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How would Ser Davos react to Stannis giving Shireen to the flames?

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On 5/10/2018 at 12:19 AM, Yukle said:

10,000% agreed.

Anyone who thinks otherwise, say in television fan-fiction, is an idiot.

I guess this makes me an idiot, even though I don't give a rat's ass about the show. You should be more careful with the words you use. We all have different interpretations of the text that have nothing to do with the show. 

Quote

Stannis ground his teeth again. "I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. Tell him, my lady."
Melisandre said, "Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer with the heart's blood of his own beloved wife. If a man with a thousand cows gives one to god, that is nothing. But a man who offers the only cow he owns . . ." (Davos VI, ASOS 63)

 

Edited by Widow's Watch

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2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I guess this makes me an idiot, even though I don't give a rat's ass about the show. You should be more careful with the words you use. We all have different interpretations of the text that have nothing to do with the show. 

 

The quote you provided is FACTS, if Mel burned Shireen for a purpose of holding the wall or saving Westeros from the WW I believe Stannis wouldn't kill her. He wouldn't like her one bit and the sex would stop but he would still require her in the long run. 

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If Stannis agreed to let Mel burn his daughter I think Davos would leave Stannis’ service.

A reminder:

Spoiler

Shirleen did not teach Davos to read. A maester at Dragonstone was giving Davos lessons. Davos’ interactions with Shirleen were limited to polite moments in passing.

That said --- Stannis can’t agree to the burning of his daughter because his daughter is at the Wall and Stannis is at an old crofters village. His heath seems to be improving now he is away from Mel.

If anyone agrees to the burning of Stannis’ daughter it would be Selyse.

If Mel and Selyse burn Shirleen I think that Stannis (if he makes it back to the Wall) would have Mel executed or banished and Selyse executed or sent to the Silent Sisters. Both Mel and Selyse have witnessed Stannis’ wraith. Would they be willing to sacrifice his daughter? I don’t think so.

Stannis did become willing to offer up Edric after the leech thing. Speculation on my part, but Stannis appeared somewhat relieved when Davos had Edric removed from Dragonstone.

In hindsight, after reading in Mel’s DwD chapter about her chest of potions and powders’ a few things started to make sense to me --- such as Stannis’ change in health (physical appearance), his uncertainty about Renly’s death, and the Jon & Ygritte/Mel interaction.

There has only been one implied threat made toward Shirleen. That was made by Val.

What I am implying is that the free folk now know Mance is alive, there is a belief that Stannis is dead, the LC has been stabbed and that there is going to be a minor battle at CB in which Shirleen may die.

One last thought. Back at the Wall due to the attempted assassination of the LC there is going to be chaos between the factions ---- the wildlings, the NW and Selyse’s men.

So not to derail this thread I started a new one “Meanwhile back at the Wall” if anyone is interested, or not.

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10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Eh? It's not as though he doesn't have the means to isolate her and doubtful he'd allow anyone but the maestros near her to which severely diminish the chance of spread. I imagine he tried every recommended to treat the disease by the maestor but I don't imagine most lords doing that much different; so long as the basic safety precautions are met there should be very little threat of this breaking out into a pandemic.

Greyscale is a very feared diseased that can easily spread, especially in damp places like Dragonstone. Maester Cressen had to have touched her to treat her and risk spreading the disease. As Maester he could easily catch and spread it once infected as he was the Castle Maester. Many lords would not risk such a thing for a female child of theirs if it risked the rest of his household.

11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And ship them off to where?

To the Bridge of Dream, where others with greyscale have been sent to live out their lives.

11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And whose to say Stannis didn't ship her off to somewhere like the citadel to get treatment until the contagious period passes?

Shireen nor anyone else have ever mentioned her being sent off anywhere to be treated. It's heavy implied Cressen is the one who treated her, from Dragonstone. I'm not even sure the Citadel houses those with greyscale. 

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11 hours ago, The Drunkard said:

I'm certain Stannis would have Mel and Selyse killed if they sacrificed Shireen behind his back. I can see him making the decision himself if the situation was dire enough, like if the Others have breached the Wall, but he's not the sort of person who would let others make the decision for him.

