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Number of secret identities you believe to exist in the series and how they will be revealed

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On 9/22/2018 at 7:59 AM, Megorova said:

I think, that Septa Lemore is Lady Jayne Swann, that in 281 was saved by Barristan Selmy from Kingswood Brotherhood, so she is fAegon's mother, and the boy's father is Barristan. While Ashara Dayne for the last 15+ years was living under name Jyana Reed. Barristan will recognise Septa Lemore as Lady Jayne, so he will know, that fAegon is a fake prince, and could be his son. And Jyana's/Ashara's purpose is to tell Jon who he really is, and what happened at the Tower of Joy (because I think, that Ashara was also there, when Lyanna was giving birth to Jon), and to give to Jon the sword of Daynes, Dawn, which, in my opinion, is Azor Ahai's Lightbringer. Jon is new Azor Ahai. Also he is 1/8 Dayne, thru Aegon V's mother, Queen Dyanna Dayne, so Jon has a right to wield Dawn. So Ashara Dayne will play a role of the Lady of the Lake, the water fairy, that in some versions of Arthurian legends gave Excalibur to King Arthur. Jyana Reed is "water fairy", in certain sense - supposedly she has drowned in the sea, while actually she is living in The Neck, as Lady of Greywater Watch and "queen" of crannogmen.

Theories Septa Lemore/Jayne Swann and Jyana Reed/Ashara Dayne make sense, no?

This all makes perfect sense to me.

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On 9/18/2018 at 7:16 PM, corbon said:

I don't think you've read much about this theory then. Or possibly most of the detailed discussions were lost when the forum moved several years back.
Sheesh, I just checked the wiki, what is there is shameful. :blink:

Try the Tower of the Hand. I don't agree with everything he says (for example Brandon is a much better candidate to have dishonoured Ashara than Ned, both textually and narratively, whom he passes off as fact when we don't actually know), but at least there is enough analysis to give you a thorough grounding in the 'why Lemore being Ashara would narratively work'. IMO it is potentially one of the best working hidden narratives in the series. 
There are a LOT of narrative and collective data points that support Lemore = Ashara. The only flaw, is the eye colour, which is AVOIDED by GRRM. That one seems to be a deal-breaker for most people though, even though purple eyes often appear blue or grey.
Also note that although Tyrion questions her identity, he decides he doesn't care. He's also never met Ashara Dayne, nor had much to do with any Daynes.

 

My current "best" (ie what I think is best supported both textually and narratively, but still only one of many possibilities) narrative goes something like this.

Ashara was dishonoured by Brandon Stark, got pregnant and had a baby, reported stillborn but possibly actually her "sister" Allyria.
She was close to Rhaegar and Elia.
She is possibly involved with finding a wetnurse for Lyanna and sending Wylla to the ToJ (not directly supported, but Wylla seems to be from the Starfall area and Arthur was with Rhaegar and Lyanna, so....)
After the Sack, Varys got Aegon (or the Pisswater Prince) out of KL and on a boat down to Starfall).
Ned turns up at Starfall with Dawn, Jon, Wylla and news of Arthur's death.
More or less simultaneously (the timing would vaguely match, especially if Varys took a few weeks after the sack to get (F/)Aegon out of KL and onto a ship), Ashara receives news and/or instructions from Varys - possibly from the ship carrying (F/)Aegon and waiting offshore.
Before or shortly after Ned leaves, she fakes her death and boards the ship with (F/)Aegon to Essos.
She raises (F/)Aegon under Illyrio's care for several years until Jon Connington is brought into conspiracy.
She remains closely associated with what she believes is the son of her close friend (Elia) and her brother's close friend (Rhaegar), one of the highest level conspirators.


She is a Lady, dornish (golden skinned), close to forty years of age (Tyrion merely guessed and has history guessing ages wrong), had a child which is not in the picture, is closely associated with Elia and Rhaegar, has dark hair, would be a Targaryen loyalist not connected to the Martells (nor to Dany), swims (faked her death by diving into the sea, grew up by the sea), is clearly attractive, has secrets and needs to hide, speaks to Jon Connington (former Hand of the King) as an equal in private, and would be close to the ultimate possible 'witness' to Aegon's authenticity (even if Varys has pulled the wool over her eyes).

A lot of this is highly suspect.  And you're confusing "narrative reason" with "hypothetically possible", which is exactly what I hate about the theory.

