Jump to content
Sly Wren

GRRM Already Told Us the Tower of Joy Backstory: Wrong Joy, No Hiding, and Fight Elsewhere.

Recommended Posts

18 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I have not read this anywhere before. Very interesting.

I think most of heresy could agree with this summary. :commie:

We may have other details and different views on some aspects, but overall it fits. 

Edited by SirArthur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Love the two-part OP, @Sly Wren. My kind of thread, with lots of citations of evidence from the books and an understanding of the "echoes" that GRRM uses to provide a trail of clues before unveiling what appear to be major plot twists. Those echoes are not always a direct, one-to-one match of parallels between characters but often include surrounding details that cover the major similarities.

Your contribution to the "Ashara, post Harrenhal" thread was already bypassed by that discussion, but it combines with this discussion pretty well. I was excited by your points there (essentially, that GRRM wants us to compare Ashara and Lysa Arryn) because it supports (in my opinion) my own notion that GRRM wants us to compare Ashara and Brienne.

I really like the idea of the "Stark maid" as beside the point of these parallel "hidden royal baby" plots. That hadn't occurred to me, but it is one of those points that immediately clicks in my head when I read it. Other things make more sense (such as Brienne as a maid) when I read that. As they flee the scene of Renly's death, Brienne and Catelyn have a discussion about the similarity between childbirth for women and combat - both involve a lot of blood and a risk of death. Many threads and comments in this forum assume that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but I have not seen much discussion that says she continued to act as a warrior after the tournament. I think GRRM is giving us a number of women warriors whose combat is not seen or acknowledged by other POV characters - we see Brienne and Arya and Maege Mormont as warriors, but assume that all of the other lovely young and old women are passive vessels, waiting for the next betrothal to advance their families in the game of thrones. It shocks us when Dany uses her hidden linguistic skills and her command of her dragon to defeat Kraznys mo Nakloz but maybe we do start to think of Dany as more than just a royal heiress at this point. I think this is just one example, and there is more going on than the reader suspects regarding feminine wiles and willingness to fight.

I questioned some time ago whether Ned's memory of Lyanna's bed of blood necessarily meant that Lyanna had just given birth. Given the Knight of the Laughing Tree theories, as well as the points developed in this thread about Lyanna as a collateral figure in Rhaegar and Ashara's arc, I wonder whether she set out from Winterfell because she wanted to join Rhaegar's bannermen? She did not want to marry Robert and maybe her antipathy toward him included wanting to help defeat him in battle.

If the Brienne / Ashara comparison is on target, another parallel might be Ashara as Catelyn (a mother trying to protect her child / children) and Lyanna as Brienne, a sworn sword who pledges her leal service to a highborn lady. Ser Barristan tells us that Ashara turned to "Stark" instead of him. We assume she turned to Brandon or Ned, and that one of those Stark brothers also dishonored her. But what if she saw Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree and turned to Lyanna for protection? Ashara was a stunningly beautiful woman and may have been tired of men hitting on her all the time, especially if she already had a lover and/or a baby or pregnancy she was worried about. Maybe she turned to Lyanna as the safest "true knight" to protect her interests. (Maybe Ned had the sword Dawn because Ashara loaned it to Lyanna, not because Ned slayed Arthur Dayne.)

When Brienne pledged her sword to Catelyn, all she asked of Catelyn is to be allowed to avenge Renly's death by going after Stannis when the chance arises. If the situations are parallel, would there be a similar deal between Ashara and Lyanna? Who would Lyanna want to kill while incidentally serving Ashara?

I should probably provide a little rationale for the connection I see between Lysa (your Ashara parallel character) and Brienne (my Ashara parallel character).

