Jump to content
Lady Rhodes

The Regret of Killing Characters

Recommended Posts

Re-visiting and re-reading this thread for the last thirty minutes has me believing that it's an old person and/or person with a lot of knowledge and experience.

Aemon, Old Nan, Pycelle, Barristan, the Widow on the Waterfront, the Tattered Prince

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/28/2018 at 2:55 PM, bent branch said:

I have wondered if it is Pycelle. If Aegon is fake, then there would need to be a way to prove that he is fake (it is not GRRM's style to leave such a huge question ambiguous). Although, with what we have been told, Pycelle would not have had the knowledge to know if the baby brought from Dragonstone was actually Aegon, this deficiency could be easily remedied. As it is, the only two other people who would be in a position to know (Illyrio and Varys) would have no reason to reveal that. On the other hand, there are people who could potentially reveal Aegon is genuine.

I feel like it could be this one. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It must be someone, who GRRM killed, because he had no further use for the plot, and GRRM thought he won't need him further.

Tywin: His death was neccesary for the plot, so we can rule this out. His death was planed years ago. 

Oberyn: see Tywin

Aemon: Besides exposition, I don't see a further usage of him. Maybe he knows about Jons true origins? 

Mance: not officially dead in any book yet, only claimed dead in the pink letter. If GRRM would need him so desparately, he would just "undo" his death in TWOW.

Benjen: see Mance

Quentin: GRRM introduced him in persona in his last installment. Before that, he had no role to play. His death is a tool to ensure that there will be no alliance between Dany and Dorne, thus leading to an aliance between Dorne and Aegon. I don't see how GRRM would need him, that couldn't be done by someone else. 

Pycelle: This one is rather tricky. He has worked for several years as a Maester in KL and was allways a member of the great council. He has a lot of informations regarding everything that happend between the reign of Aerys II and Tommen. He may be able to unmask the new "Aegon". Maybe he knows that the dead child was indeed Aegon, because he was somehow able to identify his dead boddy (a mark on his boddy or smth.). Or maybe he even knows that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and can prove it somehow. How? I have no fucking clue. And since he is dead, we will never know.

All the other deaths (Ned, Robb etc.) are crucial to the story, and planed for decades now, so it won't be them.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It just occurred to me that it cannot be Pycelle. Think about it. He was killed at the end of ADWD. If GRRM really needs his voice to tell us something of import, he can simply write a chapter before his death, let's say mimicking Kevan's Epilogue. As TWOW and ADWD will have some timeline overlap. It wouldn't be a problem. He did that with Sam I AFFC and Jon I ADWD.

It must be someone else...

Edited by rotting sea cow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has to be Pycelle. The guy just knew a lot about Aerys and the Lannisters. 

As for overlapping time lines, that only works with plot threads that are separated by a sufficiently long distance. You can't have a chapter with Pycelle in it in the same place after his death.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Loge said:

Has to be Pycelle. The guy just knew a lot about Aerys and the Lannisters. 

I was too quite convinced about it. He knew things from Aegon V to Tommen's regency. It's a lot and even details about who actually needed the Moon Tea, are not easy to reveal in other ways.

1 hour ago, Loge said:

As for overlapping time lines, that only works with plot threads that are separated by a sufficiently long distance. You can't have a chapter with Pycelle in it in the same place after his death.

Thing is, TWOW won't start where we are left in ADWD. They are other timelines to catch: Davos, Bran, Sam and Sansa come to my mind. E.g. We haven't seen Davos since the White Harbor meeting and yet Manderly went to Barrowtown at "snail pace" and to Winterfell then and stayed there for a long time. Alyane I should be among the first chapters.

So, a considerable overlap is a given, imho, and if GRRM considers necessary Pycelle's voice, he can write a chapter before his death. I'd actually love that hypothetical chapter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I was too quite convinced about it. He knew things from Aegon V to Tommen's regency. It's a lot and even details about who actually needed the Moon Tea, are not easy to reveal in other ways.