It doesn't do anything to further the plot.  How does Ashara Dayne being alive move the story forward, or it's themes?  More to the point, how the hell is she unaware that Aegon VI isn't really Rhaegar's son?  Even Jon Connington is subconsciously aware of it.  But moving on from that; every "hidden identity" thus far has an overall purpose in the story; there is a reason that identity is hidden and a reason for its reveal.  Ashara being Septa Lemore serves none of these purposes.  We already have the person who is supposed to vindicate Aegon; Jon Connington.  We don't need a second person.

GRRM isn't in the business of writing shocking plot twists for the sake of it; he isn't M Night Shyamalan.  fAegon exists to contrast with Jon and Dany; that being a good ruler is hard work, that this isn't your typical High Fantasy novel, where the prince in exile is raised as a commoner and assumes his rightful throne.  Aegon is a fake, almost certainly Illyrio's son and a Blackfyre through the female line (Serra), and despite all of his common upbringing, he has always known he's a prince and thus still has the attitudes and inbred privilege of a royal.  He hasn't had to work for anything; his life is a fairy tale come to life and he never doubts that he'll win, because that is just how the story goes.  Dany and Jon struggle and work for what they have, Jon dies in the course of his arc, Dany is sold into sexual slavery and then into compromising her morals.... these are character struggles that Aegon doesn't have.

By contrast, how does having this tertiary character be some long lost noblewoman advance the plot?  Ashara Dayne is no longer relevant.  What does her being alive add to the story?  GRRM is in the midst of an epic series in which wordcount is at a premium, and for all his other faults, he's fairly economic with his character beats.  Ashara shows up, and... what?  Who does that impact?  How does it effect any of our major characters?  The fAegon storyline is the distraction, the person invading the stories of our protagonists... what does it help to have someone further invade his own plot?

This is what I mean when I narrative or thematic elements are needed.  Coldhands having a hidden identity makes narrative sense; he's served a role but it will advance the plot to know whose "side" he's on.  Septa Lemore being Ashara Dayne... it serves literally no purpose that isn't already covered.  Varys & JonCon can rep to his (false) identity.

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I'm hoping that when Jaime Lannister meets Euron Greyjoy, Euron is revealed to be the Smiling Knight. Hopefully in TWoW.

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2 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

A lot of this is highly suspect.  And you're confusing "narrative reason" with "hypothetically possible", which is exactly what I hate about the theory.

It doesn't do anything to further the plot.  How does Ashara Dayne being alive move the story forward, or it's themes?  More to the point, how the hell is she unaware that Aegon VI isn't really Rhaegar's son?  Even Jon Connington is subconsciously aware of it.  But moving on from that; every "hidden identity" thus far has an overall purpose in the story; there is a reason that identity is hidden and a reason for its reveal.  Ashara being Septa Lemore serves none of these purposes.  We already have the person who is supposed to vindicate Aegon; Jon Connington.  We don't need a second person.

GRRM isn't in the business of writing shocking plot twists for the sake of it; he isn't M Night Shyamalan.  fAegon exists to contrast with Jon and Dany; that being a good ruler is hard work, that this isn't your typical High Fantasy novel, where the prince in exile is raised as a commoner and assumes his rightful throne.  Aegon is a fake, almost certainly Illyrio's son and a Blackfyre through the female line (Serra), and despite all of his common upbringing, he has always known he's a prince and thus still has the attitudes and inbred privilege of a royal.  He hasn't had to work for anything; his life is a fairy tale come to life and he never doubts that he'll win, because that is just how the story goes.  Dany and Jon struggle and work for what they have, Jon dies in the course of his arc, Dany is sold into sexual slavery and then into compromising her morals.... these are character struggles that Aegon doesn't have.

By contrast, how does having this tertiary character be some long lost noblewoman advance the plot?  Ashara Dayne is no longer relevant.  What does her being alive add to the story?  GRRM is in the midst of an epic series in which wordcount is at a premium, and for all his other faults, he's fairly economic with his character beats.  Ashara shows up, and... what?  Who does that impact?  How does it effect any of our major characters?  The fAegon storyline is the distraction, the person invading the stories of our protagonists... what does it help to have someone further invade his own plot?