  • Jaime was supposed to marry Lysa before he joined the Kingsguard. Lysa's son would have been Lord of Casterly Rock. Subsequently, Jaime becomes closely linked to Brienne.
  • There is a "shit for honor" theme connected to Jaime and, possibly, to the Moon Door at the Eyrie: an outhouse traditionally would have a crescent moon on its door. Lysa seem like a person without honor, if she colluded with Baelish to kill Jon Arryn and start a war. She falls through the Moon Door like a piece of ____. The words of House Arryn are "As High As Honor."
  • I mentioned in the linked Brienne post (see above) that the description of the maid dancing at Harrenhal matched up with details from Brienne's arc. I think we can dig down even deeper to use the incidents of Ashara and Brienne's stories to understand details about both women and about Lyanna. For instance, Red Ronnet Connington gives Brienne a rose and says, "That's all you'll ever get from me." This might confirm your idea that Rhaegar giving winter roses to Lyanna was not a gesture to launch a love affair, but a token of farewell. Brienne hates roses from that day forward. Ashara's first dance partner was a white sword: people have guessed that this is a member of the King's Guard, but they are usually associated with white cloaks, not white swords. The Dayne sigil, on the other hand, specifically includes a white sword. I think Ashara's first "dance" was with her brother. Then she dances with a red snake. I share my speculation about a dishonor / dornish pun, below.
  • I think GRRM also wants us to make a connection between House Dayne and House Payne. Aside from the rhyming surnames, both houses have purple and white sigils. The House Dayne sigil includes a white sword. Ser Ilyn Payne has a silver sword which he hands to Joffrey for cutting the ceremonial pigeon pie at his wedding feast. In heraldry, silver and white are both called argent. I see argent as a color closely associated with Targaryens and in particular with people named Aegon Targaryen. When ASOIAF left off after ADwD, Brienne was traveling with a young Payne and Jaime was traveling with Ser Ilyn Payne. The redemptive arc and the definition of honor both seem to be at stake in Jaime and Brienne's stories - what does it mean to keep an oath? My guess is that the exploration of honor in their stories links to something dishonorable that occurred in the story of Ser Arthur Dayne. We don't yet know what that is, but the parallel character of Ser Ilyn Payne may have been living in the dungeon of the Red Keep with a bucket of shit as a symbolic representation of the punishment that should have been doled out to Arthur Dayne.
  • Another important fall from a tower occurs when Jaime pushes Bran, of course. This occurs to hide a forbidden, incestuous, treasonous love affair in an ancient building. Does the old keep at Winterfell seem like a good parallel for the Baelish Drearfort? It would not surprise me at all if others were aware of Jaime and Cersei having sex in that old building, just as everyone in the room with Sansa could hear Lysa and Petyr having sex in the old tower at The Fingers. Keep in mind, Petyr was a foster brother of sorts for both Catelyn and Lysa long before he became Lysa's husband. This brother / sister sex motif might be another clue for us about Ashara's baby daddy.

You also looped Arya and the Brotherhood Without Banners into your analysis of the mysterious, dream-recollection that seemed to refer to the Tower of Joy. Of course, I love this as further support for a possible Brienne parallel. Before he started dying and resurrecting, Ser Beric Dondarrion was betrothed to a Dayne. He is revived by Thoros of Myr. He finally gives Catelyn his last breath and she revives as Lady Stoneheart, taking command of the Brotherhood Without Banners. (Making the transition from mother to warrior, in a sense.) But we also see Thoros revive Brienne: after she narrowly survives the attack by Rorge and Biter at the inn at the crossroads, she finally starts to feel better and has the best food she has ever tasted (according to her) when Thoros feeds her. THEN, of course, they take her to Lady Stoneheart and the rest of the BWB, who hang Brienne, Podrick Payne and Ser Hyle Hunt. Pretty complicated, but I feel like there is a parallel or echo here, although clearly not an exact one-to-one parallel between your analysis of the Hound / BWB confrontation and the Ned / Kingsguard conflict.

I could go on and on with details from the close reading of the text, including some Dunk & Egg stuff as well as analysis of the Bael / Baelor / Baelish parallels (I am mindful of @SFDanny's point about Bael taking a Stark maid into a crypt contrasting with Baelish taking a Stark maid - and Lysa - into a tower. But King Baelor locks his sisters in a tower, I believe. A closer look at towers and underground rooms would be worthwhile.) I suspect there is also parallel material in what little we know of the Kingswood Brotherhood and their attack on Rhaegar's wife, Elia. The Kingswood Brotherhood was similar to the Brotherhood Without Banners in some ways. It was founded by a Toyne, whose house came into conflict with the Targaryens when an ancestor had an affair with Aegon IV's mistress, Bethany Bracken. So that brings us back to the Blackwood / Bracken conflict with is of a piece with the Blackfyre rebellions and the Bloodraven / Bittersteel feud.