Thing is, TWOW won't start where we are left in ADWD. They are other timelines to catch: Davos, Bran, Sam and Sansa come to my mind. E.g. We haven't seen Davos since the White Harbor meeting and yet Manderly went to Barrowtown at "snail pace" and to Winterfell then and stayed there for a long time. Alyane I should be among the first chapters.

So, a considerable overlap is a given, imho, and if GRRM considers necessary Pycelle's voice, he can write a chapter before his death. I'd actually love that hypothetical chapter.

As far as King's Landing is concerned, TWOW will start where we were left in ADWD. Those other story arcs happen far away and don't interact with King's Landing, so stuff we see there could happen before Pycelle died. But Pycelle can't be in them and whatever happens in KL is after his death.

Edited by Loge

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Loge said:

As far as King's Landing is concerned, TWOW will start where we were left in ADWD. Those other story arcs happen far away and don't interact with King's Landing, so stuff we see there could happen before Pycelle died. But Pycelle can't be in them and whatever happens in KL is after his death.

You are misunderstanding the point. The purpose of the thread is discussing which character GRRM regrets killing. There are many possibilities, but if it was Pycelle (something I also supported), there is an obvious way out: Write a Pycelle PoV chapter during the time overlap between ADWD and TWOW.

This cannot be done with other characters like Tywin, Oberyn, Aemon, etc because the chapter in question would look completely out of context.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

You are misunderstanding the point. The purpose of the thread is discussing which character GRRM regrets killing. There are many possibilities, but if it was Pycelle (something I also supported), there is an obvious way out: Write a Pycelle PoV chapter during the time overlap between ADWD and TWOW.

This cannot be done with other characters like Tywin, Oberyn, Aemon, etc because the chapter in question would look completely out of context.

That's right. The chapter could end with Pycelle either writing or acknowledging some secret documents he wrote about things nobody else alive would know, followed by him feeling a hard blow to the back of his head. End chapter. So yeah, I don't think it's Pycelle George regrets killing.

Edited by AlienCarnivore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, AlienCarnivore said:

That's right. The chapter could end with Pycelle either writing or acknowledging some secret documents he wrote about things nobody else alive would know, followed by him feeling a hard blow to the back of his head. End chapter. So yeah, I don't think it's Pycelle George regrets killing.

Indeed. Pycelle was examining some book when Varys killed him

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

You are misunderstanding the point. The purpose of the thread is discussing which character GRRM regrets killing. There are many possibilities, but if it was Pycelle (something I also supported), there is an obvious way out: Write a Pycelle PoV chapter during the time overlap between ADWD and TWOW.

This cannot be done with other characters like Tywin, Oberyn, Aemon, etc because the chapter in question would look completely out of context.

But GRRM wants to cut POVs not add them. One off POVs are not in keeping with the general style and structure of the book, where one off chapters are generally prologues or epilogues. Arys Oakheart is the exception (Mel could also break that rule, but as she is still  alive i dont count her single POV as breaking that yet). 

In response to other stuff said recently in the thread, i think it is all but confirmed that we will open with the battles of Ice and First which have been the focus of much of the sample chapters. And in Slaver’s Bay at least, it seems likely from the samples so far that we get a Blackwater approach, flitting between 3 POVs without a geographic break until the battle is done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

But GRRM wants to cut POVs not add them.

Yes, but there is nothing that forces him to do so. If an additional PoV solves some narrative problems instead of adding more, GRRM will certainly go for that.

7 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

One off POVs are not in keeping with the general style and structure of the book, where one off chapters are generally prologues or epilogues.

This is true, although I'd like to have more one off PoV.

7 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Arys Oakheart is the exception (Mel could also break that rule, but as she is still  alive i dont count her single POV as breaking that yet). 

I think Mel is confirmed to have more chapters in TWOW. In the end someone has to tell us what's going on at The Wall.

7 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

In response to other stuff said recently in the thread, i think it is all but confirmed that we will open with the battles of Ice and First which have been the focus of much of the sample chapters. And in Slaver’s Bay at least, it seems likely from the samples so far that we get a Blackwater approach, flitting between 3 POVs without a geographic break until the battle is done.