This is what I mean when I narrative or thematic elements are needed.  Coldhands having a hidden identity makes narrative sense; he's served a role but it will advance the plot to know whose "side" he's on.  Septa Lemore being Ashara Dayne... it serves literally no purpose that isn't already covered.  Varys & JonCon can rep to his (false) identity.

Perhaps I skipped discussing the narrative enough. I assumed reading the TotH essay and my summary of a possible 'past narrative' would give people enough to read the future narrative possibilities themselves.
I'll try and do better.

Note that (below) I'm not 'assuming' any particular narrative, just following through on some of the options.

(F)Aegon might be Rhaegar's son, he might be the Pisswater Prince. He might even be Illyrio's get. We don't know, and there are solid arguments for all of them. He exists because he's part of GRRM's endgame, or at least near-end game. I agree with you that he's more or less a foil to Jon and/or Dany at this stage, and won't be a key end-end game player, but for all that, he's clearly a player in the Game of Thrones, even if we don't believe he'll win due to storytelling reasons. But he. and his supporters, do believe he'll last to the end - and win even. Consequently, both GRRM, and (F)Aegon's supporters, need his story to have high verisimilitude. And we don't know exactly how far he'll last, or what his final fate will be. He could still be there at the end as a secondary player supporting Dany, for example. Mother of Dragons and all that.
Jon Connington doesn't provide verisimilitude. Varys doesn't provide verisimilitude. Both have large gaps in their connection to (F)Aegon, neither would be considered reasonable sources to his identity for several reasons, both would be fairly accused to faking it for their own gain. Both are suitable only for 'supporting witness' type roles. Narratively, neither work for 'proof' of Aegon's identity - not to us, and especially not to Westerosi players.
Ashara Dayne would offer far greater verisimilitude than anyone else by far. She's the 'prime witness' for his story, closely associated with Elia (Connington only with Rhaegar, and youthful courtiers involved in "Prince's Party vs The Old Kings Men at Court" are not associated with swaddling babes) and through her brother, also closely associated with Rhaegar. As Lemore, she's (under this narrative) been the one constant around (f)Aegon with only a very small potential 'custody gap' from KL to Starfall. 
Narratively Ashara Dayne as Lemore would provide that 'proof' - for Westerosi, if not entirely for us. The child's mother's friend and handmaid, sister to the child's father's legendary (and mysteriously not with Rhaegar) best friend, a noblewoman of some renown who sacrificed everything she had and was to raise the child in secret exile...
And yet, despite appearing to have far greater verisimilitude, the gaps she has actually allow Varys to fool her, if that is the final narrative. Firstly, despite her intimate connection to Elia, she was clearly away from her for a significant portion of baby Aegon's life, if not all of it. So she doesn't know the babe as well as you would expect of "Elia's handmaid". She was disgraced from court to have her own babe remember, and Ned found her at Starfall. She'd probably been there most of baby Aegon's life actually. So when Varys tells her "this babe is Prince Aegon whom I exchanged and spirited out of KL", so long as the babe looks roughly right (and both the real Aegon and the Pisswater Prince definitely would) she has no reason to disbelieve him.

And there is a second potential narrative reason for Lemore = Ashara Dayne.
What happens if Barristan meets her? Where does that leave him regarding Dany vs Aegon? Is that the treason for love? Does that allow Dany to take Aegon at face value? All sorts of narrative possibilities open up here.
 

You also seem to ignore all the setup GGRM has done showing that this 'tertiary character' is important enough to the narrative to get a lot of 'set up' by GRRM.
There's no M Night Shymalan crap going on here. 

Quote

 

Young Griff gave his father a stubborn look. "Lemore knows where her cabin is. I want to stay."
"We are sworn to protect you," Lemore said softly.

 

 

Quote

Septa Lemore laughed. Like everyone else aboard the Shy Maid, she had her secrets. She was welcome to them.

Quote

"Even the bravest of your forebears kept his Kingsguard close about him in times of peril." Lemore had changed out of her septa's robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

Quote

Lemore gave him a reproachful look. "That is because you have a wicked soul. Septa's robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us." She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide."

Quote

"Where in the seven hells is Haldon?" Griff complained to Lady Lemore. "How long should it take to buy three horses?"

Quote

"We have gone to great lengths to keep Prince Aegon hidden all these years," Lemore reminded him. "The time will come for him to wash his hair and declare himself, I know, but that time is not now. Not to a camp of sellswords."