I think it's also important to look at Merrillion, the singer who wanted to rape Sansa, who sang a song about a lady sewing when Lysa tried to push Sansa out the moon door, and who was (falsely) implicated in Lysa's death. In the parallel story involving Ashara, the singer / harp player would be Rhaegar. If the Merillion / Rhaegar parallel is direct, then he was not responsible for the death of Ashara (or Lyanna?) but was wrongly blamed. The real killer would be the Baelish parallel figure. Who traveled with Rhaegar and might be parallel to Baelish?

Another angle to explore: Many people think Septa Lemore might be Ashara Dayne in disguise. I'm not 100% sold on this, but I do think GRRM wants us to compare Ashara and Lemore. I also think Septa Mordane, who supervised the needlework at Winterfell, is a good candidate for Ashara in disguise. Septa Lemore helps Tyrion with needlework on the Shy Maid when Connington tells him to sew himself a new outfit out of children's clothes provided by Ilyrio. The needlework connection brings us back to women warriors because of the name of Arya's sword. Mordane's other big scene is introducing Sansa to Petyr Baelish at the Hand's Tourney and escorting Jeyne Poole - later to become fArya and to be raped by a usurper - from the tourney when she is sickened by the bloodshed. Jeyne Poole / fArya has a crush on Ser Beric Dondarrion, who we have already linked to the Daynes through his betrothal to Allyria Dayne. (The winners at that tourney are Sandor Clegane in the jousting and Anguy and Thoros of Myr in the archery and melee - soon to meet again when Sandor has his trial by combat with the Ser Beric at the Brotherhood Without Banners hollow hill.)

I hate to say it, but I think we might also have to look at Asha Greyjoy and Osha the wildling in exhausting all clues about Ashara. Asha refers to herself as a Shy Maid several times. The fact that fAegon / Young Griff is carried on a boat called the Shy Maid is a second clue in addition to the similarity between the Ashara / Asha names. Theon tells the reader that Asha and Osha sound alike, and the Osha parallel may be her role in hiding / protecting Rickon Stark, similar to Ashara's suspected role in hiding / protecting a royal baby.

Once you start following these symbolism threads, you can keep going and going and going.

I'll just throw out a last little bit of word play and then I'll save the rest for later posts.

I am wondering whether the "dishonor" that Barristan says was inflicted on Ashara is wordplay on "Dornish." I think GRRM may be telling us that Ashara was impregnated by a Dornishman. Maybe that's why Mance introduces Jon Snow to the song, "The Dornishman's Wife." Was one of the Martell brothers at Harrenhal? Which other Dornishmen might be involved in dishonoring Ashara? (The red snake might also tie back into the "shit for honor" symbolism because of possible wordplay on "viper" and "privy".)

The other possible wordplay I see is that the word "Wall" in English is "Wand" in German. I think our bastard at the Wall is going to wield the sword Dawn (= Wand). It's possible that Jon Snow is the son of either Ashara or Arthur Dayne. Or both.

(I'm still holding out the possibility that he is the son of Rhaegar and Ashara or Rhaegar and Lyanna - the Wall is described as being a snake on one side and a sword on the other side. The two sides meet at Castle Black and the tunnel under the Wall. I think the snake could be a symbolic dragon and the sword could symbolize Dawn or maybe the Stark sword, Ice. Jon Snow is the point where the two sides meet.)

Edited by Seams

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/6/2018 at 4:36 PM, Sly Wren said:

 

Part III: Then why fight at the tower if no one’s in it? Because, like Dunk, the 3 Kingsguard likely went to a prearranged location to confront a superior foe. The tower of joy was that prearranged location.

1. Ser Duncan and his story are chock full of Dayne imagery—Dunk’s sigil is a falling star. It’s a clear reference to Arthur Dayne and Dawn—the last things Ned sees in his dream before beginning his fateful fight with Arthur and Co.

2. After symbolically tying Dunk to Dayne in The Hedge Knight, Martin gives us an interesting scene in The Sworn Sword: Dunk is sworn to Ser Eustace Osgrey who owns a holdfast/tower called Standfast. Osgrey’s enemy has a superior force and will soon attack.

3. Dunk tells Ser Bennis that it’s stupid to hole up inside the tower and try to fight off a superior force. And he agrees that it’s stupid to fight such a force outside the tower, too.

Ser Bennis looked at his soldiers, his mouth running red with sourleaf. Can't hold the hill with so few spears. Got to be the tower. We all hole up inside.” He nodded at the door. “Only one way in. Haul up them wooden steps, and there's no way they can reach us.”

