What Stannis intend to do with Melisandre after taking the Iron throne?

[Universal Sword Donor]

8 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

In his mind, Alester was doing the back-stabbing right? I don't think he'd turn against Melissandre after conquering the IT if he still saw her as loyal to him. We don't have to worry about that because he's got like 0,1% chance of sitting on the IT. 

He is very "righteous", like Tarly for exemple. Two terrible people in my humble opinion, but not treacherous I think. I can't see Stannis using Melissandre just as means to an end. 

 

Very much so. Not how he should have taken it as it was a damn good offer but yes.

[Lady Dacey]

4 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Very much so. Not how he should have taken it as it was a damn good offer but yes.

100% agreed

[Lady Dacey]

27 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

If he pulls off a win at Winterfell I can see him shrugging Mel off.   Leave her where she can do the most good with her biggest fan, Selyse.    It's a triple win for Stannis. 

That's interesting! I was thinking more in terms of what Stannis would do if he became king, but looking at what he might do just next is indeed much more relevant. I like what you propose. There is the fact that Melissandre still believes Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn, so she probably wants him around in the big fight against the Others. I can see him momentarily shrugging her off, but I really can't see him casting her aside or actually denying her something she says is necessary to appease R'hllor. I mean he did have all the wildling burn weirwood pieces before crossing the Wall - that was sad and totally unnecessary. He was intent on legitimazing Jon Snow and burning the entire goodswood of Winterfell. And let's not start on Edric Storm... 

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

That's interesting! I was thinking more in terms of what Stannis would do if he became king, but looking at what he might do just next is indeed much more relevant. I like what you propose. There is the fact that Melissandre still believes Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn, so she probably wants him around in the big fight against the Others. I can see him momentarily shrugging her off, but I really can't see him casting her aside or actually denying her something she says is necessary to appease R'hllor. I mean he did have all the wildling burn weirwood pieces before crossing the Wall - that was sad and totally unnecessary. He was intent on legitimazing Jon Snow and burning the entire goodswood of Winterfell. And let's not start on Edric Storm... 

And he will burn Shireen.

[Curled Finger]

7 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

That's interesting! I was thinking more in terms of what Stannis would do if he became king, but looking at what he might do just next is indeed much more relevant. I like what you propose. There is the fact that Melissandre still believes Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn, so she probably wants him around in the big fight against the Others. I can see him momentarily shrugging her off, but I really can't see him casting her aside or actually denying her something she says is necessary to appease R'hllor. I mean he did have all the wildling burn weirwood pieces before crossing the Wall - that was sad and totally unnecessary. He was intent on legitimazing Jon Snow and burning the entire goodswood of Winterfell. And let's not start on Edric Storm... 

Thanks, Lady.   The regions who have fallen for R'hllor are relatively weak or meager compared to the real strength of the 7 kingdoms.   Remember, they aren't burning septs and other gods in the Riverlands as tokens of faith to R'hllor.    I don't see it in Essos, either.  So maybe burning people and the idols of their faith really isn't a "thing" in R'hllor so much as it serves Melisandre's agenda--whatever that is.  I'm thinking Stannis is a smart man.  Forgive me, I just finished AGOT before we meet Stannis and how well thought of he is.   Even Robb struggles with joining the north to Stannis' forces.   No one has heard from Stannis.   This is sort of in response to Renly usurping Stannis' claim.   Stannis is a force to reckon with and was long before he fell in with R'hllor.  He allows Mel her moments of appeasement which may actually fall in line with his own agenda.  

Spoiler

We see Stannis in the full of himself in Theon 1 TWOW.   He isn't arguing with whatsherface over burning people, but uses the fire to punish the cannibals.   That was brilliant, if you ask me.   He found a way to make everyone happy in that from ADWD.   In Theon he is bold and in everyone's face, keeping his own counsel and being a bad ass in general.    I tell you Mel and Davos both hold him back to both his detriment and betterment at different times.  We get a look at the legendary commander Stannis was supposed to be in AGOT in TWOW.  