Quote

"The plan was to reveal Prince Aegon only when we reached Queen Daenerys," Lemore was saying.

Quote

When they were gone, Griff turned to the Halfmaester. "Ride back to the Shy Maid and return with Lady Lemore and Ser Rolly. We'll need Illyrio's chests as well. All the coin, and the armor. 

Quote

When the food and wine had been brought up, he barred the door, emptied the jug into a bowl, and soaked his hand in it. Vinegar soaks and vinegar baths were the treatment Lady Lemore had prescribed for the dwarf, when she feared he might have greyscale, but asking for a jug of vinegar each morning would give the game away.

Quote

The prince arrived to join them four days later, riding at the head of a column of a hundred horse, with three elephants lumbering in his rear. Lady Lemore was with him, garbed once more in the white robes of a septa. Before them went Ser Rolly Duckfield, a snow-white cloak streaming from his shoulders.

From these quotes we see that Lemore is sworn to protect Prince Aegon (ie not just a hired tutor), has secrets of her own, is likely not there for gold, nor any motive Tyrion can discern, needs to hide her identity, is definitely a Lady (even back in white robes), has gone to great lengths to keep Aegon hidden over the years, can argue plans with Jon Connington (so an important player, not just a hireling), and rides with the proclaimed Prince Aegon in Westeros (so given a position of unusual honour even after the young man is proclaimed.

She's clearly a significant player, not a nobody. Whether she is Ashara or not. As such, her identity is almost certainly narratively important as well.

 

Its not good enough to say "since I don't like these narratives, I'm going to conclude that they serve no purpose and can't exist". There are multiple narratively significant options within the Ashara=Lemore possibility.
You don't have to like the theory, but claiming that it should be dismissed as a mere 'hypothetical possibility' rather than both textually based and narratively supported is... well, lets just say it doesn't enhance ones credibility.






 

 

 

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On 9/24/2018 at 4:33 PM, cpg2016 said:

By contrast, how does having this tertiary character be some long lost noblewoman advance the plot?  Ashara Dayne is no longer relevant.  What does her being alive add to the story?  GRRM is in the midst of an epic series in which wordcount is at a premium, and for all his other faults, he's fairly economic with his character beats.  Ashara shows up, and... what?  Who does that impact?  How does it effect any of our major characters?  The fAegon storyline is the distraction, the person invading the stories of our protagonists... what does it help to have someone further invade his own plot?

I suspect that Ashara Dayne was heavily involved in the events leading to the Tower of Joy.  She could therefore be a useful source of information on Rhaegar, Lyanna, Ned and what the hell happened at the ToJ.  And let's face it, the circumstances surrounding her death practically scream "faked death".

I do have my doubts about Aegon, and have a nasty suspicion that we may never find out for certain who he really is.

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There are so many secret identities! I think all of them have been mentioned in this thread by now, so I'll only add the ones that intrigue me the most and that I can't wait to see them revealed.

1) Quaithe - Shiera Seastar

2) The three-eyed crow - I don't think it's Bloodraven. It could be Shiera Seastar, but it's just a thought.

3) The hooded man of Winterfell - probably Theon Greyjoy. If that's true, it could be revealed in one of his POV chapters.

4) Old Nan - Rohanne Webber (?) or maybe not, but I believe that whoever she is she was a lover of Ser Duncan the Tall.

5) The ghost of High Heart - is she the daughter of Leaf? Half woman and half COTF?

6) Septa Lemore - I haven't made up my mind about who she could be.

7) Coldhands - I have no idea, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

8) Craster - is he a Stark? Does he sacrifice his sons to the Others because his is a particular bloodline?

 

 

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On 9/24/2018 at 11:08 PM, corbon said:

Perhaps I skipped discussing the narrative enough. I assumed reading the TotH essay and my summary of a possible 'past narrative' would give people enough to read the future narrative possibilities themselves.
I'll try and do better.

Note that (below) I'm not 'assuming' any particular narrative, just following through on some of the options.

