NBA Finals 2018: Do Or Die For The Cleveland LeBrons

[sperry]

Just now, dmc515 said:

Wade and Bosh wasn't fantastic for James to jump into?  Allen and Pierce wasn't fantastic for Garnett to jump into?  The whole difference is that the Warriors were ready made while those situations were put together within an offseason.  Maybe it's just me, but I don't see that as much of a distinction.  There was that same exact perception when LeBron made The Decision, and it dissipated.  I expect it will for Durant with time as well.

 

There's just a big difference between leaving a bad situation to join a good situation and make it great, and leaving a good situation to push a great team into laughably uncompetitive territory.

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, briantw said:

They might have been good situations, sure, but it's not like either LeBron, Bosh, or even Garnett (which is kind of silly since he was traded) were going to places where they were basically guaranteed a title.

James (and Wade and Bosh) certainly acted like they were basically guaranteed a title immediately upon signing.  And while the Celtics situation is certainly a somewhat different because it was a trade(s), Garnett - and to a lesser extent Allen - engineered where he being traded to.

8 minutes ago, sperry said:

There's just a big difference between leaving a bad situation to join a good situation and make it great, and leaving a good situation to push a great team into laughably uncompetitive territory.

So...Durant is worse because he was able to enter into a most successful situation?  Again, while the Celtics situation is different, most everybody thought at the time the Heat were constructed as laughably uncompetitive as well.  There's also context to consider - LeBron could have went somewhere else - even if he was frustrated with the Cavs - and considerably improved his chances without combining with the two other best free agents that offseason.  But he chose the best bet at success, just as Durant did.

[sperry]

2 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

James (and Wade and Bosh) certainly acted like they were basically guaranteed a title immediately upon signing.  And while the Celtics situation is certainly a somewhat different because it was a trade(s), Garnett - and to a lesser extent Allen - engineered where he being traded to.

So...Durant is worse because he was able to enter into a most successful situation?  Again, while the Celtics situation is different, most everybody thought at the time the Heat were constructed as laughably uncompetitive as well.  There's also context to consider - LeBron could have went somewhere else - even if he was frustrated with the Cavs - and considerably improved his chances without combining with the two other best free agents that offseason.  But he chose the best bet at success, just as Durant did.

 

You are cherry picking certain aspects that were similar, while not acknowledging the whole. LeBron did not join an established dominant team. He did not join a group of players that would have won 73 games the year prior had it existed. LeBron did not come from an already really good situation. These things are critically important in why fans feel the way they do about KD.

 

As for how KD is remembered, that is probably up to him. I think he needs to go somewhere else and win a title or two to change the narrative about his career. Whether or not he should care about that is obviously a personal thing, but it is crystal clear that he does care, which is kind of why he's in the mess in the first place.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, sperry said:

You are cherry picking certain aspects that were similar, while not acknowledging the whole. LeBron did not join an established dominant team. He did not join a group of players that would have won 73 games the year prior had it existed. LeBron did not come from an already really good situation. These things are critically important in why fans feel the way they do about KD.

I'm not denying the the Warriors were a better ready made team.  I'm saying LeBron maximized his potential for success the same way Durant did considering the respective contexts of how they joined.

3 minutes ago, sperry said:

As for how KD is remembered, that is probably up to him. I think he needs to go somewhere else and win a title or two to change the narrative about his career.

This is probably true - it be analogous to if LeBron never returned to Cleveland and won a title there.  But you guys seems to be drastically misremembering how hated LeBron was following The Decision.  It was decidedly (heh) worse than Durant.

[briantw]

13 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

James (and Wade and Bosh) certainly acted like they were basically guaranteed a title immediately upon signing. 

And were killed by fans of basically every other team for it.  They also got a little karmic justice when they failed to win in year one, something Durant didn't have to endure because he joined a much, much, much, much, much, much, much more stacked team.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, briantw said:

a much, much, much, much, much, much, much more stacked team.

Role players aside, I don't think Curry/Thompson/Green > Wade/Bosh is worth that many much's.

[sperry]

3 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

I'm not denying the the Warriors were a better ready made team.  I'm saying LeBron maximized his potential for success the same way Durant did considering the respective contexts of how they joined.

This is probably true - it be analogous to if LeBron never returned to Cleveland and won a title there.  But you guys seems to be drastically misremembering how hated LeBron was following The Decision.  It was decidedly (heh) worse than Durant.

 

I felt like LeBron mostly caught shit for the presentation. The ridiculous "The Decision" followed up by the not 1, not 2, etc. thing.

 

There were definitely very vocal critics of them joining up, but I also felt like there were plenty of people defending the decision to go to Miami. And obviously it helped out that them teaming up didn't destroy the league's competitive balance, and we got 4 straight extremely compelling finals. LeBron actually faced resistance on his way to winning those titles in Miami. Golden State went 32-6 to win these ones.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, sperry said:

I felt like LeBron mostly caught shit for the presentation.

The presentation didn't help, but he was the most hated athlete for a few years there - I'm pretty sure empirically but I can't find any links quickly other than Forbes and fuck that site.  Plus, speaking of hated, my Yanks are about to start playing. 

