Did the Tyrells violate guest right?

[Sigella]

37 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

...and disregard the fact that Freys deliver to Winterfell, no need to go all the way to the Riverlands to pick up.

Yup that too

Not to mention a vengeful little facless girl assasin with little need of an army   

[Frey Kings]

When they stabbed Jon Snow, is it both breaking guest right and kinslaying? since they are all "brothers" now. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 minutes ago, Frey Kings said:

When they stabbed Jon Snow, is it both breaking guest right and kinslaying? since they are all "brothers" now. 

They're not guests at castle black-it's their home. Kinslaying only you could do that when you murder people with blood(close) relations to you.

[Sigella]

5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

They're not guests at castle black-it's their home. Kinslaying only you could do that when you murder people with blood(close) relations to you.

But people call Theon a kinslayer for killing Bran and Rickon thoug.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

On 1/15/2018 at 4:52 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So I wonder does the guest right protection continue into the next day & the day after as long as the guest has ate & drank? 

And the way I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, if the guest did not eat or drink whether it was because they refused it or was not offered then there is no guest right correct? 

Until this thread & the quotes provided I honestly did not know guest right extended to the host as well. 

The way I've understood it is that guest right protection extends throughout the duration of the visit. It begins once the guest has partaken of the host's food and drink. But Wyman Manderley showed that it continues until the visit is ended; thus, the giving of a gift of horses by him to the Freys on their departure from his hall was meant to show definitively that their protections under guest rights had now ended.

 

[Frey Kings]

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

They're not guests at castle black-it's their home. Kinslaying only you could do that when you murder people with blood(close) relations to you.

They are all guests there until their watch has ended (and absorbed into the weirwoods). no one has a claim on it.  

They leave their old families and life behind and get surrogates. 

 

The 13th lord commander, broke both guest right and kinslayed his brothers. And  broke a whole bunch of other vows, taking up a castle, taking up a crown, winning glory with his wife yadayada for 13 years... Until it took a King beyond the wall and a Stark King to "cast him down". Which means they were careful of not killing him. 

How else would someone be able to rule for 13 years from a castle in the nightswatch?

[Clegane'sPup]

Okay sum of the city slickers ain’t been out in the rural areas of their country. This guest right thawg in these novels is about hospitality  in the north of Westeros. The people south of the Neck dunna pay much heed in the custom.

The World of Ice and Fire - The North      One notable custom that the Northmen hold dearer than any other is guest right, the tradition of hospitality by which a man may offer no harm to a guest beneath his roof, nor a guest to his host. The Andals held to something like it as well, but it looms less large in southron minds. /

In my opinion all Mance is saying in the below quote is that he ain’t gonna kill Jon this night BUT Mance can’t guarantee that someone in Mance’s crew ain’t gonna off Jon.   

A Storm of Swords - Jon I      The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree." He gestured at the board between them, the broken bread and chicken bones. "Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands . . . this night, at least. /

Mance spoke nothing of salt and bread to Jon, they ate chicken and bread

 

Bejebes, Lord Walder knows about the quest right tradition. He is not a northman he is a Riverlander, a southron. By the time the RW rolls around Walder has already thrown In with Tywin and Roose .

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VI      Walder Frey's mouth moved in and out. "Food, heh. A loaf of bread, a bite of cheese, mayhaps a sausage."  "Some wine to wash it down," Robb said. "And salt."    "Bread and salt. Heh. Of course, of course." The old man clapped his hands together, and servants came into the hall, bearing flagons of wine and trays of bread, cheese, and butter. Lord Walder took a cup of red himself, and raised it high with a spotted hand. "My guests," he said. "My honored guests. Be welcome beneath my roof, and at my table."

 

Notice in the above quote Walder says, "My honored guests. Be welcome beneath my roof, and at my table."  Hospitality ---  the implication  is you are safe from harm from me right now/this night.

Guest right as it applies to all the other frekking scenarios ---- twist it, turn it, have fun with it.

I would ask  ---- is providing your guest with hospility the opposite of a lord  laying an unsheathed sword across his knees while sitting his chair?

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV     Robb was seated in Father's high seat, wearing ringmail and boiled leather and the stern face of Robb the Lord. Theon Greyjoy and Hallis Mollen stood behind him. A dozen guardsmen lined the grey stone walls beneath tall narrow windows. In the center of the room the dwarf stood with his servants, and four strangers in the black of the Night's Watch. Bran could sense the anger in the hall the moment that Hodor carried him through the doors.    "Any man of the Night's Watch is welcome here at Winterfell for as long as he wishes to stay," Robb was saying with the voice of Robb the Lord. His sword was across his knees, the steel bare for all the world to see. Even Bran knew what it meant to greet a guest with an unsheathed sword.    "Any man of the Night's Watch," the dwarf repeated, "but not me, do I take your meaning, boy?"

Edit: Does Davos know what guest right is and is he a viable source about what guest right is about---

A Dance with Dragons - Davos I    It was, though any stale crust would have tasted just as fine to Davos; it meant he was a guest here, for this one night at least. The lords of the Three Sisters had a black repute, and none more so than Godric Borrell, Lord of Sweetsister, Shield of Sisterton, Master of Breakwater Castle, and Keeper of the Night Lamp … but even robber lords and wreckers were bound by the ancient laws of hospitality. I will see the dawn, at least, Davos told himself. I have eaten of his bread and salt./

Thing is did Davos actually ingest salt? I dunna know because I didna re-read the complete chapter.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

The way I've understood it is that guest right protection extends throughout the duration of the visit. It begins once the guest has partaken of the host's food and drink. But Wyman Manderley showed that it continues until the visit is ended; thus, the giving of a gift of horses by him to the Freys on their departure from his hall was meant to show definitively that their protections under guest rights had now ended.