(F)Aegon might be Rhaegar's son, he might be the Pisswater Prince. He might even be Illyrio's get. We don't know, and there are solid arguments for all of them. He exists because he's part of GRRM's endgame, or at least near-end game. I agree with you that he's more or less a foil to Jon and/or Dany at this stage, and won't be a key end-end game player, but for all that, he's clearly a player in the Game of Thrones, even if we don't believe he'll win due to storytelling reasons. But he. and his supporters, do believe he'll last to the end - and win even. Consequently, both GRRM, and (F)Aegon's supporters, need his story to have high verisimilitude. And we don't know exactly how far he'll last, or what his final fate will be. He could still be there at the end as a secondary player supporting Dany, for example. Mother of Dragons and all that.
Jon Connington doesn't provide verisimilitude. Varys doesn't provide verisimilitude. Both have large gaps in their connection to (F)Aegon, neither would be considered reasonable sources to his identity for several reasons, both would be fairly accused to faking it for their own gain. Both are suitable only for 'supporting witness' type roles. Narratively, neither work for 'proof' of Aegon's identity - not to us, and especially not to Westerosi players.
Ashara Dayne would offer far greater verisimilitude than anyone else by far. She's the 'prime witness' for his story, closely associated with Elia (Connington only with Rhaegar, and youthful courtiers involved in "Prince's Party vs The Old Kings Men at Court" are not associated with swaddling babes) and through her brother, also closely associated with Rhaegar. As Lemore, she's (under this narrative) been the one constant around (f)Aegon with only a very small potential 'custody gap' from KL to Starfall. 
Narratively Ashara Dayne as Lemore would provide that 'proof' - for Westerosi, if not entirely for us. The child's mother's friend and handmaid, sister to the child's father's legendary (and mysteriously not with Rhaegar) best friend, a noblewoman of some renown who sacrificed everything she had and was to raise the child in secret exile...
And yet, despite appearing to have far greater verisimilitude, the gaps she has actually allow Varys to fool her, if that is the final narrative. Firstly, despite her intimate connection to Elia, she was clearly away from her for a significant portion of baby Aegon's life, if not all of it. So she doesn't know the babe as well as you would expect of "Elia's handmaid". She was disgraced from court to have her own babe remember, and Ned found her at Starfall. She'd probably been there most of baby Aegon's life actually. So when Varys tells her "this babe is Prince Aegon whom I exchanged and spirited out of KL", so long as the babe looks roughly right (and both the real Aegon and the Pisswater Prince definitely would) she has no reason to disbelieve him.

And there is a second potential narrative reason for Lemore = Ashara Dayne.
What happens if Barristan meets her? Where does that leave him regarding Dany vs Aegon? Is that the treason for love? Does that allow Dany to take Aegon at face value? All sorts of narrative possibilities open up here.
 

Lets knock this down one by one.  First off, you make this statement that Ashara Dayne provides "greater verisimilitude" than Jon Connington, but provide absolutely no logical evidence for this.  First off, the balance of evidence suggests Ashara Dayne wasn't in Kings Landing during the Rebellion, meaning she has no clue what Aegon VI should look like.  Second, Varys and Illyrio's plans don't require ironclad proof (since, of course, there isn't any).  Having Ashara Dayne be Lemore won't help, because the "proof" is Aegon's looks, and more importantly, the fait accompli of the fact that he'll already be on the Iron Throne, and the people will be clamoring for a return to normalcy and peace after the WOT5K.  It does not seem to me that any of the reasons you've advanced for why Jon Connington is not a reliable witness, are equally valid when applied to Ashara Dayne, and even less so, because Jon Connington, as a seasoned warrior and representative of Westerosi cultural norms, is a far more respectable messenger than a woman.

It also beggars belief that Tyrion, a keen observer of people and someone already given to suspicion of his companions on the Shy Maid, would not note Lemore's eye color; Ashara has "haunting violet" eyes.