Exactly.

I can see only one way Shireen gets burned without Stannis knowing, which is him beeing dead. If Mel is trying to bring him back by sacrificing her, she might incidentally revive John (the real ptwp) but that's another topic..

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On 5/10/2018 at 7:08 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This war has far more at stake than who can rule a country; it's outcome may determine the survival of mankind as a whole. Martin is cited to have given D&D the idea of burning the girl so there's a real chance.of this happening in his next book. Stannis had a pretty good chance of deciding to burn Edric Storm, his bastard nephew, for an r  in this war; I don't think Shireen is absolutelyse  safe from that possibility if  gets to talking about it being absolutely necessary, and his duty as king and if he gets defeated you know say things Shireen is going to die anyway swiftly, and that she would never have a chance of taking the throne since she'd be seen as the grey-scale afflicted daughter of a failed Usurpher who had tried to steal his nephews throne. At least with sacrificing her him he deprives his enemies to have her humiliated, and have her die for the noblest purpose there could possibly be.

Stannis specifically tells Justin Massey that if he dies, Justin is to work to put Shireen on the throne. she is the last of the true born Baratheons. Show Stannis is very different.  

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On 5/8/2018 at 5:01 PM, Stormking902 said:

Lets say before the battle of Ice that is heavily theorized in this forum Mel is able to convince Shireens mother that the girl must be sacrificed to the lord of light to save Stannis and she will be granted a boy after the war for her great commitment and blah blah, Stannis wins a huge victory and takes back WF and he allows Mel to stay in his service and doesn't punish his wife for giving Shireen up to be sacrificed. 

Although Stannis himself didn't give the order he still allows the people who commited the crime to face no punishment which since Stannis is so big on laws means they commited no crime at all. 

What does Ser Davos do next? 

Then we have a different story.  One of the lessons in the story is about the nature of prophecy.  Stannis should follow common sense.  There is no correlation between the burning of a little girl and victory in battle.  Prophecy is hit or miss, mostly miss, for most people.  

In your story, Stannis makes the sacrifice and wins a victory.  Many will say it's luck and the sacrifice had nothing to do with it.  Davos may fall into that camp.  I still think he will stick with Stannis.  He will grieve and mourn but I don't think he will leave Stannis after they win the battle of ice.  Winning the battle of ice is not the same as winning the iron throne.  The line of succession failed and the IT is up for grabs for anyone strong enough to take it.  Stannis will have to conquer Westeros to put his skinny ass on the throne.  And that is much harder than conquering  a drafty old castle in the north.

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15 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Stannis specifically tells Justin Massey that if he dies, Justin is to work to put Shireen on the throne. she is the last of the true born Baratheons. Show Stannis is very different.  

And Melisandre is the only one who can really explain and for that matter convince why his contingency plan of Justin working to get Shireen on the throne would be an excerise in futility. Shireen is the diseased riddled daughter of a traitor who tried to usurp his nephews throne. His claim of the children of Cersi being bastards of inchest is worthless. He has no proof and knows it.  It would only delay Shireen's death not prevent it, and the death the Lanister's have planned for her for all Stannis's knows is pure humiliation. 

She may have convinced him of burning Edric Storm being the right course. 

Show Stannis is not book Stannis. I'll be honest I find the Stannis of the books to be a far more compelling character. 

But, D&D did cite Martin for their inspiration in Stannis burning Shireen when faced with the backlash of the decision. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 Shireen is the diseased riddled daughter of a traitor who tried to usurp his nephews throne. His claim of the children of Cersi being bastards of inchest is worthless. He has no proof and knows it.  It would only delay Shireen's death not prevent it, and the death the Lanister's have planned for her for all Stannis's knows is pure humiliation. 

Only if he loses. 

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

She may have convinced him of burning Edric Storm being the right course. 

Edric is a bastard, not his true born kin 

5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Show Stannis is not book Stannis. I'll be honest I find the Stannis of the books to be a far more compelling character. 