I don't think he's nearly as tied to R'hllor or doing the absolute right thing as we are led to believe in his good cop, bad cop routines with Davos and Mel.  He will keep people around he finds useful.   If Mel or Davos for that matter become unuseful to him, he will get rid of them.  He's already got rid of both of them.  The only one I see him absolutely staying with is Selyse as she is his duty.   Stannis doesn't believe in R'hllor anymore than Jamie believes in the Warrior.  He's just a guy trying very hard to do his wretched duty.    Then we do have Mel's asking for Azor Ahai and only seeing Snow.   Sooner or later she will jump the Stannis ship anyway.  

[Lord Lannister]

To Stannis, Melisandre is a tool. Useful in obtaining the throne, easily set aside once it's not needed anymore. She'd end up like Thoros was in Robert's court probably. Tolerated, but no real influence. Beyond that which she has over the queen anyways.

[Lady Dacey]

36 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

So maybe burning people and the idols of their faith really isn't a "thing" in R'hllor so much as it serves Melisandre's agenda--whatever that is.

I was under that impression too until we got the Moqorro/Victarion interactions, when they burn the maester to call good winds, and then the seven most beautiful prisioners... now I'm divided. I'd say we don't know enough about the faith of the red god to draw serious conclusions. We know Thoros didn't really believe in R'hollor until he was able to bring Beric back, so maybe the way they worship in the Riverlands is more freeform. I mean there isn't even a tradition to light night-fires when Arya is around with the BwB. She would wake up in the middle of the night in the darkness - you can't imagine Melissandre or Moqorro allowing that on their camp, can you? I find it more likely that the volantene and Melissandre are closer to how that religion works. This is Benerro's speech in Tyrion VII

Quote

 

The priest was pointing at the Black Wall behind the temple, gesturing up at its parapets, where a handful of armored guardsmen stood gazing down. "What is he saying?" Tyrion asked the knight.

"That Daenerys stands in peril. The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit … conspiring at betrayal with godless outlanders …"

He's not talking about the Others, that's about Daenerys enemies. Honestly, that gives me the chills. It's a very intolerant frame of mind and it makes me cringe. 

But, Stannis may not be buying it. True. I don't think he believes in R'hllor as a god, but he sees his personal red priestess pet as a source of power, that's undeniable. And he is often willing to listen to her. 

Spoiler

The Stannis we saw in Theon TWOW really surprised me. I hope we get to see more of him. And that my impression of him so far is proven wrong. I've been wrong about these books many times before, but never disappointed. 

The Davos POVs gave me a picture of a Stannis that is not really smart or that ready to "use" people so to speak. The comment of Donal Noye about him (he's like iron, brittle, he'll break before he bends) didn't help my view of Stannis either. He's presented to us as great military commander, but not a very cunning man. When we get to his interactions with Jon Snow I was already biased against him, maybe I should reread those chapters with a fresh mind...

[Curled Finger]

36 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

I was under that impression too until we got the Moqorro/Victarion interactions, when they burn the maester to call good winds, and then the seven most beautiful prisioners... now I'm divided. I'd say we don't know enough about the faith of the red god to draw serious conclusions. We know Thoros didn't really believe in R'hollor until he was able to bring Beric back, so maybe the way they worship in the Riverlands is more freeform. I mean there isn't even a tradition to light night-fires when Arya is around with the BwB. She would wake up in the middle of the night in the darkness - you can't imagine Melissandre or Moqorro allowing that on their camp, can you? I find it more likely that the volantene and Melissandre are closer to how that religion works. This is Benerro's speech in Tyrion VII

He's not talking about the Others, that's about Daenerys enemies. Honestly, that gives me the chills. It's a very intolerant frame of mind and it makes me cringe. 

But, Stannis may not be buying it. True. I don't think he believes in R'hllor as a god, but he sees his personal red priestess pet as a source of power, that's undeniable. And he is often willing to listen to her. 