But more importantly, you still haven't shown why we should think this person (Septa Lemore) is Ashara Dayne.  You're argument that she adds legitimacy to Aegon's cause is bunk, because she would have already have revealed herself as Ashara once reaching Westeros.  There is no good reason for her to continue to hide her identity and every reason to reveal it; bringing the Dayne's, or more importantly the Martells, on board is a huge thing.  Doran and his court would certainly recognize her.  And yet... nothing.  Aegon's whole story is meant to be a mirror image of Jon, and especially Dany's story.  Dany has struggled her whole life, built her kingdom out of force of personality and sacrifice.  She's been sold into slavery, raped, abused, the target of every conceivable injustice, forced to mortgage her ideals, and all this to be forged into a hero capable of saving the world.  And here comes Aegon, who has led a storybook life, comfortable and loved and never in danger, always aware of his destiny, to usurp her place.  Whether or not he's a Blackfyre or whatever is totally unimportant to the narrative, which is why we won't find out; the hidden identity part is important only insofar as he's Young Griff, because he's supposed to come out of the woodwork. Thematically, he has to be something of a blank slate.  His reveal drives the plot (now Dany has another, more internal enemy to fight, and probably will also lead to her blowing up Kings Landing) and helps sharpen character arcs and the thematic elements of the plot.  Septa Lemore = Ashara Dayne does none of this.  It's a "gotcha!" moment and GRRM doesn't go in for that, or not to date.  It doesn't present any of our heroes with a new ethical dilemma or a new challenge.  I guess, maybe, if you think Barristan is going to survive the Battle of Fire (which I don't), then maybe he has to kill her or decide not to?  I'm not sure how that would play out, because she's not a threat to Dany directly so I cannot imagine a situation in which this would happen.  

Also, one point you've failed to address at all... why is Ashara going in for this scheme?  Why is she giving up her life in Starfall, her whole future, to go on this absurd years-long journey?  Jon Connington is already an exile, and is in love with Rhaegar to boot.  For him, this is both emotionally and politically his only way back from the wilderness.  Even he knows, even if subconsciously, that Aegon is a fake.  As you say, Ashara was a common fixture at court before the Rebellion, surely she'd notice that Aegon doesn't have Rhaegar's eyes, begin to suspect the truth.  So why is she on this random boat in the middle of nowhere for years and years, to groom a fake Targaryen to take the Iron Throne?  Where is her motivation?  If she's as good a witness to Aegon's legitimacy as you claim, then the reverse is also true; she is unlikely to be taken in by the mummery.  Jon Connington is deceiving himself because emotionally, he has to.  Why does Ashara?  She gains nothing from this excursion, and while she may have been friends with Elia, this kind of commitment goes way beyond friendship.

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7 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

I think enough has been said to let others see with their own eyes the data and arguments. I'm happy with what I've said, and I'm happy to let what you've said in reply stand for itself.

Lets not distract this thread any longer arguing about a single theory, which is not the purpose of this thread.

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I always figured Ashara is Septa Lemore, but now I'm starting to doubt it. I find it weird that Tyrion wouldn't note Lemore's eyes, considering if she was Ashara, it was one of the most notable things about her. I'm starting to think that Lemore could be Tyene Sand's mother and that Doran Is utilizing Tyene as a hostage to get Lemore to follow fAegon around, and set something up.

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As I wrote earlier, there are secret identities but the number is not going to be that many.  Too many usage of one plot device ruins the story.  Too many people with secret identities and too many people coming back to life will ruin the story.

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22 hours ago, kleevedge said:

I always figured Ashara is Septa Lemore, but now I'm starting to doubt it. I find it weird that Tyrion wouldn't note Lemore's eyes, considering if she was Ashara, it was one of the most notable things about her. I'm starting to think that Lemore could be Tyene Sand's mother and that Doran Is utilizing Tyene as a hostage to get Lemore to follow fAegon around, and set something up.

Not really possible.
From the Tower of the Hand (rather than me writing it all out for you):
 

Quote

The Mother of Tyene Sand

This is the most blatantly obvious answer to Septa Lemore. A septa who has had children? We've heard of one of those. She is the mother of Tyene Sand, a prominent member of the Sand Snakes and close friend of Arianne Martell. At first glance, Tyene's mother seems to fit well enough. Assuming Tyene is more or less the same age as Arianne, who is 23, she could easily have been mothered by a woman in her forties. Her father, of course, was Oberyn Martell, who we know to have had Targaryen loyalties; the septa in question could therefore be linked to both Dorne and the Targaryens. As for being a lady, that could be another aspect of her character, perhaps even hidden from Oberyn; this suggests that we have truly met a new character in Septa Lemore, though she's still not who she seems.