“Until they build some steps of their own. They might bring ropes and grapnels, too, and swarm down on you through the roof. Unless they just stand back with their crossbows and fill you full of quarrels while you're trying to hold the door.” The Sworn Sword.

4. Instead, Dunk decides that the best way to defend the man he’s sworn to defend is to leave the place he wants to defend and meet the enemy elsewhere.

“Ser?” Egg stood beside him. “Ser, if we mean to go, we'd best be gone, in case the Widow comes.”

The boy was right. If we linger, we'll be trapped here. The Sworn Sword

5. Result? Dunk meets the enemy at a neutral location and eventually fights a ritualized battle to settle a score. He even ends up fighting in a river.

6. So, for a Dayne-like knight, fighting a superior force inside or outside a tower that you want to defend is stupid—leave the ground you’re defending and fight at a neutral location.

7. Why did Martin include this after establishing Dunk’s symbolic tie to Arthur Dayne in Hedge Knight? Martin wrote Sworn Sword knowing full well what many fans thought about the tower of joy fight. For example: the SSM many reference is from 2002. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Tower_of_Joy

Martin first published Sworn Sword in 2003. Very unlikely this is an accident—he knew.

8. THUS: there’s a whopping good chance that Dayne and the Kingsguard left the place they were defending and confronted a superior force at a neutral location. Just like Dunk—because fighting a superior force inside or outside the tower you’re defending is stupid.

Part IV: Wrapping Up: Narrative precedent is worth noting.

1. The three scenes/plot points listed above all have clear ties to Ned’s tower dream.

2. Sansa and Arya, stolen Stark maids, are NOT the primary missions of their captors.

3. Stark maids don’t hole up and hide in isolated towers with funny names—and they find no “joy” there. They hide in plain sight under aliases.

4. Arthur Dayne-like fighters (Dunk and Beric both have lots of Dayne imagery) fight ritual fights to defend their missions—which don’t include Stark maids.

5. And the Dayne-like Dunk does NOT fight in or at the actual tower/place he wants to defend. He goes to a neutral location. Fighting in or around such towers is stupid.

6. Given all this, there’s a really good chance Martin’s been giving us information about the tower fight throughout the books, not just making us guess.

7. If so, it’s unlikely that anyone was in the tower of joy during that fight. Or that the Kingsguard fought to the death over a Stark maid. Something else is up. “Keep reading.”

THE END

 

Definitely an interesting point about the Tower. I would laugh if Lyanna actually ran to become a faceless man or is Septa Lemore hahaha 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

1. @Black Crow argues that they are fighting rather than yielding--three Ronin.

2. But I think the KG have a mission other than the Stark maid. The brotherhood fight on despite Robert's death and losing their royal banner in a fight at a river. But the brotherhood without banners have a Stark maid right there--and she isn't their mission. Martin shows us 3 Stark maids (Jon, Sansa, and Arya) all taken hostage by either a Rhaegar figure or KG figures--and in none of the cases is the Stark maid the mission.

Really seems like that's something we should pay attention to. 

3. That said, if I had to put down money, I think the KG still have a mission, like the brotherhood without banners does. My current guess? Rhaegar did want a third child and his paramour is pregnant--that paramour being Ashara Dayne. Would fit with Sansa at Baelish's tower witnessing the joy of another woman. With Rhaegar's need for a child. With both Ashara and Lysa reportedly dying via white tower, mourning a lost love and a lost child.

4. If so, the KG would have great reason to fight ETA.--though I think that there's an excellent chance they don't think they will win, regardless of whom they are protecting. They have to know they are unlikely to win.

5. ETA: As for why Ned is fighting? He wants his sister back. And I'm guessing they may have thought the KG would yield--but they don't--Arthur dons his helm and unsheathes his sword. 

1. I think Lyanna, like Sansa at the Eyrie, is at Starfall--the only other castle in Westeros known to have white towers (like the Eyrie). Where a woman also presumably falls to her death from a white tower, supposedly mourning a lost child and a lost love--as does Lysa.

2. And I think they are fighting at the tower out in the Prince's Pass because it is a neutral location, away from the ones they want to protect. It's what Dunk does when he's up against a superior force--meets a smaller force at a prearranged locale.