 

Perfect synopsis

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

They are all guests there until their watch has ended (and absorbed into the weirwoods). no one has a claim on it.  

They leave their old families and life behind and get surrogates. 

 

The 13th lord commander, broke both guest right and kinslayed his brothers. And  broke a whole bunch of other vows, taking up a castle, taking up a crown, winning glory with his wife yadayada for 13 years... Until it took a King beyond the wall and a Stark King to "cast him down". Which means they were careful of not killing him. 

How else would someone be able to rule for 13 years from a castle in the nightswatch?

Again they live at CB. They are not visting. And even your logic of them being  guests they wouldn't have violated guest rights since Jon is as much a guest to the castle as they would be.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Sigella said:

But people call Theon a kinslayer for killing Bran and Rickon thoug.

Do they? I'm seriously asking here.

[Bernie Mac]

12 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

One important question is, does gust right protect one guest from the other? If there's no such thing than most examples given here aren't actually any violations of it.

 

Sure. Walder can't turn around and claim that Roose killed Robb and he did nothing wrong. The host is responsible for his guests safety. We see another example in the Dance of the Dragons when Lord Baratheon refused to allow Aemond attack Lucerys under his walls. 

 

2 hours ago, Sigella said:

But people call Theon a kinslayer for killing Bran and Rickon thoug.

No one in the books does, nor do they claim he has broken guest rights. He is labelled a turncloak and child killer.

[The Sunland Lord]

2 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

They are all guests there until their watch has ended (and absorbed into the weirwoods). no one has a claim on it.  

 Thought the same, great thinking. Then again, everyone born in that world is a guest who will depart when he dies, so basically all killers break the guest right?

2 hours ago, Frey Kings said:

They leave their old families and life behind and get surrogates. 

On a more serious note, I agree with this totally. They are brothers-by-law. I support this idea. The rest of the brothers are a Watchman's kin now. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Do they? I'm seriously asking here.

Yes, it's been argued that Theon killing Bran and Rickon is a form of kin-slaying. I think it's primarily based on the Hooded Man calling Theon a kin-slayer. I don't remember if anyone else calls him that.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

14 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

From memory, no Bolton is killed in Winterfell, so Mance and Manderly, two decent fellows who adhere to guest right from our earlier encounters with them are still giving it value.

Their men have been killed, their horses as well. How would that not and be an attack on the host? Why the qualifier of it not being a violation of having unless having murdered the host's family members?

 

14 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Roose also has no right to be the host, whether because it is now Ramsay who is Lord of Winterfell or because Boltons have no right to have it, it doesn't matter much.

 The IT gifted the Boltons WF so isn't that the end of it? It is now theirs legally.

 

14 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As for Tyrells, "In the eyes of gods and men..." we are often told; Joffrey is a bastard so actually he has no right to be the host, absolving Tyrells.

He's annointed with the holy oils swore the oaths, and the RK is legally recognized place of residency? and really is his home. Robert named him as his succesore(not knowing he what Joffery was), but nonetheless the RK is his.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Yes, it's been argued that Theon killing Bran and Rickon is a form of kin-slaying. I think it's primarily based on the Hooded Man calling Theon a kin-slayer. I don't remember if anyone else calls him that.

 

Huh. I guess some can see killing of those who are adopted or basiclly adopted as kinslayers in a way?

[Varysblackfyre321]

On January 15, 2018 at 11:41 PM, The Wolves said:

I doubt Mance violated guest rights, the Wildlings are just as traditional and respectful of the old gods as any Northernmen, I have no doubt that they made sure that they didn’t violate guest rights. 

Well Mance broke his oath to the watch and he swore by the old gods he'd serve. I don't violating guest right for him is that big a thing. I don't know about how orthodox the spear wives are regarding this topic. I mean probably but who knows?  I mean they don't know how long they're mission is going to exactly take.

[Universal Sword Donor]

14 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

The difference between Frey and Tyrell in this case is finesse.

The Frey's did it in the most obvious, dumb b*stard way, earning enmity.

The Tyrell's used subterfuge and guile. 

That's the least of the differences.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Yes, it's been argued that Theon killing Bran and Rickon is a form of kin-slaying. I think it's primarily based on the Hooded Man calling Theon a kin-slayer. I don't remember if anyone else calls him that.

 

It's been argued, debunked, argued more, and then denied by Theon in text. The Freys said that Robb attacked Wendel Manderly. It doesn't mean it's true. We know that Theon doesn't consider it kinslaying and we know they are alive.

[Sigella]

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Do they? I'm seriously asking here.

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure. Walder can't turn around and claim that Roose killed Robb and he did nothing wrong. The host is responsible for his guests safety. We see another example in the Dance of the Dragons when Lord Baratheon refused to allow Aemond attack Lucerys under his walls. 

 

No one in the books does, nor do they claim he has broken guest rights. He is labelled a turncloak and child killer.

The ghost in winterfell chapter DoD.

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Their men have been killed, their horses as well. How would that not and be an attack on the host? Why the qualifier of it not being a violation of having unless having murdered the host's family members?

 

 

I remember a Ryswell men being killed (or was it Flint?) And one of the Walders. Neither are Bolton whether by lineage or by being from Bolton lands.

Quote

The IT gifted the Boltons WF so isn't that the end of it? It is now theirs legally.

 

He's annointed with the holy oils swore the oaths, and the RK is legally recognized place of residency? and really is his home. Robert named him as his succesore(not knowing he what Joffery was), but nonetheless the RK is his.

Both are in the eyes of men, not Gods.

Also seven hold no power while Old Gods and R'hllor have some powers, so Fot7 septons smearing oil all over doesn't mean anything.