  Hide contents

The Stannis we saw in Theon TWOW really surprised me. I hope we get to see more of him. And that my impression of him so far is proven wrong. I've been wrong about these books many times before, but never disappointed. 

The Davos POVs gave me a picture of a Stannis that is not really smart or that ready to "use" people so to speak. The comment of Donal Noye about him (he's like iron, brittle, he'll break before he bends) didn't help my view of Stannis either. He's presented to us as great military commander, but not a very cunning man. When we get to his interactions with Jon Snow I was already biased against him, maybe I should reread those chapters with a fresh mind...

Ah Lady, I have to get up earlier to reply to you!   You got me, I forgot about Moqorro!  I still wonder why we don't see this practice in Essos more often.   Maybe it's a thing only certain sects of R'hllor that practice human sacrifice?  I have no doubt Moqorro is a powerful Red Priest.  It seems to me that this human or blood sacrifice would be a more common occurrence.   

Stannis isn't for everyone.    He isn't easy to like or root for.   His single mindedness is either a great or horrible character trait.  I don't know that anything in the main series other than the opinions of characters in AGOT speaks to Stannis' greatness more than Asha's chapters in ADWD and that chapter I mentioned in spoilers.   I believe that is the Stannis people, even Robb right before he is proclaimed king, wanted to rally behind.    With this read so fresh in mind I really wonder how Stannis' campaign would have gone without Renly's defiance.   

Excellent choice of words for describing Melisandre's meaning to Stannis, his pet Red Priestess.  The only part that makes me gag is his seeing things in the flames himself.    

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

3 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

 

Ah Lady, I have to get up earlier to reply to you!   You got me, I forgot about Moqorro!  I still wonder why we don't see this practice in Essos more often.   Maybe it's a thing only certain sects of R'hllor that practice human sacrifice?  I have no doubt Moqorro is a powerful Red Priest.  It seems to me that this human or blood sacrifice would be a more common occurrence.   

Well they are still a cult at the moment. They can only start the persecution and burning of sinners and none-believers once they have power.

[Curled Finger]

32 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Well they are still a cult at the moment. They can only start the persecution and burning of sinners and none-believers once they have power.

Really?   Not trying to argue, I just remember a lot of gods in Essos, the Red Priests being prevalent among the people.  Not so many Faith of the Seven or Old Gods, but plenty of Red Priests.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Really?   Not trying to argue, I just remember a lot of gods in Essos, the Red Priests being prevalent among the people.  Not so many Faith of the Seven or Old Gods, but plenty of Red Priests.  

Among the disenfranchised of society; the slaves, the very poor ect yes. among the elites not much. They've started a very good PR campaign helping out the less fortunate and trying to ride Daenarys' wave in popularity as well which again would turn off a lot the aristocrats in the region.

[Lady Dacey]

11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Among the disenfranchised of society; the slaves, the very poor ect yes. among the elites not much. They've started a very good PR campaign helping out the less fortunate and trying to ride Daenarys' wave in popularity as well which again would turn off a lot the aristocrats in the region.

There's a point to what you're saying, that the red god is more popular between the masses and slaves than the elite. I wholeheartedly agree with you - but I must remind you that so was christianism for three centuries before the Roman Empire adopted it as an official religion. 

R'hllor also isn't the official religion in any city or country or realm, which makes me think of judaism - would call that a cult for that reason? Jews had been around for centuries and they were ostracized in medieval Europe and wandered about a lot. Of course because they believe they are the chosen people they never tried to convert people into their religion, but I still think the parallel stands. R'hllorism is an organized religion.  

I think we are given a picture of R'hllorism being pretty big. This is from the world book:

Quote

Each city has its own customs and histories. Each has its own gods, too—although the red priesthood of R'hllor holds sway in all of them and often wields considerable power.

And this:

Quote

The Lord of Light, red R'hllor, has a great temple on Braavos as well,for his worshippers have grown ever more numerous in the past hundred years.