Yes, GRRM said that, but I don't think it's possible without breaking some continuity. As I pointed out there are a few PoV that need to catch up with the timeline, in particular Davos, Bran, Sam and Sansa. All of them should have chapters at the very beginning. Alyane I in particular should be among the first. Of course Davos I and Bran I could be further down and tell us thing in retrospective. Oldtown and the Citadel, on the other hand, still need worlbuilding before Euron shows up, so a few Sam chapters are guaranteed before that happen, so at least one should be at the beginning of TWOW.

It also makes narrative sense to have all battles being told together, not only the ice and fire, but also the one at the Redwyne's straits and outside Storm's End. So, Aeron and Arianne chapters should come before as well as Cersei I, telling us the results of her trial.

IMvHO, the battles won't start until chapter 10 or so, with a build-up from the previous chapters., so we will have a very intense first third of the book.

And in between, you still need to squeeze Jaime, Areo, Mel, Dany and Brienne. I tend to think that Jon I (Ghost) and Arya I (Mercy) are further inside the book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/6/2019 at 9:53 AM, rotting sea cow said:

You are misunderstanding the point. The purpose of the thread is discussing which character GRRM regrets killing. There are many possibilities, but if it was Pycelle (something I also supported), there is an obvious way out: Write a Pycelle PoV chapter during the time overlap between ADWD and TWOW.

This cannot be done with other characters like Tywin, Oberyn, Aemon, etc because the chapter in question would look completely out of context.

I agree.

But the only way this can happen (this being writing around Pycelle's death) without confusing the reader or making for a badly-written, disjointed read is that Pycelle would need to be featured/mentioned in the proglogue and/or Cersei I has to be the first chapter.

I agree with you on the other notes. Sam, Sansa, Bran and Davos need to be among the first ten chapters of Winds. Particularly Sansa and Sam. And Arya, to be honest, can't be too far behind.

It's a bit of a difficult mess really. Not only does he have to spend the first third of the book on two or three big battles simultaneously (a climax that should've part of the previous book), he has to advance the plot for the sake of this book's turning point and climax.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I agree.

But the only way this can happen (this being writing around Pycelle's death) without confusing the reader or making for a badly-written, disjointed read is that Pycelle would need to be featured/mentioned in the proglogue and/or Cersei I has to be the first chapter. 

The thing is TWOW will start before ADWD ends and the books are written in approximate chronological order. GRRM has warned about this in his other books.  For example Aeron I AFFC (The Prophet) should be located mid ASOS! Whilst the next chapter is after the death of Oberyn.

Similarly Cersei I cannot be the first chapter because it likely happens at the earliest immediately after Kevan's death and most likely after her trial, if indeed that happens.

22 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

 

I agree with you on the other notes. Sam, Sansa, Bran and Davos need to be among the first ten chapters of Winds. Particularly Sansa and Sam. And Arya, to be honest, can't be too far behind.

The thing with Arya is she has much less to do (for now) in comparison with other characters (e.g. Arianne or Dany) and if Mercy is an indication you need Harys Swift to get to Braavos first. Because of the tight timelines (weeks at the most) during the first 20-30 chapters, this cannot happen until the battles are done.

22 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

It's a bit of a difficult mess really. Not only does he have to spend the first third of the book on two or three big battles simultaneously (a climax that should've part of the previous book), he has to advance the plot for the sake of this book's turning point and climax. 

I see what you mean and I think this is part what keeps GRRM busy and essaying different approaches. Because the book should also have a consistent rhythm. After that very intense first thirds, how do you slowing down a bit to deal with the consequences of the battles. How do you mix intense chapters with relatively boring (but necessary) ones, without breaking the harmony. How do you deal with the tight timelines in Westeros and the necessary longer timelines in Essos? Etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How are events in Winterfell after Theon jumps going to be told?

No povs there now.The prologue is supposed to be about the journey from RR to CR with the hostages.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

The thing is TWOW will start before ADWD ends and the books are written in approximate chronological order. GRRM has warned about this in his other books.  For example Aeron I AFFC (The Prophet) should be located mid ASOS! Whilst the next chapter is after the death of Oberyn.

Similarly Cersei I cannot be the first chapter because it likely happens at the earliest immediately after Kevan's death and most likely after her trial, if indeed that happens.