Book Stannis is truly Just. Show Stannis is a tad crazy 

 

5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But, D&D did cite Martin for their inspiration in Stannis burning Shireen when faced with the backlash of the decision. \

I think shireen will burn, but it won't be on orders from her father 

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1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:
1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Only if he loses. 

Which he may. 

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Edric is a bastard, not his true born kin 

Edric is his kin and like a kid version of Robert, he's fostered the boy for years, and Stannis has even expressed a liking to him. The thought of killing him would be something Stannis could have not possibly seen him doing; until Melisandre laid down the reilty of what was at stake. I think Martin had that little crisis of conscience to give hint Stannis will sacrifice even his pride, his sense of justice and righteousness to save mankind. I can only imagine his  relief at hearing Davos smuggled Edric out before he had to decide whether or not he would sacrifice his brother's son

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:
1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Book Stannis is truly Just. Show Stannis is a tad crazy 

I honestly have the opposite view. Show Stannis always has a legitimate reason for his actions, you may not agree with him but you can tell he's of sound mind.

And book Stannis I feel is less just than show Stannis.

Hes shown making,more compromises with those he'd see hanged, plans on hanging Varys without any real proof of the Eunich having a crime, punish the the children of Cersi (possibly with death alongside their mother), and has in my view exacted pure mercy on Davos not justice. I mean Davos far from the show, came to sell Stannis and his men onions and fish for  pure profit; any other lord would have paid the amount of money Davos was asking for but they would offer no more to the crook after he'd given them the food. 

To be clear I fully admit, Stannis burning Shireen is by no means a certianty, just a real possibility. 

If not him I suspect Melisandre to do it to stop an outbreak of greyscale brought out by patch face.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Only if he loses. 

Edric is a bastard, not his true born kin 

Book Stannis is truly Just. Show Stannis is a tad crazy 

 

I think shireen will burn, but it won't be on orders from her father 

Refresh my old brain, but isn’t Edric Storm hiding out in Essos? 

And, if I remember the clip correctly, Mr Showrunners said Shireen burns, not that *Stannis* burns Shireen. 

 

In general, I guess to me it seems much more plausible that Melisandre the twitchy flame fingers and crony Selyse are going to burn Shireen, and maybe over in the kitchens in Nightfort, if not right in front of the gates at Castle Black. 

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Which he may. 

He will not make it south of the neck IMHO. I suspect he will die in the north. 

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Edric is his kin and like a kid version of Robert, he's fostered the boy for years, and Stannis has even expressed a liking to him. The thought of killing him would be something Stannis could have not possibly seen him doing; until Melisandre laid down the reilty of what was at stake. I think Martin had that little crisis of conscience to give hint Stannis will sacrifice even his pride, his sense of justice and righteousness to save mankind. I can only imagine his  relief at hearing Davos smuggled Edric out before he had to decide whether or not he would sacrifice his brother's son

when Varys calls him a "Truly Just Man" he was referring to his decisions, as in punishing Davos for his crimes even though he would be dead if it wasn't for him. Still, I see nothing in the books to believe that he would be willing to sacrifice his only heir thus ending the Baratheon  line

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And book Stannis I feel is less just than show Stannis.

Hes shown making,more compromises with those he'd see hanged, plans on hanging Varys without any real proof of the Eunich having a crime, punish the the children of Cersi (possibly with death alongside their mother), and has in my view exacted pure mercy on Davos not justice. I mean Davos far from the show, came to sell Stannis and his men onions and fish for  pure profit; any other lord would have paid the amount of money Davos was asking for but they would offer no more to the crook after he'd given them the food. 

This isn't an american court of law. Stannis may not have a smoking gun, but he is fully aware of what varys is capable of knowing, and if he found out about the twincest, varys probably knows and thus committed a crime by not informing his king. Joff is a Usurper, and deserves to die because of that.  Cersei committed numerous crimes just by being her.  Davos was not pure mercy. It was rewarding him for the good he has done while not letting him escape his crimes. And you don't know what any other would do, unless you have eaten rats and boiled leather due to starvation. 

