The execution of Janos Slynt was spot on

[Tagganaro]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is in the text, but it is a lie, and Mormont knows it. Jon didn't go for a midnight ride to Mole's Town. He never intended to come back when he left. That is desertion, Jon knew it, you know it, I know it, and Mormont knew it. And Jon did not come back because he wanted to come back. He came back because he did not want that his friends die with him. He planned to make another attempt even while they were riding back - and even after he was back at the Wall.

Mormont didn't send Jon's friends after him. Hadn't they gone, he wouldn't have come back. Mormont even admits that when he says that it wasn't his honor who brought him back.

It is all special treatment for the Bastard of Winterfell. Any other black brother would have lost his head. The Lord Commander usually doesn't spend time to ponder the heart of the likes of Rast and Chett and Green and Pyp and Dareon, no?

It's not a lie, and the text makes very clear that this argument is silly.  Mormont says as much.  He says Aemon knew Jon would leave, and Mormont knew Jon would come back.  Mormont explicitly says he expected Jon to behave exactly the way he did and that he saw him leaving.  

And then Mormont explicitly explains why Jon is getting what you would call "special treatment."  Because of his Stark blood and maybe mainly because of Ghost.  There is no argument here. 

[Lord Varys]

33 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

It's not a lie, and the text makes very clear that this argument is silly.  Mormont says as much.  He says Aemon knew Jon would leave, and Mormont knew Jon would come back.  Mormont explicitly says he expected Jon to behave exactly the way he did and that he saw him leaving.

But he didn't come back because he believed in coming back. And it is not just that he gets special treatment when hundreds or thousands of other deserters may have also changed their minds if the authorities had actually pretended they did not desert in the first place.

[White Ravens]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is in the text, but it is a lie, and Mormont knows it. Jon didn't go for a midnight ride to Mole's Town. He never intended to come back when he left. That is desertion, Jon knew it, you know it, I know it, and Mormont knew it. And Jon did not come back because he wanted to come back. He came back because he did not want that his friends die with him. He planned to make another attempt even while they were riding back - and even after he was back at the Wall.

Mormont didn't send Jon's friends after him. Hadn't they gone, he wouldn't have come back. Mormont even admits that when he says that it wasn't his honor who brought him back.

It is all special treatment for the Bastard of Winterfell. Any other black brother would have lost his head. The Lord Commander usually doesn't spend time to ponder the heart of the likes of Rast and Chett and Green and Pyp and Dareon, no?

When I read this scene I thought that GRRM  was trying to portray that these kinds of events are fairly common on the wall.  Jon wasn't the first nobleman to serve on the wall and he wasn't the first to be tempted by old family and political conditions to flee south to help his friends and family.  I remember feeling a bit charmed by the whole thing when I first read it.  The Watch has clear policies and the right to inflict harsh penalties on those who flaunt them, but thankfully there are often compassionate men like Jeor Mormont running the show up there.  He was able to recognize that, although the rules were broken, Jon had already made friends who were willing to risk their own safety to chase after him when he fled the wall and that they were able to talk some sense into him and bring him home by  daylight.  When I read that scene I got the sense that this was something that Mormont had already witnessed countless times before and was more than willing to forgive the violation of policy because no harm came of it. 

[the Greenleif Stark]

so throughout the entire history of The Watch you don't think there was another similar situation, where a Lord's 14yo son VOLUNTEERS to join The Watch but gets the urge to run away at night, ultimately coming back by morning, and not being excuted for desertion?..........basically, everything White Ravens said above, he just beat me to it  

[Three-Fingered Pete]

44 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

...And then Mormont explicitly explains why Jon is getting what you would call "special treatment."  Because of his Stark blood and maybe mainly because of Ghost.  There is no argument here. 

 

I think Sam also had the right of it in this instance. Mormont had already seen something in Jon and knew from commanding Benjen that Starks could be counted on... once you gained their loyalty. He was intending to groom Jon for command right from the start, probably because he considered Benjen lost, who was more than likely his first choice to replace him. Thorne is sharp (no pun intended) and probably picked up on this. It added more fuel to the fire for hating Jon to all the reasons stated in this discussion.

