the rebellion is down to a rag-tag team again, the Jedi are down to a single member facing a half-Sith. I'm too old to identify with the new characters and their love triangles. I rate this movie pretty highly, but the title ends up being true: the Jedi are gone. I fear the star wars went with them.

I think you are ignoring that there were more jedi fights and they were better executed in the prequels for exemple. Even in terms of spaceship batles I think the original trilogy was better than this movie because the stakes seemed bigger.

Then I don t think rei ren can compare in epicness to luke vader. And the fact that rei without training constantly beats/ties with ren has cheapened the character. It feels like he isn t that great.

And to me the movie simply copied too many things from the previous movies (I forgot to add how rei belives that ren can be saved and delivers herself like luke did) to be a good movie. It is true it the cuts with all the clichés, but they way that is done creates other problems... For exemple, because of all the copying I was completly convinced that Luke would die like ben did in the first start wars movie

[Darth Richard II]

FFS, it's Rey, not rei.

[Rubicante]

23 minutes ago, divica said:

And to me the movie simply copied too many things from the previous movies (I forgot to add how rei belives that ren can be saved and delivers herself like luke did) to be a good movie. It is true it the cuts with all the clichés, but they way that is done creates other problems... For exemple, because of all the copying I was completly convinced that Luke would die like ben did in the first start wars movie

I think this is a big problem I have watching these new movies.  It's just impossible for me to not view a scene and think "this is just x scene copied and redone from the Original Trilogy."

For example, I really hated the scene on the Salt Planet where the Millenium Falcon flies through this narrow crystal passage and some TIE fighters chase it.  It was the exact same thing as the run to the Death Star reactor core in Return of the Jedi.  The Falcon is able to maneuver these narrow passages and of course the TIE fighters will not be able to.  Yawn.  If the writers really wanted to do something different, they could have had the Falcon crash into a wall and blow up, killing both Rey and Chewbacca in the most unexpected way possible (I'm kidding of course).

[Darth Richard II]

Just now, Rubicante said:

I think this is a big problem I have watching these new movies.  It's just impossible for me to not view a scene and think "this is just x scene copied and redone from the Original Trilogy."

For example, I really hated the scene on the Salt Planet where the Millenium Falcon flies through this narrow crystal passage and some TIE fighters chase it.  It was the exact same thing as the run to the Death Star reactor core in Return of the Jedi.  The Falcon is able to maneuver these narrow passages and of course the TIE fighters will not be able to.  Yawn.

Ha, wow, I think that was my faorite part of the movie.

[RumHam]

I thought it was great. But I also don't hold especially high opinions of the other ones. I grew up on the OT but the movies are not great and I've just seen them too many times. It seems to me like most of the complaints about the new trilogy could be applied to the original as well.  I'm a fan of continuity, so a few things did nibble at me. but continuity has always been poor in this series. 

I have to assume the few people rating the prequels above the last two grew up on them and are clouded by nostalgia. There is some stupid stuff in VII and VIII, but nothing approaching the level of the prequels. I still don't love the general story setup of the new movies (basically a reset, Han and Leia estranged, Luke didn't revive the order, etc...) but the writing, acting and directing is miles above those three movies. 

[Corvinus85]

6 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

I think this is a big problem I have watching these new movies.  It's just impossible for me to not view a scene and think "this is just x scene copied and redone from the Original Trilogy."

For example, I really hated the scene on the Salt Planet where the Millenium Falcon flies through this narrow crystal passage and some TIE fighters chase it.  It was the exact same thing as the run to the Death Star reactor core in Return of the Jedi.  The Falcon is able to maneuver these narrow passages and of course the TIE fighters will not be able to.  Yawn.

In a way it was, since the exact same music was playing, on purpose, you know to get those nostalgia feels. But the two are different as in the old one the Falcon was heading towards its target, while here it was luring TIE fighters away from allies and into tight spaces.

[Darth Richard II]

4 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

In a way it was, since the exact same music was playing, on purpose, you know to get those nostalgia feels. But the two are different as in the old one the Falcon was heading towards its target, while here it was luring TIE fighters away from allies and into tight spaces.

Actually, as a giant film music nerd, I must chime in here, it's actually the music that plays in Ep 4 when the Tie Fighters come after them after they escape the Death Star.

[Werthead]

Quote

 

Also, another nitpick that people seem to have is with the hyperjump ram. How that would trivialize all warfare (it would) and make it impossible to have space battles (it kind of does) and it can't possibly work that way because it hasn't been done before.

This is Star Wars. A major movie's main plot boils down to their inability to send a file via email because it's too big. All of their architecture has like no guardrails despite being over huge shafts of death. KOTOR has basically precisely the same tech that Star Wars does, and that's 2000 years in the past. This is an incredibly stodgy, uninventive culture. The easiest explanation is the one that makes sense in the scheme of the universe and what we know of the past - no one had thought of it before. It simply hadn't occurred to them to weaponize a hyperspace jump. They didn't have the context to think about it that way, because they've been fighting WW2 battles in spaces for 2000 years now. 

Is it that weird to think that no one had come up with this before? 

Because hyperspace didn't work like that before. In Rogue One several of the Rebel ships jumping out at the end of the film suddenly can't because Vader's Star Destroyer has jumped out ahead of them, mass-locking them in place until they can clear the exit vector (which one of the transports can't, as it just crashes into the Star Destroyer and blows up). That's exactly how it worked in the X-Wing games, which the space side of the Battle of Scarif is paying homage to. This is also canonised in the New Canon by Rebels, which re-introduced Interdictor Cruisers and their Gravewell Generators as A Thing.

The problem is that the TFA already started fucking around with that with the Falcon being able to drop out of hyperspace right on top of Starkiller Base. I've seen people trying to justify that by saying that Starkiller Base might be hollow to reduce its mass, but I think the whole point of it is that it's an actual planet they converted into a weapon, so they wouldn't have done that. The mass should have been enough to stop the Falcon coming out of hyperspace anywhere near it. Of course, Han being able to come out of hyperspace so close to the planetoid without dying also firmly confirms that starships can time their exit vectors from hyperspace to the metre (or tens of metres at worse), which begs the question again on why the Star Destroyers can't microjump in front of the fleet (note that Vader also got his Star Destroyer precisely in the right place to cut off the Rebel Fleet in Rogue One).

The hyperspace ram is basically a massive retcon on how hyperspace has worked before, either in the new or old canon. They completely pulled it out of their arses. For some people, who don't want consistency in their settings, that's fine, but for others who do, it's a problem. It would be silly for it to be a fatal problem for the film when it's not the emotional focus of the movie (where the film is more successful), but it is indicative of Disney's attitude to consistency and canon (i.e. they don't give a shit about it).

[felice]

6 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Where they explicitly put in things to make you question whether or not it's a plot hole, gave you hints that it was what it was, set it up early as something that kills you if you try

The "kills you if you try" line would have carried more weight if they hadn't had Snoke literally wiping the floor with Hux over presumably interstellar distances earlier in the film. After Snoke demonstrating that sort of power at that sort of range on a whim, the idea that projecting a mere illusion would be enough to drain Luke to death seems a bit odd.