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

To be clear I fully admit, Stannis burning Shireen is by no means a certianty, just a real possibility. 

If not him I suspect Melisandre to do it to stop an outbreak of greyscale brought out by patch face.

Where did you get patchface having greyscale? 

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Refresh my old brain, but isn’t Edric Storm hiding out in Essos? 

he is in Essos because Davos sent him there 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And, if I remember the clip correctly, Mr Showrunners said Shireen burns, not that *Stannis* burns Shireen. 

There are many instances of the thing we cannot mention not aligning with the books we read. I suspect Stannis' storyline is one of them. 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

In general, I guess to me it seems much more plausible that Melisandre the twitchy flame fingers and crony Selyse are going to burn Shireen, and maybe over in the kitchens in Nightfort, if not right in front of the gates at Castle Black. 

Exactly. I have always had the impression that Stannis' alignment with Mel is one of necessity rather than true belief. I also suspect Shireen will burn after the contents of the pink letter are revealed 

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43 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

This isn't an american court of law. Stannis may not have a smoking gun, but he is fully aware of what varys is capable of knowing, and if he found out about the twincest, varys probably knows and thus committed a crime by not informing his king. 

Then Stannis would have take his own head lest he be a hypocrite. He did not inform Robert. And his reasons for wanting Varys done away seems more due to him having an uncomfortable feeling about them, especially given his past alliegewnce as the Targyen's spymaster.

Either way executing Varys on such  a flimsy bais is not an action of a just man.

43 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Joff is a Usurper, and deserves to die because of that.

Joffery is a 11 year old boy who by showings doesnt actually believe he is not the son of Robert Baratheon. He's a child. He's guilty of many things, but Stannis stands to condemn him and his siblings along to suffer for having been born from a unnatural Union.

43 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Davos was not pure mercy. It was rewarding him for the good he has done while not letting him escape his crimes. And you don't know what any other would do, unless you have eaten rats and boiled leather due to starvation. 

I know most would pay any price if they could  for some good onions and fish. I suspect most lords' gratitude for the smuggler who sold them food when they were desperate and near death would be limited;after all it wasn't an act of altruism. It was for pure unadulterated profit.  It is not pure mercy; but it is not true justice either. The just thing for Stannis have done after paying Davos for the food he brought, is nothing really. The finger tips are such a small price to pay for the life Stannis granted Davos; many men of Davos's  would take it and view it as a blessing. Davos simply got far more than what honestly deserved-Davos already had his reward; the coin he got from selling the fish and onions. And he didn't really suffer for his crimes; losing finger tips on one hand isn't any where close to the appropriate punishment for a career Criminal such as Davos in westeroes; he doesn't lose most of the functions of the hand. Not to say we should cut pieces off of people for smuggling but the punishment Davos got is basicly a slap on the wrist.

43 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Where did you get patchface having greyscale? 

I said he would bring out a plague; didn't say he was a carrier of the the diese. I feel he would make Shireen's greyscale contagious again out of duty to the drowned God/storm god(yes I believe they're one in the same, or at the behest of the entity known as the great other .It would go well with Melisandre having seen Patchface with skulls and getting an ominous feeling from the foo.

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On 5/9/2018 at 12:01 AM, Stormking902 said:

Lets say before the battle of Ice that is heavily theorized in this forum Mel is able to convince Shireens mother that the girl must be sacrificed to the lord of light to save Stannis and she will be granted a boy after the war for her great commitment and blah blah, Stannis wins a huge victory and takes back WF and he allows Mel to stay in his service and doesn't punish his wife for giving Shireen up to be sacrificed. 

Although Stannis himself didn't give the order he still allows the people who commited the crime to face no punishment which since Stannis is so big on laws means they commited no crime at all. 

What does Ser Davos do next? 

This sounds a lot like the Trojan war where seer Calchas(Melissandre) convinces Agamemnon(Stannis or Selyse) to sacrifice their daughter in order to get favorable winds and win the war.

