Melissandre, R'hllor and the Wall

[divica]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

yes

The Wall stops them otherwise they would have crossed by now.  At least they can't cross on their own.  They have to be brought across not unlike Davos taking Melisandre across the barriers imposed on her at Storm's end.

If mel knew how to row she could have gone to storm's end alone.

With your quotes I think that at most the wights can t move while under the Wall. Once they cross over the wal they can move around. In adition the others can t send new orders to the wights once they are over the Wall (if jon can t comunicate with ghost then the others shouldn t be able to comunicate with the wights).

However this limitation is easy to get over with the wights. The others just have to find a gate or hole in the Wall (wildling caves?) and throw the wights with enough force for them to cross over. Otherwise the other should be trying to get human hostages to make some wildlings move wights across the Wall. It sounds incridibly stupid to kill all the people that can help you if you don t have a very good plan.

And they wouldn t have attacked the Wall yet because they are extremelly vulnerable during the day. If the wights stop working with the sun then the NW would easily burn them all.

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I've wondered about this as well.  Certainly the wights seem to act in unison when they all turn and stare at Varamyr.  I think they react to the smell of warm blood.  I've questioned how Small Paul managed to track down Sam and Gilly.  She says they are attracted to life and newborns stink of life.  So while I think it's possible for them to be controlled (Othor and Jafr) ; it sees that they act automatically in other ways.  The wights in front of the cave of greenseer for example are inanimate until the sun goes down.  Coldhands is anxious to get Bran to the cave before the sun goes down.  Then they react to the life or blood that they smell. 

Not only that. The wights can t have the personality and emotions they had in life. Otherwise they wouldn t attack the living. And if they were completly autonomous then they would be impossible to control. For the wights to move together in some kind of formation and attack specific targets they must have some intelect in them that is diferent from what they had in life. And for all the wights (except cold hands) to obey the WW it would sugest some king of hive control.

[kissdbyfire]

53 minutes ago, divica said:

Were they still dead or faking being dead?

Weren t some NW brothers talking about the corpses were taking too long to decompose (this might be my imagination)

"Dead", between quotation marks... with what we know at this point it's impossible to be sure what exactly their state was. But they weren't moving, the hand Ghost brings wasn't moving, etc. 

[The Fattest Leech]

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, that's my take as well.

ADwD, Bran III

“The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. Summer dug up a severed arm, black and covered with hoarfrost, its fingers opening and closing as it pulled itself across the frozen snow. There was still enough meat on it to fill his empty belly, and after that was done he cracked the arm bones for the marrow. Only then did the arm remember it was dead.”

ETA: replied to LynnS before reading the other posts. @The Fattest Leech, I think you are referring to the passage I just quoted here.

 

Yes. Thank you. On my phone and didn’t have a good way to add the proper quote. Glad to see my memory wasn’t too far off 

[divica]

21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, that's my take as well.

ADwD, Bran III

“The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. Summer dug up a severed arm, black and covered with hoarfrost, its fingers opening and closing as it pulled itself across the frozen snow. There was still enough meat on it to fill his empty belly, and after that was done he cracked the arm bones for the marrow. Only then did the arm remember it was dead.”

ETA: replied to LynnS before reading the other posts. @The Fattest Leech, I think you are referring to the passage I just quoted here.

 

 

25 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Im on my phone and only have a second, but, when Bran is im Bloodraven cave and their are wighs lurking on the other side of the ward (get it? Ward), and Summer is eating that wight hand, that is when Bran makes the realization that only when summer crack the bone and eat (?) the marrow did the eight “remember” it was dead. 

That may be a big bit of info for later in the game. 

Does it really matter? What kind of weapon can be used to extract the bone marrow of wights in a short period of time? People might use hammers to break the bones multiple times for the boné marrow to leak out?

[divica]

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

"Dead", between quotation marks... with what we know at this point it's impossible to be sure what exactly their state was. But they weren't moving, the hand Ghost brings wasn't moving, etc. 

using Lynns quote

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

"Othor," announced Ser Jaremy Rykker, "beyond a doubt. And this one was Jafer Flowers." He turned the corpse over with his foot, and the dead white face stared up at the overcast sky with blue, blue eyes. "They were Ben Stark's men, both of them."

It is highly implicit with the blue eyes that they were wightified.

[LynnS]

24 minutes ago, divica said:

With your quotes I think that at most the wights can t move while under the Wall. Once they cross over the wal they can move around. In adition the others can t send new orders to the wights once they are over the Wall (if jon can t comunicate with ghost then the others shouldn t be able to comunicate with the wights).

This is another big question:  how are they directed? I go back to Old Nan's stories that the Others rode pale white spiders big as hounds. What does she mean by that?  I doubt there are spiders big as hounds; but riding implies controlling and spiders imply something that is connected to a web or net.  So are they white spiders or do the wights behave like spiders connected to the some web?