I see what you mean and I think this is part what keeps GRRM busy and essaying different approaches. Because the book should also have a consistent rhythm. After that very intense first thirds, how do you slowing down a bit to deal with the consequences of the battles. How do you mix intense chapters with relatively boring (but necessary) ones, without breaking the harmony. How do you deal with the tight timelines in Westeros and the necessary longer timelines in Essos? Etc.

Not necessarily.

We could pick up with Cersei the same night as the Small Council meeting Kevan held the night of his death. Or we could pick up earlier that day or the previous day with Cersei. Because, in Kevan's chapter, Cersei has completely changed in character. Kevan notes it and finds it strange, saddening and comforting all at the same time and the audience is supposed to find it odd just as well. It would help.

I think Pycelle's death is ultimately necessary though because with the maester and the Lord Regent dead, the Red Keep is left effectively deaf and blind as far as the ongoing affairs in Westeros. A situation that will likely become more complicated if the Citadel refuses to send another maester to the Red Keep until Pycelle's murder can be solved and the perpetrator brought to justice.

And yes: consistent rhythm. The first third or fourth of Winds is going to feel and read very differently from the last two-thirds or three-fourths of the story.

I mean, what is the first third of the book going to be dominated exclusively by the Battles of Meereen, Winterfell and the Redwyne Straits? Can you put a Sansa chapter in between a Tyrion POV in Meereen and a Victarion POV at the shores? What about Arianne? She's supposed to be travelling to Aegon in the beginning and is only just leaving for Storm's End as of the beginning of her third chapter. A break in the action from the attack on Winterfell and Euron force-feeding Aeron a hallucinogen to Arianne prancing around the Stormlands?

That's rough. I know that A Feast for Crows has an overall theme of the cost of war and A Dance with Dragons is about the cost of peace but...dang. He should've cut Tyrion's Dance chapters in half and moved some of the Dance chapters over to Feast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/8/2019 at 7:29 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Not necessarily.

We could pick up with Cersei the same night as the Small Council meeting Kevan held the night of his death. Or we could pick up earlier that day or the previous day with Cersei. Because, in Kevan's chapter, Cersei has completely changed in character. Kevan notes it and finds it strange, saddening and comforting all at the same time and the audience is supposed to find it odd just as well. It would help.

Yes, indeed. Cersei is planing something but what I mean is that there are other characters whose timelines are still lagging behind.

 

On 11/8/2019 at 7:29 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

I think Pycelle's death is ultimately necessary though because with the maester and the Lord Regent dead, the Red Keep is left effectively deaf and blind as far as the ongoing affairs in Westeros. A situation that will likely become more complicated if the Citadel refuses to send another maester to the Red Keep until Pycelle's murder can be solved and the perpetrator brought to justice.

Indeed, this might be an important reason why Varys decided to kill him. And with the situation in the Reach growing dire, there might not be another Grand Maester.

As a side note, I found always very weird that there is only one maester at the Red Keep. The closest ones seems to be at Rosby and Stokewords!

 

On 11/8/2019 at 7:29 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

And yes: consistent rhythm. The first third or fourth of Winds is going to feel and read very differently from the last two-thirds or three-fourths of the story.

Yes, but I have the feeling that anyway the book will be very intense.

On 11/8/2019 at 7:29 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

I mean, what is the first third of the book going to be dominated exclusively by the Battles of Meereen, Winterfell and the Redwyne Straits? Can you put a Sansa chapter in between a Tyrion POV in Meereen and a Victarion POV at the shores? What about Arianne? She's supposed to be travelling to Aegon in the beginning and is only just leaving for Storm's End as of the beginning of her third chapter. A break in the action from the attack on Winterfell and Euron force-feeding Aeron a hallucinogen to Arianne prancing around the Stormlands?

That's why I argued that these chapters should be the first ones leading to the battles. You cannot place Alyane I amid the battles without breaking the rhythm (same goes for Sam and Davos). For the same reason, it is reasonable to expect that all the battles are narrated altogether, maybe one after another or intermixed. Alyane II, should describe the tourney fuck-up. Either before the battles or immediately after.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×