As far as Janos? I won't miss his conniving, and baseness, but it might have been better for Jon to allow Janos to weasel out of it at that time and allow him to take up the offered command, only to play out more rope to hang him. Put a loyal spy in his ranks and wait for open defiance/rebellion rather than insubordination. Janos wouldn't have spent a week away before he started plotting.

[White Ravens]

6 minutes ago, the Greenleif Stark said:

so throughout the entire history of The Watch you don't think there was another similar situation, where a Lord's 14yo son VOLUNTEERS to join The Watch but gets the urge to run away at night, ultimately coming back by morning, and not being excuted for desertion?..........basically, everything White Ravens said above, he just beat me to it  

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

When I read this scene I thought that GRRM  was trying to portray that these kinds of events are fairly common on the wall.  Jon wasn't the first nobleman to serve on the wall and he wasn't the first to be tempted by old family and political conditions to flee south to help his friends and family.  I remember feeling a bit charmed by the whole thing when I first read it.  The Watch has clear policies and the right to inflict harsh penalties on those who flaunt them, but thankfully there are often compassionate men like Jeor Mormont running the show up there.  He was able to recognize that, although the rules were broken, Jon had already made friends who were willing to risk their own safety to chase after him when he fled the wall and that they were able to talk some sense into him and bring him home by  daylight.  When I read that scene I got the sense that this was something that Mormont had already witnessed countless times before and was more than willing to forgive the violation of policy because no harm came of it. 

But the impression is not that this kind of thing happens often. Do you think Aemon would have been allowed to keep his head had he gone down south to help his 'poor' grandnephew, Aerys II?

There are not many wars in Westeros these days, and even fewer noblemen taking the black of their own free will. The kind of dilemma Jon finds himself in should be increasingly rare. And Mormont himself wasn't exactly all that long in the Watch, nor Lord Commander.

That doesn't mean men would not like to leave the Wall for baser reasons - seeing a parent for the last time before their death, attending the wedding of a family member, hanging out with a friend, rekindling an affair with a lover, etc. - but this whole 'take a side' dilemma is most definitely not the rule.

If Jon had come back of his own free will, without his friends intervening, I could respect that. And I think he should get a second chance in that sense. It would be still very merciful on Mormont's part, but it could be justified. But it is not what happened. And we should not pretend it did happen.

[White Ravens]

2 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

 

I think Sam also had the right of it in this instance. Mormont had already seen something in Jon and knew from commanding Benjen that Starks could be counted on... once you gained their loyalty. He was intending to groom Jon for command right from the start, probably because he considered Benjen lost, who was more than likely his first choice to replace him. Thorne is sharp (no pun intended) and probably picked up on this. It added more fuel to the fire for hating Jon to all the reasons stated in this discussion.

As far as Janos? I won't miss his conniving, and baseness, but it might have been better for Jon to allow Janos to weasel out of it at that time and allow him to take up the offered command, only to play out more rope to hang him. Put a loyal spy in his ranks and wait for open defiance/rebellion rather than insubordination. Janos wouldn't have spent a week away before he started plotting.

The part I bolded above is why Jon picked execution, I think.  There is so much at stake with the Others coming and the need to build a strong defense of the Wall.  He doesn't have time to give Janos enough rope to hang himself again.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

2 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

The part I bolded above is why Jon picked execution, I think.  There is so much at stake with the Others coming and the need to build a strong defense of the Wall.  He doesn't have time to give Janos enough rope to hang himself again.

 

And that is the problem. Jon doesn't have the full loyalty of the NW yet. His actions seem selfish and vengeful. Only Stannis seemed to approve. The Watch seemed to accept it, but IIRC many were stunned at the decision.

[Dorian Martell's son]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But the impression is not that this kind of thing happens often. Do you think Aemon would have been allowed to keep his head had he gone down south to help his 'poor' grandnephew, Aerys II?

If he never got more than a day or two away from the wall before coming back? Of course he would be let back in. 

[Unacosamedarisa]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Do you think Aemon would have been allowed to keep his head had he gone down south to help his 'poor' grandnephew, Aerys II?

If he had gone all the way South, no. Probably not. 

If he had gone a few hours ride South, and then came back to the Wall, yes. 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

If he had gone all the way South, no. Probably not. 

If he had gone a few hours ride South, and then came back to the Wall, yes. 