Unfortunately, this idea doesn't hold water long. For one thing, while the link to House Martell is compelling given the current revolutionary attitude of that family (not to mention the presence of the Dornish Yandry and Ysilla on the Shy Maid), Tyene's mother is actually too close to House Martell for consideration. Doran Martell, after all, does not appear to have any knowledge of Aegon Targaryen or the plot between Varys and Jon Connington. If he had known, he wouldn't have sent Quentyn to marry Daenerys, since the marriage between Dany and Aegon was part of the plan. If, somehow, he knew about Aegon but not about the planned marriage, he would likely have schemed to wed Aegon to Arianne. His actions (the ones we've seen, at least) suggest he's not in on Varys' schemes. If that's the case, it doesn't make sense for Tyene's mother to be on the Shy Maid. Wouldn't Prince Doran at least know something about it, through Oberyn at least? It's not exactly hard evidence, but it seems unlikely.

Okay, here's the hard evidence.

From AFFC 22, The Queenmaker:

Arianne Martell had crossed the Mander once, when she had gone with three of the Sand Snakes to visit Tyene's mother.

This passage essentially puts to rest whatever life Tyene's mother still had as a candidate. Presumably, Septa Lemore has been with Aegon for several years, and Arianne was at least old enough at the time of her journey that she is able to remember details from it later. The fact that Arianne and the Sand Snakes had to cross the Mander suggests that Tyene's mother lives deep in the Reach, if not in the Westerlands. It's hard to imagine that sometime after Arianne's casual visit, this individual forsake her name and crossed the narrow sea to tutor one of the last Targaryens.

 

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

If he had known, he wouldn't have sent Quentyn to marry Daenerys, since the marriage between Dany and Aegon was part of the plan. If, somehow, he knew about Aegon but not about the planned marriage, he would likely have schemed to wed Aegon to Arianne

Possible TWoW Spoiler

Spoiler

Doran Martell did exactly that though. He sent Arianne to go win over fAegon after he crossed the narrow sea.

This doesn't disprove anything Quentyn wasn't after Dany, he was after the dragons.

Quote

They do not see. His friends had lost sight of his true purpose here. The road leads through her, not to her. Daenerys is the means to the prize, not the prize itself.

Quote

The dragons, Prince Quentyn thought. Yes. We came for the dragons.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Arianne Martell had crossed the Mander once, when she had gone with three of the Sand Snakes to visit Tyene's mother. 

This passage essentially puts to rest whatever life Tyene's mother still had as a candidate. Presumably, Septa Lemore has been with Aegon for several years, and Arianne was at least old enough at the time of her journey that she is able to remember details from it later. The fact that Arianne and the Sand Snakes had to cross the Mander suggests that Tyene's mother lives deep in the Reach, if not in the Westerlands. It's hard to imagine that sometime after Arianne's casual visit, this individual forsake her name and crossed the narrow sea to tutor one of the last Targaryens.

This also doesn't disprove anything. It actually adds to the possibility of Lemore being Tyene's mother. Aegon "died" at 283 so let's say that's when Arianne and Tyene went to visit Lemore, that would make Arianne about 7, definitely old enough to remember the trip. It's very likely Doran sent them on that trip to retrieve fAegon from Varys, and sent Lemore away with him. Even if Lemore met up with Aegon later, that leaves plenty of time to make the trip to see Lemore. I also don't believe she did so willingly, Doran is manipulative and would be using Tyene as a hostage while Lemore fulfills this task. I'm not sold on Tyene's mother being Septa Lemore but I do think it's still a possibility and nothing I've seen posted can disprove it.

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Lady Shella Whent, who lost Harrenhall, is now impoverished.  She's living in a forest in the Riverlands where she's struggling to protect the small folk.  She meets Arya and the Hound, and they name her "Lady of the Leaves".  She rejoices to hear Berrick Dondarion is alive, and says her little village will have to move when winter comes.  Arya notes she looks ill.  Later we hear that Lady Whent has died.  I'm not sure of why she would have been happy about Dondarion, unless he had been protecting her and her small folk.  It appears she died without issue, ending House Whent.

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Excellent topic. 

Jon = aegon vii (see username)

mance=rhaegar

qhorin= dayne

kettleblack= Orwell whent and his nephews

quaithe= ashara

haldon halfmaester = Leyton hightower 

septa Lemore - malora hightower 

rowan = missing umber daughter

mel = child/descendent of shiera sea star, possibly with br

lemoncloak=lonmouth

Daario= targ blood

Ser shadrik = howland reed

Hodor, Brienne = dunc blood

 

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On 9/9/2018 at 12:54 PM, John Suburbs said:

Lol, I knew I'd be sorry. I think you're swimming against some pretty strong textual currents on this one:

The 3EC promises Bran that he will learn to fly. Brynden teaches Bran to fly.