24 minutes ago, divica said:

However this limitation is easy to get over with the wights. The others just have to find a gate or hole in the Wall (wildling caves?) and throw the wights with enough force for them to cross over. Otherwise the other should be trying to get human hostages to make some wildlings move wights across the Wall. It sounds incridibly stupid to kill all the people that can help you if you don t have a very good plan.

We're told that the Wall protects itself and the magic in the wall is woven between rock and ice; so I'm not sure the wights can get under the Wall either otherwise we wouldn't have the business of Joramun's horn bringing down the Wall or more likely the wards

I don't think the Others are interested in hostages. That's how they increase their number  Killing all the people might be their only objective if you consider that the wildlings are being herded towards the Wall or as some have described it a weir or dam for trapping fish.  Ygritte tells us that the Wall is made o' blood and if you are the wildlings trapped by the Wall; then blood on the Wall is the result.  

24 minutes ago, divica said:

And they wouldn t have attacked the Wall yet because they are extremelly vulnerable during the day. If the wights stop working with the sun then the NW would easily burn them all.

That depends on what is meant by the long night.  In the north the nights are 24 hours a day in the winter.  But yes fire seems to be the most effective means for destroying the wights, so a dragon would come in handy.  Not to mention giants wielding bone crushing mauls.

24 minutes ago, divica said:

Not only that. The wights can t have the personality and emotions they had in life. Otherwise they wouldn t attack the living. And if they were completly autonomous then they would be impossible to control. For the wights to move together in some kind of formation and attack specific targets they must have some intelect in them that is diferent from what they had in life. And for all the wights (except cold hands) to obey the WW it would sugest some king of hive control.

I agree.

I do wonder about Eastwatch by the Sea and 'dead things in the water'.  If the wights managed to get their hands on some ships or the sea froze; could they get around the Wall?     

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, divica said:

using Lynns quote

It is highly implicit with the blue eyes that they were wightified.

Yes. Actually, there's zero doubts or questions regarding that. 

[kissdbyfire]

38 minutes ago, divica said:

Not only that. The wights can t have the personality and emotions they had in life. Otherwise they wouldn t attack the living. And if they were completly autonomous then they would be impossible to control. For the wights to move together in some kind of formation and attack specific targets they must have some intelect in them that is diferent from what they had in life. And for all the wights (except cold hands) to obey the WW it would sugest some king of hive control.

That's why I want to know if Martin's description of Waymar Royce post-wightification is deliberate or a mistake. If it is deliberate, then it's a huge clue pointing towards the wights' brains being controlled by someone/something. 

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think the Others are interested in hostages.  Killing all the people might be their only objective if you consider that the wildlings are being herded towards the Wall or as some have described it a weir or dam for trapping fish.  Ygritte tells us that the Wall is made o' blood and if you are the wildlings trapped by the Wall; then blood on the Wall is the result.  

This. And then Jon lets them pass, and sort of fucks everything up! 

[LynnS]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

This. And then Jon lets them pass, and sort of fucks everything up! 

He certainly does! 

[divica]

7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This is another big question:  how are they directed? I go back to Old Nan's stories that the Others rode pale white spiders big as hounds. What does she mean by that?  I doubt there are spiders big as hounds; but riding implies controlling and spiders imply something that is connected to a web or net.  So are they white spiders or do the wights behave like spiders connected to the some web?

I like your idea about it being kind of a methaphor. On the other it coud be very big crabs. I always think that the dead things in the water are dead crabs (don t remember why).

 

9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

We're told that the Wall protects itself and the magic in the wall is woven between rock and ice; so I'm not sure the wights can get under the Wall either otherwise we wouldn't have the business of Joramun's horn bringing down the Wall or more likely the wards

I don't think the Others are interested in hostages. That's how they increase their number  Killing all the people might be their only objective if you consider that the wildlings are being herded towards the Wall or as some have described it a weir or dam for trapping fish.  Ygritte tells us that the Wall is made o' blood and if you are the wildlings trapped by the Wall; then blood on the Wall is the result.      

I don t see a big diference between trowing wight acrros the Wall or having NW brother carrying them. If one Works the other should also work.

And I don think that joramun's horn will bring down the Wall or break its wards. I don t see any reason to not destroy such a dangerous horn or at the very least send it as far away as possible.

In adition, it seems that mance made up that story about it destroying the Wall because Joramun is suposed to have used the horn and the Wall still stands. Besides the story says it awakes the Giants from the earth. I think it makes much more sense to think that it awakes very big beings (either true Giants or dragons) and that mance wanted to use them to destroy the Wall. Because big beings that are controled by the horn would be able to open a hole in the Wall.

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That depends on what is meant by the long night.  In the north the nights are 24 hours a day in the winter.  But yes fire seems to be the most effective means for destroying the wights, so a dragon would come in handy.  Not to mention giants wielding bone crushing mauls.