And we even have those mentions in the World Book of how the Stony Dornish often don't fight invaders from their castles. They either disappear or ride out to fight their enemies in the Prince's Pass. Arthur's Stony Dornish--may be following that, too.

One way or another--really seems like Martin may not be making us guess what happened around the tower fight--he's been giving us info throughout the books. The echoes of the tower at Baelish's tower and of the KG and the brotherhood--they seem far too on point.

Many problems with this.

1.  What is Lyanna;s role in all this?  If she isn't Rhaegar's paramour, then what is her purpose?  And why did he take her? 

2.  We have no evidence of a romantic connection between Ashara and Rhaegar.  The only woman Rhaegar has been linked to (other than his wife) is Lyanna.  The only man Ashara has been linked to is Ned.  And given that Ashara was his wife's handmaid, if GRRM wanted to suggest a romantic link, it wouldn't be difficult.

3.  Lysa did not jump from the moon door - and no one believes that she did.  Littlefinger and Sansa accuse Marillion of murdering her out of jealousy over her marriage to Baelish.  No suggestion of suicide.  And whatever might have happened to Ashara, nobody has suggested she was murdered.

4.  Why are the KG protecting Lyanna?  And from whom.  And who do you think Jon's parents are, anyway.  Come to think of it, who is Ashara's child?  Not Jon; we know that one of his parents was a Stark.

5.  The Tower of Joy is 200-300 miles from Starfall.  Why are the KG going all that distance, and why don't they bring reinforcements?  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/6/2018 at 7:36 PM, Sly Wren said:

 

Part III: Then why fight at the tower if no one’s in it? Because, like Dunk, the 3 Kingsguard likely went to a prearranged location to confront a superior foe. The tower of joy was that prearranged location.

1. Ser Duncan and his story are chock full of Dayne imagery—Dunk’s sigil is a falling star. It’s a clear reference to Arthur Dayne and Dawn—the last things Ned sees in his dream before beginning his fateful fight with Arthur and Co.

2. After symbolically tying Dunk to Dayne in The Hedge Knight, Martin gives us an interesting scene in The Sworn Sword: Dunk is sworn to Ser Eustace Osgrey who owns a holdfast/tower called Standfast. Osgrey’s enemy has a superior force and will soon attack.

3. Dunk tells Ser Bennis that it’s stupid to hole up inside the tower and try to fight off a superior force. And he agrees that it’s stupid to fight such a force outside the tower, too.

Ser Bennis looked at his soldiers, his mouth running red with sourleaf. Can't hold the hill with so few spears. Got to be the tower. We all hole up inside.” He nodded at the door. “Only one way in. Haul up them wooden steps, and there's no way they can reach us.”

“Until they build some steps of their own. They might bring ropes and grapnels, too, and swarm down on you through the roof. Unless they just stand back with their crossbows and fill you full of quarrels while you're trying to hold the door.” The Sworn Sword.

4. Instead, Dunk decides that the best way to defend the man he’s sworn to defend is to leave the place he wants to defend and meet the enemy elsewhere.

“Ser?” Egg stood beside him. “Ser, if we mean to go, we'd best be gone, in case the Widow comes.”

The boy was right. If we linger, we'll be trapped here. The Sworn Sword

5. Result? Dunk meets the enemy at a neutral location and eventually fights a ritualized battle to settle a score. He even ends up fighting in a river.

6. So, for a Dayne-like knight, fighting a superior force inside or outside a tower that you want to defend is stupid—leave the ground you’re defending and fight at a neutral location.

7. Why did Martin include this after establishing Dunk’s symbolic tie to Arthur Dayne in Hedge Knight? Martin wrote Sworn Sword knowing full well what many fans thought about the tower of joy fight. For example: the SSM many reference is from 2002. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_the_Tower_of_Joy

Martin first published Sworn Sword in 2003. Very unlikely this is an accident—he knew.

8. THUS: there’s a whopping good chance that Dayne and the Kingsguard left the place they were defending and confronted a superior force at a neutral location. Just like Dunk—because fighting a superior force inside or outside the tower you’re defending is stupid.

Part IV: Wrapping Up: Narrative precedent is worth noting.

1. The three scenes/plot points listed above all have clear ties to Ned’s tower dream.

2. Sansa and Arya, stolen Stark maids, are NOT the primary missions of their captors.

3. Stark maids don’t hole up and hide in isolated towers with funny names—and they find no “joy” there. They hide in plain sight under aliases.