Jojen Reed's mission is to bring Bran to the 3EC. He brings him to Brynden.

It's taken five novels for Bran to reach Brynden, and now he has to embark on another journey to find the 3EC? With only two books left?

Sorry, it's going to take more than a suspicion that Quaith has a third eye behind her mask or that the 3EC must literally have three physical eyes to convince me. GRRM has borrowed a lot from literature, but by no means does this suggest that Brynden is anything but the 3EC.

This is a slight tangent, and is not to discredit anyone’s opinions. However, I feel it is worth repeating. 

When I taught English, I would remind my students of two things when analyzing a text. 1) there are different levels of analysis and appreciation and 2) writing goes through a rigorous revision process by both writer and editor(s), so if it is in the text, it is there for a reason and should not be discounted. 

Granted, in regards to the 2nd principle, the student wasn’t arguing about the color of someone’s eyes, but an action of a secondary character, but o hold that the principle is true more often than not. 

Both of these apply here. It is possible that Martin has included all of these clues connecting Arthurian legend, Tolkien, and Irish/Welsh mythology to lead a reader with knowledge of these concepts in an intellectual feast of discovery. Their appreciation of the novels would be increased. That said, a reader without that knowledge should also be able to come to the same conclusion with clues that do not require outside source material. Words of the text matter, more than words in outside texts. 

I have never heard this theory before, but if it turns out to be true, it’s a nice example of what I am speaking of. Outside allusions to add richness, with textual support-Bran seeing a woman is substantial to me. 

Also, to the topic-

I want to know who Quaithe is. Why does she care about Westeros or Dany or the dragons? 

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On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 10:14 PM, Lollygag said:

I agree. While the forum hates secret identities, the author loves them. A lot. To get a proper sense of their role in the series, you need to consider all of the secret identities already revealed and those who are secret to others in-series, but were never secret to the reader. 

Adding the secret identities which the reader knows are yet to be revealed (all of the Stark kids, Stoneheart, Jeyne Poole, no one thinks Bloodraven is still around...), secret identities which characters only had for a time (Barristan, whatever's up with Mel, Theon, Catelyn & KL, Jaime, Brienne, Tyrion, Cersei (used to dress as a boy), Joff, Myrcella and Tommen Hill as Baratheons...), and add characters who seem likely to have secret identities like those listed upthread, the list becomes massive. 

Agree that the author loves secret identities.

We could confine the list to secret identities, so far revealed, that were also kept secret from the reader for a certain amount of time, however brief.  Here we have:

(1) Aristan, later revealed as Barristan

(2) Bran and Rickon, when killed, later revealed to have been the miller's boys.

(3) "Reek" servant of Ramsay, later revealed to be Ramsay himself.

(4) "Reek", servant of Ramsay, takes some time to remember that he is actually Theon.

(5) Renly, believed dead, appears in battle, later revealed to be someone else in his armor.

(6) "The Hound" confronts Brienne who takes him for the last "Hound", Rorge.  It is soon revealed to be Lem.

(7) IIRC, "Lady Stoneheart" was a mystery for a while, before readers found out she was an undead Catelyn.

(8) "The Three Eyed Crow" was a mystery, before he was revealed (rightly or wrongly) to be Brynden Rivers.

There must be more that I have not thought of.

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On ‎9‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 10:35 PM, Megorova said:

This one isn't confirmed. For now, I still think, that the 3EC is actully Shiera Seastar, who is also Quaithe.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

I think it is

But maybe Quaithe who is also Shiera seastar is Bloodraven <_<

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On 10/4/2018 at 8:55 PM, kleevedge said:

I always figured Ashara is Septa Lemore, but now I'm starting to doubt it. I find it weird that Tyrion wouldn't note Lemore's eyes, considering if she was Ashara, it was one of the most notable things about her. I'm starting to think that Lemore could be Tyene Sand's mother and that Doran Is utilizing Tyene as a hostage to get Lemore to follow fAegon around, and set something up.

Lemore being Tyene's mother doesn't make a whole lot of sense either. Tyene is a blonde, blue-eyed, fair-skinned girl. We know what Oberyn looked like. So she must take after her mother, right? 

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