Now whether is Stannis able to do that or not(sense of duty and all), I believe it would be the last straw for Davos and he'd surely act against the King, probably leading to his death.

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It is going to be Stannis, but hopefully in scenario that makes sense.

Spoiler

George has been asked about the scene in the thing I don't mention here, and he has answered he hasn't written that scene yet, making it pretty clear that this is going to happen.

Now, Melisandre, Val, etc. burning Shireen would have pretty much no potential for human drama, considering that they aren't the parents of the child.

Selyse's one redeeming quality in the books is that she is actually a loving parent to Shireen - the only loving parent the girl has, Stannis never interacts with - making it very unlikely Selyse would choose Melisandre and her god over her only child.

Stannis is a completely different animal, though.

 

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Aside from the quote that I gave in the first page about Stannis/sacrifice and Mel's own take on the whole thing, Melisandre believes that Stannis is Azor Ahai and Stannis believes the same now. We don't know how she sold this to him, but she did and he buys it. 

Azor Ahai sacrificed his wife. Yes, he did so to forge Lightbringer, but it comes down to him sacrificing the woman he loved for the greater good. 

Stannis doesn't have a hundred cows, he has just the one. Shireen is his daughter and she is his heir and if he was torn up about feeding Edric Storm to the flames, a boy he never paid attention to, never really cared about, then what is Shireen if not a true sacrifice? She is his flesh and blood.

He may even come to the conclusion on his own. 

As far as Selyse goes, she has fed her own family to the flames. She and Axell didn't care that Alester was her uncle and his brother, and they didn't care that Edric was a young boy and a Florent. They are fanatics. I don't know if Shireen's life being in danger will snap Selyse out of it. I have my doubts. 

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2 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Aside from the quote that I gave in the first page about Stannis/sacrifice and Mel's own take on the whole thing, Melisandre believes that Stannis is Azor Ahai and Stannis believes the same now. We don't know how she sold this to him, but she did and he buys it. 

Azor Ahai sacrificed his wife. Yes, he did so to forge Lightbringer, but it comes down to him sacrificing the woman he loved for the greater good. 

That is actually the reason why I think Stannis' last sacrifice - the one Melisandre is never going to see coming - will be Melisandre herself. She is the woman Stannis loves now, not his wife (whom he never even liked) nor his daughter he doesn't particularly care for. The end of the rope there isn't Shireen (it would be cruel and all, but it won't be Stannis' ultimate sacrifice) it is Melisandre herself.

But Mel isn't really the woman pushing for a child sacrifice unless she thinks it is absolutely necessary. We learned that she can be nice and kind to people in her POV - to people like Davos and his family she really has no reason to like. Thus I don't expect Mel suggesting to kill Shireen unless there is a really great danger to avoid.

2 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

As far as Selyse goes, she has fed her own family to the flames. She and Axell didn't care that Alester was her uncle and his brother, and they didn't care that Edric was a young boy and a Florent. They are fanatics. I don't know if Shireen's life being in danger will snap Selyse out of it. I have my doubts. 

An uncle isn't a daughter. Shireen is Selyse's only child and the only thing she did/produced in her marriage to Stannis that gave her existence meaning. For her her entire conversion to Mel's faith is, in part, triggered by her desire to save her marriage and be able to give Stannis sons. The idea that she can stand there and watch while her only child is murdered - or actively push for that to happen - isn't even remotely convincing to me.

Axell Florent is a thug but even he wouldn't be as stupid as to sacrifice his niece considering she, as a half-Florent, could be his road to true power. King Stannis doesn't like Axell Florent at all, but Queen Shireen would be completely dependent on 'the Hand of the Queen'.

While Stannis is believed to be dead Shireen should be perfectly safe from both Selyse and Ser Axell. How things go later on we can't really predict at this point, but it seems very clear to me that something like the sacrifice of Shireen - regardless who does it (most likely Stannis) - will only make sense for the people involved in it at a point in the story where doom seems to be inevitable. Like, when they are trying to prevent the fall of the Wall, desperately trying to work a spell to push the Others back, or something of that sort.