4. Arthur Dayne-like fighters (Dunk and Beric both have lots of Dayne imagery) fight ritual fights to defend their missions—which don’t include Stark maids.

5. And the Dayne-like Dunk does NOT fight in or at the actual tower/place he wants to defend. He goes to a neutral location. Fighting in or around such towers is stupid.

6. Given all this, there’s a really good chance Martin’s been giving us information about the tower fight throughout the books, not just making us guess.

7. If so, it’s unlikely that anyone was in the tower of joy during that fight. Or that the Kingsguard fought to the death over a Stark maid. Something else is up. “Keep reading.”

THE END

 

Nice work.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On September 9, 2018 at 9:31 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Sex being used as a political tool.  It doesn't fit what we know of Arthur.  Unless he fell in love with her.  And Lyanna to him. 

My apologies for the delay.

On the above: Yes--this I buy. We see it with Jon and Ygritte: the zealous sworn brother falling for the wild northern girl.

On September 9, 2018 at 9:31 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Part of my thinking has to do with the sword, Dawn.  Somebody will wield that sword and it seems like Jon Snow is it.  But he would have to be a Dayne in order to earn the blade.  Jon soiled himself with Ygritte in order to win the trust of Mance Rayder.  Arthur perhaps soiled his own honor for his king.

1. I'm with you on Jon getting Dawn.

2. Arthur seducing Lyanna to "follow orders?" Really struggling to see that.

But being seduced as Jon is and as we see with Arys Oakheart in Dorne? Yes--that I buy.

On September 9, 2018 at 9:31 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Seriously, Brandon probably knew full well what happened.  Lyanna was crucial to pull off their conspiracy.  No Lyanna = No blood bond between Stark and Baratheon = southron ambitions falls on its face in failure.  

Maybe--But his reaction still seems odd. No one freaks out when Loras gives Sansa that rose--and she's betrothed to the crown prince. Loras isn't married to anyone else, though--still, something seems off.

We need more info, sadly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On September 9, 2018 at 10:47 PM, The First Bloodrider said:

It's an interesting theory.  I want to list some possibilities.

  1. Your explanation for why the fight happened and why it happened at that location is good.  I want to give another theory and see what you think.  The fight happened because the war never ended for the Kingsguard.  The surrender of the Tyrells meant nothing to their way of understanding their vows.  Here was the enemy of their king.  It's their job to fight the enemy.  To avenge their Aerys because their service didn't end with the death of their king.   Making peace with the enemy of their king is not an option.   A man of honor like Ned Stark would understand this and even respect them for it.

My apologies for the delay.

On the above--that's basically @Black Crow's Ronin theory, too. And I do think Ned would somewhat respect that.

Right now, I'm thinking they still had a mission--as do the brotherhood without banners when they are confronted by the Hound. It may be a completely hopeless mission, but they hold to it. And I think Ned would likely somewhat respect that, too.

On September 9, 2018 at 10:47 PM, The First Bloodrider said:

Ned doesn't have any hate for Rhaegar because the man didn't touch his sister.  There was a passage in the book from Ned or maybe Jaime where the pov character didn't think Rhaegar was the kind of man to visit a brothel.  That should be a clue to us that Rhaegar was faithful to his wife.  A man who fools around is the kind who would go to a brothel.

On the bolded--agreed. And it's Ned's POV on Rhaegar and brothels--it may mean faithful. Might also mean he had other paramours rather than prostitutes.

On September 9, 2018 at 10:47 PM, The First Bloodrider said:

Ned's promise to Lyanna.  Nothing more than to take care of her son, whoever his father might be.  She was unmarried and broke her engagement to Robert.  Ned took on the dishonor to keep her reputation pure.  Ned, the dutiful brother who handled the messes left by Brandon and Lyanna.  

I can buy this--but she's also afraid of something: when Ned gives her his promise, the fear goes out of her eyes. Seems like more was up than just her reputation. Plus, Ned hears/thinks of Lyanna's "promise me" when he hears Sansa plead for Lady's life--I think Lyanna thought someone's life was at stake: her child's. 

But Ned is the dutiful brother who cleans up their messes--fortunately, he does love Jon.