So they've been growing for a while already, it's not just connected to Daenerys... And R'hllor is extremely popular in Volantis, which is the most populous city in Essos. This is the widow of the waterfront: 

Quote

"Oh, I think it will be war as well, but not the war they want." The old woman leaned forward, her black eyes gleaming. "I think that red R'hllor has more worshipers in this city than all the other gods together. Have you heard Benerro preach?"

So she believes they have enough power to wage war. And we know they can be aggressive:

Quote

"The red priests would be wise to hold their tongues," said Qavo Nogarys. "Already there has been fighting between their followers and those who worship other gods. Benerro's rantings will only serve to bring a savage wrath down upon his head."

We also get a glimpse of the economical power they have here, from the world book:

Quote

The Temple of the Lord of Light in Volantis is said to be the greatest in all the world; in Remnants of the Dragonlords, Archmaester Gramyon claims that it is fully three times larger than the Great Sept of Baelor.

All who serve within this mighty temple are slaves, bought as children and trained to become priests, temple prostitutes, or warriors

Why would a religion train warriors? Well I think the faith militant has answered that for us... to ensure their holy power. 

Who pays for this gigantic structure and so many slaves? This is Tyrion's account of the temple:

Quote

Three blocks later the street opened up before them onto a huge torchlit plaza, and there it stood. Seven save me, that's got to be three times the size of the Great Sept of Baelor. An enormity of pillars, steps, buttresses, bridges, domes, and towers flowing into one another as if they had all been chiseled from one collossal rock, the Temple of the Lord of Light loomed like Aegon's High Hill. A hundred hues of red, yellow, gold, and orange met and melded in the temple walls, dissolving one into the other like clouds at sunset. Its slender towers twisted ever upward, frozen flames dancing as they reached for the sky. Fire turned to stone. Huge nightfires burned beside the temple steps, and between them the High Priest had begun to speak.

And we know just how opulent the Sept of Baelor is. So I think we can safely say that R'hllorism is not a "minor cult", and that the worshippers of R'hllor have means to use power if they want to. 

 

 

Edited to add: maybe this is not so relevant to this thread, sorry. If you want we can move it somewhere else to discuss how big or how much power the religions hold in Westeros and Essos. That would be most interesting. I'm a "fictional religion" nerd I guess. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

There's a point to what you're saying, that the red god is more popular between the masses and slaves than the elite. I wholeheartedly agree with you - but I must remind you that so was christianism for three centuries before the Roman Empire adopted it as an official religion. 

R'hllor also isn't the official religion in any city or country or realm, which makes me think of judaism - would call that a cult for that reason? Jews had been around for centuries and they were ostracized in medieval Europe and wandered about a lot. Of course because they believe they are the chosen people they never tried to convert people into their religion, but I still think the parallel stands. R'hllorism is an organized religion.  

Eh, Christianity was a cult during its very initial stages. So was Islam. And buddism.

A cult ultimately is just a small religion in society (most likely new). It has negative connotations attached to it but I didn't mean it as a slur against Rh'lorists.

Theyre a rapidly expanding cult.

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Eh, Christianity was a cult during its very initial stages. So was Islam. And buddism.

A cult ultimately is just a small religion in society (most likely new). It has negative connotations attached to it but I didn't mean it as a slur against Rh'lorists.

Theyre a rapidly expanding cult.

I totally got your meaning! I just don't think they are a small religion, not at all - and I believe I've brought enough evidence of their size and power with the quotes. The fact that it's not the "official state religion" anywhere doesn't diminish its force.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎1‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 3:34 PM, Curled Finger said:

Some great quips here.  Stannis doesn't like women and I doubt he likes Mel any more than anyone else.   He likes Davos, but that didn't stop him from chopping off fingertips or tossing him in jail.  The most current look I got at Stannis shows a man vitalized by his own machinations, untethered by either counselor.   If he pulls off a win at Winterfell I can see him shrugging Mel off.   Leave her where she can do the most good with her biggest fan, Selyse.    It's a triple win for Stannis.  There really isn't any reason for Mel to follow him to Kings Landing.  She's already made up her mind her fight is where she is.   I guess if he won the IT he could send a serious fighting force to the Wall to aid her, but I doubt he would continue to court the favor of R'hllor.   