Even Melisandre has other means to accomplish her goals right now. She has her poisons and powders in her chest, and she has the powers of her shadowbinding spells at the Wall. The lines about her realizing that the shadows she might be able to birth there would be much more powerful than the ones she produced earlier is not likely something that was dropped by the author for no reason. One could even speculate that she is going to use the resurrected/soulless body of Jon Snow as a sperm donor to produce such a shadow.

New shadows might come forth from her womb, shadows who might be able to do more than just slay one person. Perhaps they will be stable enough to hang around for some time, etc. We don't know.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is going to be Stannis, but hopefully in scenario that makes sense.

  Reveal hidden contents

George has been asked about the scene in the thing I don't mention here, and he has answered he hasn't written that scene yet, making it pretty clear that this is going to happen.

Now, Melisandre, Val, etc. burning Shireen would have pretty much no potential for human drama, considering that they aren't the parents of the child.

Selyse's one redeeming quality in the books is that she is actually a loving parent to Shireen - the only loving parent the girl has, Stannis never interacts with - making it very unlikely Selyse would choose Melisandre and her god over her only child.

Stannis is a completely different animal, though.

 

I do not doubt you heard what you heard or read what you read. I am questioning the source of what you read or heard.

I’m guessing the reveal tag information implies Stannis returns to the Wall. Or Mel, Selyse, Shirleen and the retinue/entourage leave CB to seek out Stannis.

Anything is possible. Maybe the Banker and his entourage arrive back CB with him saying, “Dead, no Stannis was alive when I left him.”  Massey says, “Dead you say. Shirleen, come here girl, your father said I was to see to it that you sit the throne.”

It would be interesting if someone could dig up martin voicing his opinion --- did he say I intend Shirleen to die or did he say I intend Shirleen be burned (at Stannis’ comand)?

Curious, I am.   It seems to be a bit wonky considering LC Snow’s state of limbo.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Then Stannis would have take his own head lest he be a hypocrite. He did not inform Robert. And his reasons for wanting Varys done away seems more due to him having an uncomfortable feeling about them, especially given his past alliegewnce as the Targyen's spymaster.

Either way executing Varys on such  a flimsy bais is not an action of a just man.

Again, not a court of law reviewed by legal scholars 

31 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Joffery is a 11 year old boy who by showings doesnt actually believe he is not the son of Robert Baratheon. He's a child. He's guilty of many things, but Stannis stands to condemn him and his siblings along to suffer for having been born from a unnatural Union.

He is still a bastard and a usurper. that is all that matters 

36 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I know most would pay any price if they could  for some good onions and fish. I suspect most lords' gratitude for the smuggler who sold them food when they were desperate and near death would be limited;after all it wasn't an act of altruism. It was for pure unadulterated profit.  It is not pure mercy; but it is not true justice either. The just thing for Stannis have done after paying Davos for the food he brought, is nothing really. The finger tips are such a small price to pay for the life Stannis granted Davos; many men of Davos's  would take it and view it as a blessing. Davos simply got far more than what honestly deserved-Davos already had his reward; the coin he got from selling the fish and onions. And he didn't really suffer for his crimes; losing finger tips on one hand isn't any where close to the appropriate punishment for a career Criminal such as Davos in westeroes; he doesn't lose most of the functions of the hand. Not to say we should cut pieces off of people for smuggling but the punishment Davos got is basicly a slap on the wrist.

You are overthinking a story with your own sense of morality. The morality of Stannis is literally spelled out. That is what is important here 

42 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I said he would bring out a plague; didn't say he was a carrier of the the diese. I feel he would make Shireen's greyscale contagious again out of duty to the drowned God/storm god(yes I believe they're one in the same, or at the behest of the entity known as the great other .It would go well with Melisandre having seen Patchface with skulls and getting an ominous feeling from the foo.

when someone brings a disease, it means they are the carrier, and that is what you wrote 

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