I agree.

I do wonder about Eastwatch by the Sea and 'dead things in the water'.  If the wights managed to get their hands on some ships or the sea froze; could they get around the Wall?     

I think we must believe that the wards in the Wall divide the whole world and the Wall is just a structure that is used as a defensive position in case of an attack. Otherwise boats would make the Wall useless.

And the dead thing must be creatures that live near the coast and not sea monsters like krakens. Otherwise the WW are unstopable because it is nearly impossible to kill a wightified kraken in asoiaf universe. Even with dragons!

And I think the long night really means that there was no sun, so the WW were able to move 24/7. Otherwise they aren t that dangerous.

[divica]

16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

He certainly does! 

It is also interesting that the wildlings were keeping away from the Wall because they were convinced mel burned all the wildlings. If they others wanted to keep the wildlings in the north then r'hllor (or his priest) was actually helping them. 

And we also have the missing ranger that might not have been killed by the weeper...

And then we have the hardhome vision. If it is a vision to their doom then maybe it wasn t sent by BR or bran...

[Lady Anna]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I've been studying these books for years and I still don't know how things will turn out.  I'm pretty sure that nobody has it all figured out.  Don't be a smarty pants.    

I wasn't being a smarty pants. Of course we don't know how things will turn out, but you responded to the other user like they were wrong to think Jon and Dany would end up together because 'oh no they will die'. You can't possibly know that. One of you could be right, both of you could be wrong. It's just different opinions.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, divica said:

I like your idea about it being kind of a methaphor. On the other it coud be very big crabs. I always think that the dead things in the water are dead crabs (don t remember why).

I thought that the dead things in the water were wights and that they are not just contained by the Wall but they can't cross seawater either.  Patchface makes a reference the serving men as crabs.  You could consider wight bodies to be shells I suppose. 

I'm not sure what krakens might be other than the obvious .  @ravenous readerand others have suggested that the wierwoods themselves are krakens with their long twisting roots impaling the greenseers. 

 

[zandru]

1 hour ago, divica said:

Does it really matter? What kind of weapon can be used to extract the bone marrow of wights in a short period of time? People might use hammers to break the bones multiple times for the boné marrow to leak out?

Fire seems quicker and more complete. Particularly if there's a big crowd of ice wights. Here, Melisandre could be really helpful, if that trick with the eagle is something she can manage on a larger scale. Of course, it would seem like dragons would be perfect. Too bad Daenerys seems stuck in Essos for the rest of eternity. We may need to wait on Euron stealing one or more of her dragons. And being altruistic. Oh wait - Westeros is doomed.

I don't believe the wights have a "hive mind", or much of a mind at all, whether individually or collectively. It would seem that they are being controlled by the Others - and we don't have any indication whether they are individuals.

[zandru]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

@ravenous readerand others have suggested that the wierwoods themselves are krakens with their long twisting roots impaling the greenseers. 

There are actually differences between plants and animals. Few krakens have leaves, for example, and can't be cut down for wood. I know I'm being literal here, and it's probably some figurative metaphorical allusional whoozits that's above my pay grade.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, zandru said:

I don't believe the wights have a "hive mind", or much of a mind at all, whether individually or collectively. It would seem that they are being controlled by the Others - and we don't have any indication whether they are individuals.

I agree.  

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, zandru said:

There are actually differences between plants and animals. Few krakens have leaves, for example, and can't be cut down for wood. I know I'm being literal here, and it's probably some figurative metaphorical allusional whoozits that's above my pay grade.

I think this comes from Moqorro's vision of the tall and twisted thing with ten long arms and one dark eye.  It's an allusion to Euron of course; but could just as easily match Bloodraven on his weirwood throne.  Incidently, GRRM has referred to the Iron Throne as a tall and twisted thing as well.

[zandru]

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think this comes from Moqorro's vision of the tall and twisted thing with ten long arms and one dark eye.  It's an allusion to Euron of course; but could just as easily match Bloodraven on his weirwood throne.  Incidently, GRRM has referred to the Iron Throne as a tall and twisted thing as well.

Now that's cool. This ambiguity points out the intriguing, annoying quality of prophesies, visions and dreams - which has been a part of our stories (in this world) for many thousands of years!

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, divica said:

 

Does it really matter? What kind of weapon can be used to extract the bone marrow of wights in a short period of time? People might use hammers to break the bones multiple times for the boné marrow to leak out?

I don't think it is so much about getting to the marrow as it is breaking the bones which hold the memory, which is breaking the "spell" or connection to whatever that is animating them. Not so much the marrow itself. It might be that you have to crack each ligament for each part to stop moving, which helps when there is no fire to make them burn up so quickly. Or not?

[zandru]

19 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

don't think it is so much about getting to the marrow as it is breaking the bones which hold the memory

Robert Baratheon (when young) would really have been in his element, smashing and cracking bones with his big-arse war hammer.