LOL, now I see Aemon on a donkey trying to go to help his nephew Aerys, while Lord Commander Qorgyle comes trailing after him, 'Please, Maester Aemon, I'm your friend, you have said a vow, you have to keep it, come back to us, we need you', etc.

No. The man has broken his vow and he has to answer for that. People who actually have a brain know what it means to take the black in this world. Neither Aemon nor Jon were forced to take the black. If they cannot suffer it to sit on their asses while their kin are butchered, they shouldn't have taken the black.

[Unacosamedarisa]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No. The man has broken his vow and he has to answer for that.

Quote

"If we beheaded every boy who rode to Mole's Town in the night, only ghosts would guard the Wall."

So it's a good job you're not in charge of the Wall then. Jon wavered, but ultimately decided to remain part of the Watch. He didn't desert in the eyes of the Watch's ultimate authority. I'll quote that for you again...

Quote

"You have not deserted—yet. Here you stand." 

This is Mormont speaking to Jon, incase you missed that. The "You" in this quote is Jon. "have not" means that he hasn't done something. "deserted" is the thing he hasn't done. So, what Mormont is saying is that Jon hasn't deserted.  

[The Fattest Leech]

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, now I see Aemon on a donkey trying to go to help his nephew Aerys, while Lord Commander Qorgyle comes trailing after him, 'Please, Maester Aemon, I'm your friend, you have said a vow, you have to keep it, come back to us, we need you', etc.

No. The man has broken his vow and he has to answer for that. People who actually have a brain know what it means to take the black in this world. Neither Aemon nor Jon were forced to take the black. If they cannot suffer it to sit on their asses while their kin are butchered, they shouldn't have taken the black.

That makes up the entire underpinning of the series— or most anything GRRM writes. Matters of the heart. These characters aren’t robots that just keep their heads down and follow orders likes drones. No. Instead they struggle with matters of the heart. 

*so when GRRM writes a flat, one note character like Slynt, you know he’s no good. 

And it’s no coincidence that first Jeor Mormont and then Jon are the ones in the book to exclaim how the Night’s Watch has lost its way and they have forgotten its true purpose. There is a lot in the story that is being remembered on page which shows that the stereotypes and assumptions from earlier on (AGOT, etc) are not what the readers think. 

[Rufus Snow]

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But the impression is not that this kind of thing happens often. Do you think Aemon would have been allowed to keep his head had he gone down south to help his 'poor' grandnephew, Aerys II?

There are not many wars in Westeros these days, and even fewer noblemen taking the black of their own free will. The kind of dilemma Jon finds himself in should be increasingly rare. And Mormont himself wasn't exactly all that long in the Watch, nor Lord Commander.

That doesn't mean men would not like to leave the Wall for baser reasons - seeing a parent for the last time before their death, attending the wedding of a family member, hanging out with a friend, rekindling an affair with a lover, etc. - but this whole 'take a side' dilemma is most definitely not the rule.

If Jon had come back of his own free will, without his friends intervening, I could respect that. And I think he should get a second chance in that sense. It would be still very merciful on Mormont's part, but it could be justified. But it is not what happened. And we should not pretend it did happen.

What may or may not have happened to Aemon in Aerys' day is not important. Not any more. Not now. Because now WINTER IS COMING.

Mormont gets it. The Halfhand gets it. And Jon Snow gets it, once Mormont rubs his nose in it a bit:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

"Do you think your brother's war is more important than ours?" the old man barked.

Jon chewed his lip. The raven flapped its wings at him. "War, war, war, war," it sang.

"It's not," Mormont told him. "Gods save us, boy, you're not blind and you're not stupid. When dead men come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?"

Mormont wouldn't lop off Jon's head if he had to drag him back from Winterfell, because he knows that in the Wars to Come, Jon Snow is the most important asset the Watch possesses.:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

"All I know is that the blood of the First Men flows in the veins of the Starks. The First Men built the Wall, and it's said they remember things otherwise forgotten. And that beast of yours … he led us to the wights, warned you of the dead man on the steps. Ser Jaremy would doubtless call that happenstance, yet Ser Jaremy is dead and I'm not." Lord Mormont stabbed a chunk of ham with the point of his dagger. "I think you were meant to be here, and I want you and that wolf of yours with us when we go beyond the Wall."

His words sent a chill of excitement down Jon's back. "Beyond the Wall?"