Every time there is another description of Stannis it seems like he is getting more gaunt, with leathery skin stretched tight over bone and lean muscle, with piercing blue eyes filled with rage and hostility. Sound anyone else we know?

 

[HexMachina]

@Lady Dacey I think the burning people thing can be explained in that it’s only done to tap into “R’hllor magic” (I.e. when a priest wants to do some kind of magic,they believe it’s necessasry - assuming it’s not manageable by tricks and powders anyway). Everyday worship however presumably doesn’t entail human sacrifice, which is likely why we don’t hear of it going on in Essos frequently - it would only occur in comparatively rare circumstances. Also explains the Riverlands - the smallfolk are worshipping a new old god but not tapping into its’ supposed power 

 

(please note none of this necessarily presumes human sacrifice is actually needed for these “magics” but it’s enough that it’s believed to be needed)

[Lollygag]

As to the popularity and status of R'hllorism, Illyrio is a very prominent follower.

AGOT Daenerys I

"Regal," Magister Illyrio said, stepping through an archway. He moved with surprising delicacy for such a massive man. Beneath loose garments of flame-colored silk, rolls of fat jiggled as he walked. Gemstones glittered on every finger, and his man had oiled his forked yellow beard until it shone like real gold. "May the Lord of Light shower you with blessings on this most fortunate day, Princess Daenerys," the magister said as he took her hand. He bowed his head, showing a thin glimpse of crooked yellow teeth through the gold of his beard. "She is a vision, Your Grace, a vision," he told her brother. "Drogo will be enraptured."

…

The nine-towered manse of Khal Drogo sat beside the waters of the bay, its high brick walls overgrown with pale ivy. It had been given to the khal by the magisters of Pentos, Illyrio told them. The Free Cities were always generous with the horselords. "It is not that we fear these barbarians," Illyrio would explain with a smile. "The Lord of Light would hold our city walls against a million Dothraki, or so the red priests promise … yet why take chances, when their friendship comes so cheap?"

 

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

@Lady Dacey I think the burning people thing can be explained in that it’s only done to tap into “R’hllor magic” (I.e. when a priest wants to do some kind of magic,they believe it’s necessasry - assuming it’s not manageable by tricks and powders anyway). Everyday worship however presumably doesn’t entail human sacrifice, which is likely why we don’t hear of it going on in Essos frequently - it would only occur in comparatively rare circumstances. Also explains the Riverlands - the smallfolk are worshipping a new old god but not tapping into its’ supposed power 

 

(please note none of this necessarily presumes human sacrifice is actually needed for these “magics” but it’s enough that it’s believed to be needed)

Oh, I agree. Burning people probably isn't a common thing. They are very intolerant though, that's indisputable. They deem all other religious beliefs as "in service of the great other" and all other deities as demons. They have a very "if you're not with us, you're against us" frame of mind, always prepared to burn idols from other religions and blame catastrophic events on people not paying proper homage to R'hllor. 

Quote

Yet to some, this plethora of gods was a source of continuing grievance. "The man who honors all the gods honors none at all," a prophet of the Lord of Light, R'hllor the Red, once famously declared.

 

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Every time there is another description of Stannis it seems like he is getting more gaunt, with leathery skin stretched tight over bone and lean muscle, with piercing blue eyes filled with rage and hostility. Sound anyone else we know?

 

Sure doesn't sound like his old drunken brother!    I love the starving grace and cunning he's got going on.    May he never bend! 

[Lady Dacey]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Every time there is another description of Stannis it seems like he is getting more gaunt, with leathery skin stretched tight over bone and lean muscle, with piercing blue eyes filled with rage and hostility. Sound anyone else we know?

 

Sure doesn't sound like his old drunken brother!    I love the starving grace and cunning he's got going on.    May he never bend! 

I know it's not what @John Suburbs had in mind, but my first thought was "Gendry!"