[briantw]

2 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

The presentation didn't help, but he was the most hated athlete for a few years there - I'm pretty sure empirically but I can't find any links quickly other than Forbes and fuck that site.  Plus, speaking of hated, my Yanks are about to start playing. 

Yeah, he absolutely was the most hated for a couple of years.  But I do think that was largely due to the arrogance of The Decision and their NOT 1 NOT 2 NOT 3 idiocy.  

[sperry]

18 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Role players aside, I don't think Curry/Thompson/Green > Wade/Bosh is worth that many much's.

Again, this team is so good that Andre Iguodala, an all-star and finals MVP, became a role player.

[DMC]

26 minutes ago, sperry said:

Again, this team is so good that Andre Iguodala, an all-star and finals MVP, became a role player.

Calling Iggy an all-star during his 5 year tenure with GS (and his three years prior) is a gross exaggeration.

[sperry]

Just now, dmc515 said:

Calling Iggy an all-star during his 5 year tenure with GS (and his three years prior) is a gross exaggeration.

He was first team all defense in 2014, and the finals MVP in 2015. He was still a phenomenal player, he just didn't need to score points. This was the first year that he started to look a little washed.

[DMC]

And Patrick Beverley was last year.  Doesn't make you an all star.

[baxus]

 

12 hours ago, briantw said:

Apparently he thinks so, because he's constantly trying to do so and created a bunch of burner accounts to defend himself on social media.  He knows that what he did was an all-time weak move and that basically no one outside of the Bay respects him for it.  If he didn't know that, he wouldn't spend so much time trying to justify himself to everyone.

Yeah, and his constantly trying to do so has absolutely nothing to do with everyone being on his case all the time for basically doing what makes perfect sense.

I know I'd left companies when I thought projects I was working on were dead end. Why would I hold it against Durant that he did the same? How could I?

12 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

Carried OKC? Westbrook is not exactly chopped liver. Durant was not a one man band there.

Westbrook is a walking stat, not a great player. He can have his two triple-double average seasons, but his team got knocked out in the first round by Utah. Priorities.

[DMC]

This whole conversation has the stench of Bitter Beer Face (Keystone Light^TM).  As a Magic fan, I understand, but walking away from Westbrook was actually a pretty damn apt decision.  Garnett though he had something with Marbury.  The entire Rockets thought they had something with Francis.  Then there was Rose and the Bulls.  Relying on score-first points has never worked - maybe it would've worked with Shaq and Penny, but that would have first been after Jordan retired and second assuming Penny never blew out his knee.  At which point he probably would've been playing 2 anyway.  So, yeah, I don't fault Durant for thinking that never was gonna work.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

How about we just agree that Durant and LeBron both had their reasons to leave their teams for better chances, but that it reflected poorly on both regardless of those reasons?

At this point, I am not particularly interested in where LeBron goes. It's too up in the air at this point. I am more interested in what his departure from the Cavs means for everyone else, including fans of either the Cavs or LeBron. LeBron-first fans will follow and support him wherever. Here I have superstar fans in mind rather than team fans, those less loyal to teams and more to individual superstars.

But what does this mean for the Cavs and their fans? If the Cavs are a horrible team made sufficiently great to be carried to the Finals on LeBron's back, then his departure would basically be a (second) death knell for the franchise and most of the players on that roster. Who could you possibly trade or attract to Cleveland after LeBron leaves?

[Red Tiger]

1 hour ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

How about we just agree that Durant and LeBron both had their reasons to leave their teams for better chances, but that it reflected poorly on both regardless of those reasons?

At this point, I am not particularly interested in where LeBron goes. It's too up in the air at this point. I am more interested in what his departure from the Cavs means for everyone else, including fans of either the Cavs or LeBron. LeBron-first fans will follow and support him wherever. Here I have superstar fans in mind rather than team fans, those less loyal to teams and more to individual superstars.

But what does this mean for the Cavs and their fans? If the Cavs are a horrible team made sufficiently great to be carried to the Finals on LeBron's back, then his departure would basically be a (second) death knell for the franchise and most of the players on that roster. Who could you possibly trade or attract to Cleveland after LeBron leaves?

Nobody.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

How about we just agree that Durant and LeBron both had their reasons to leave their teams for better chances, but that it reflected poorly on both regardless of those reasons?

....I.....Agree.  Damn.  That was tough.

1 hour ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

Here I have superstar fans in mind rather than team fans, those less loyal to teams and more to individual superstars.

There are superstar fans rather than team fans?  Yeah I really don't care about those people.

1 hour ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

But what does this mean for the Cavs and their fans?

Don't really care.  They can go back to rooting for the Indians or Brow...oooh yeah.  Sorry guys.

[Rhom]

28 minutes ago, DMBouazizi said:

There are superstar fans rather than team fans?  Yeah I really don't care about those people.

Of course there are.  How many Bulls fans do you know today?  Yet they were everywhere when MJ played.  Those were Jordan fans, not Bulls fans.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Rhom said:

Of course there are.  How many Bulls fans do you know today?  Yet they were everywhere when MJ played.  Those were Jordan fans, not Bulls fans.

Yeah, I know.  They keep Buffalo Wild Wings in business.  On the Bulls thing though, have to admit I was one of those guys when I was about 7 years old.