On September 9, 2018 at 10:47 PM, The First Bloodrider said:

Who was born at the tower of joy?  I don't think it was Daenerys.  She has to be Targaryen on both sides.  Remember the woods witch? Her prophecy says a future child has to come from the union of Targaryen to another Targaryen.  I believe that is the meaning of having to come from the line of Aerys AND Rhaella.  It's not enough for the child to be a Targaryen.  Aerys could have married any woman and their child would have been a legitimate Targaryen.  But the instructions were specific.  The line had to be pure.  Rhaegar and Viserys are dead.  So that only leaves Daenerys.  She is the special child.  Special to a Targaryen means having to do with dragons.

Actually, the prophecy says the Prince that was Promised will come "of their line"--so, not innately one of their children. Can be their children's children--I think. And no mention of being pure Targaryen--just coming of Rhaella and Aerys' "line"--makes their kids and grandkids sound like a brand of sneakers. . .. 

Plus, if the union of two Targaryens made the difference--there has been a lot of incest in the Targ line. Seems like that's not the "magic formula"--if a "magic formula" was needed.

But I don't think Dany was born at the tower of joy, either. 

On September 9, 2018 at 10:47 PM, The First Bloodrider said:

Who got Lyanna pregnant?  I like the suggestion above mine.  Ser Arthur Dayne.  Do we think a character that had less than one page is going to be the sword of the morning?  It's not Ned Dayne.  

:agree:

On September 9, 2018 at 10:47 PM, The First Bloodrider said:
  • Daenerys is the child of Aerys and Rhaella, born on Dragonstone 9 months after the fight at the tower of joy.

Very possible. Given that 80% of Rhaella's children don't make it past their first children, I think there's a good chance the baby born on Dragonstone didn't live long after the flight from Dragonstone. I think the current "Dany" is a changeling.  But I know that's controversial enough to label my own theory a crackpot.

On September 9, 2018 at 10:47 PM, The First Bloodrider said:

Ashara killed herself because Ned dumped her for Catelyn.  Ned needed to tell her in person.  He returned the sword.  This is where he hired Wylla the maid.  

Why need to tell her in person months and months afterwards? 

On September 9, 2018 at 10:47 PM, The First Bloodrider said:

Brandon took advantage of Ashara at Harrenhal.  I believe the daughter is alive.  Ashara's story mirror that of Barbrey Dustin.  They were both smitten with Brandon.  They lost him but Ned came along in their lives.  Ned was taken away from them because he had to marry Catelyn.  What's the consolation prize?  The sword for Ashara.  The red stallion for Barbrey.  Both brought by Ned.  Ned could have taken the sword for himself by right of victory.  But he didn't.  He gave it back to the family instead of keeping the trophy.

I'm liking this set of potential analogies a lot.

Am wondering, though, if it fits with a slightly larger pattern: we also have Lysa's love for Baelish, longing for him even years afterwards.

Like Barbery had known the Starks for years--close proximity and childhood crush turned into lust and love.

If (and it's a big if) that it the analogy, Ashara would need someone she might have seen earlier on--before Harrenhal. Maybe she fell for her brother's best friend????

 But, as with Barbery, Rhaegar married a lady slightly higher on the social scale--the Martells rule Dorne like the Tullys rule the Riverlands. Leaving both Ashara and Barbery longing for the man they lost? Like Lysa, too.

Maybe.

On September 9, 2018 at 10:47 PM, The First Bloodrider said:

Lyanna and Robb made promises to win over an ally.  They both break that promise.  The Baratheons required payment in advance.  The Freys took Robb at his word before taking payment.  Robert's friendship with Ned and Brandon may weather the storm of Lyanna's broken promise but Stannis is not going to take that kind of betrayal easily.  Ned had every reason to let the lie stand, the lie that Lyanna was kidnapped.  Stannis will not forgive this insult.  Just think how badly it would make the Starks look if word ever got out that the daughter they went to war to rescue actually ran away of her own free will.  It's a scandal.  

Maybe--but once she's dead, is there really much point worrying about that? Given all the rest that happened?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On September 10, 2018 at 3:20 AM, SFDanny said:

We have a original Bael-ish figure in Bael the Bard, yet he doesn't take the Stark maid to a run down unnamed tower. He takes his lovely maiden to the secret ways under Winterfell itself and hides with her, and leaving her with child. Should we ignore this story because it doesn't fit the outcome you want? Isn't Martin telegraphing through this old tale Lyanna's story? No, I don't think he is, but he does leave us with some clues to where the story might go. Including the importance of those hidden ways underground. Bael's Stark maiden is not Lyanna. No matter how much they both love winter roses. And Sansa's story is not Lyanna's even if they both have rundown towers in them.