"You heard me. I mean to find Ben Stark, alive or dead." He chewed and swallowed. "I will not sit here meekly and wait for the snows and the ice winds. We must know what is happening. This time the Night's Watch will ride in force, against the King-beyond-the-Wall, the Others, and anything else that may be out there. I mean to command them myself." He pointed his dagger at Jon's chest. "By custom, the Lord Commander's steward is his squire as well … but I do not care to wake every dawn wondering if you've run off again. So I will have an answer from you, Lord Snow, and I will have it now. Are you a brother of the Night's Watch … or only a bastard boy who wants to play at war?"

Qhorin knew 'the words' had to serve the war, they are not an end in themselves. I feel you are taking too legalistic a viewpoint - putting the laws above their purpose. Quibbling over the dotted i's and crossed t's of whether Jon was more or less transgressive than Aemon might have been or Mance or whoever misses the point. The point is: WINTER IS COMING, and so far only Mormont, Jon and Qhorin seem to have understood that yet. Stannis, too, but he's outside the Watch...

Jon is an asset in the Wars to Come. Slynt is not - he's a hindrance - and that war is the circumstance in which all this must be weighed. Jon OBEYED the Halfhand's COMMAND to spy on the free folk, as a loyal soldier. Slynt and Thorne tried to execute Jon for that, calling it oathbreaking. Jon said his words over again with the Halfhand, but words are wind - even the NW words - but Jon remembered his name, he's of the Blood of the First Men, and they remember what it means when winter comes. He kept the truth in his heart that he was a Brother of the Night's Watch.

There is a whole paradigm change happening, and the likes of Slynt and Marsh and Thorne are trying to cling to the old paradigm. They can appeal to tradition all they like, but they are no more relevant now than who sits the Iron Throne...

[kissdbyfire]

Blind and strict adherence to a vow no matter what, no matter the cost is downright dumb and moronic, not to mention dangerous. Words are wind, after all, and it will be actions that will matter in the end. 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, White Ravens said:

The part I bolded above is why Jon picked execution, I think.  There is so much at stake with the Others coming and the need to build a strong defense of the Wall.  He doesn't have time to give Janos enough rope to hang himself again.

Agreed. When problems pile up, it won't do postponing solutions, because you would end up with the pile growing over your head. Jon needed to assert his authority, and adressing Slynt publically the second time was actually that rope, in fact.

[Clegane'sPup]

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, now I see Aemon on a donkey trying to go to help his nephew Aerys, while Lord Commander Qorgyle comes trailing after him, 'Please, Maester Aemon, I'm your friend, you have said a vow, you have to keep it, come back to us, we need you', etc.

You caught me totally off guard. You do have a sense of humor hiding in there somewhere.

[TheMiddleHero]

Honestly if we want to compare Jon's desertion with Slynts mutinous behavior, let's look at how each handled it when confronted with it.

 

Jon: Rode out, was  coaxed back by friends, expected to be beheaded. Was given a second chance and he fell in line.

 

Janos: Refused an order, was given a second chance, refused it again, insulted the LC, was asked a third time and continued to refuse and insult the LC.

 

Seems clear to me why each had a different result.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, White Ravens said:

He doesn't have time to give Janos enough rope to hang himself again.

I agree.

I had this long winded post ready to go but I had to sack it because @Lord Varysmade me laugh.

If you don't mind I would like to play off your post.

The man/boy passed the sentence and he swung the sword.

In a different thread @The Fattest Leech brought in an interesting quote as it applied to that thread.  Thanks for that Leech.  To my way of thinking the quote sheds some light on why LC SNow passed the sentence and swung the sword.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI      The northmen glanced at one another. "Hostages," mused The Norrey. "Tormund has agreed to this?"       It was that, or watch his people die. "My blood price, he called it," said Jon Snow, "but he will pay."       "Aye, and why not?" Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. "Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it."      "None but them whose sires displeased the Kings o' Winter," said The Norrey. "Those came home shorter by a head. So you tell me, boy … if these wildling friends o' yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs be done?"      Ask Janos Slynt. "Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark."/

I am fairly sure the line "I am still a son of Eddard Stark" will be twisted in some manner. What I am suggesting is that story wise Slynt had to die. LC Snow, following Eddard's example, passed the sentence and LC Snow swung the sword.

Thanks.