No--my point was the same as your bolded: he's leaving us clues with specific markers. 

The Stolen Stark Maids are not identical, as you say. But Martin has tied them to each other--Arya (looks and acts like Lyanna); Sansa (Robert proposes her marriage to Joff, expressly saying Sansa can fulfill the destiny Lyanna couldn't--and Ned thinks of Lyanna's cries when Sansa begs for Lady); and Jon (his ties to Lyanna is more implied than Sansa and Arya's--but still seems likely.) 

And we have very few specifics on what actually happened to Lyanna, but we do have some markers: the tower, the KG's confrontation with Ned; the room smelling of blood and roses; promise me; etc. 

So, when we see one of those markers, seems like we should pay attention to how the scenario goes, especially if we get similarities in the scenarios.

IE: Sansa and Jon both end up with Bael/Rhaegar figures--but neither is the original mission; neither falls romantically for the Bael/Rhaegar figure, and both are kept as hostages in a larger plan.

Arya ends up with an echo of Rhaegar's KG, but she, too, is never the original mission. She's kept as a hostage in part of a larger plan. 

And the Bael maid? She, too, is taken as a way to stick it to her father. A "hostage" as part of a larger plan.

The markers of the few things we know about Lyanna are just that--markers. But the trends of what keep happening with the Stark maids seems worth paying attention to.

So, when we see something tied to Lyanna--a Stark maid taken by a Bael figure to a rundown tower with a joke/pet name--seems like we should pay extra attention to what actually happens there.

On September 10, 2018 at 3:20 AM, SFDanny said:

Nor is Dunk a Ser Arthur figure, although they have some similarities. Ser Arthur is the quintessential noble knight. He is the best swordsmen and the greatest fighter of his age. Ser Arthur is born into his title, Sword of the Morning, as well as earning it. Ser Duncan the Tall is none of these things. At least as we know him in the novellas we have to this point. He is a bastard child of the slums who believes to his core in the principles of knighthood as he was taught them by a hedge knight. There are vitally important similarities between the two, but they are not the same. In a effort to find things that link them, don't take away what makes them unique.

Agreed--but they are both considered exemplary knights.

And Dunk's tale continually references that falling star. In the novels, the falling star comes up rarely--references the Dawn sword or a great man who fell. That fallen star, it's tie to the Daynes--really seems like a symbolic marker.

On September 10, 2018 at 3:20 AM, SFDanny said:

The most important similarity is in their deaths. Both die protecting innocents, but not just any innocents. They die protecting children of prophecy - father and son. Unless we go with your story in which we rob them of this thing in common.

Oh! No--I think Arthur did die in defense of a "child of prophecy"--of Rhaegar's child. Just not via Lyanna.

I'm going to break up my response to you because I yammered so much at the start that it's getting too long.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On September 10, 2018 at 3:20 AM, SFDanny said:

All evidence to the contrary. I don't need to rehash old arguments, but the evidence points to Lyanna being there, and dying there in Ned's arms, as well as at least one other unknown soul who, along with Howland Reed, finds Ned with Lyanna's lifeless body. 

Evidence points to this being a likely scenario--her dying in the tower--but it isn't set. The Ned and Howland stuff is definitely set.

And when Martin takes the time to show us another Stark maid, closely related symbolically to Lyanna, at a rundown tower with a joke name in the middle of nowhere--seems like he might be telling us what actually did happen at the tower vs. just making us fill in gaps.

On September 10, 2018 at 3:20 AM, SFDanny said:

If Lyanna is at Starfall, which we have no evidence for, why do the people of Starfall think Wylla is Jon's mom? Or does Lyanna not die in childbirth? What then are her promises she extracts from Ned on her deathbed? Why is it that Jon shows up first in rumor as Wylla's child in Starfall, and then as Ashara's child when Ned leaves Starfall?

All key questions that clearly need answering. All I can do is make my best current guesses.

And I do think Lyanna dies in childbirth--of Jon. Plus I do think there are suggestions that Lyanna went to Starfall--IE: Sansa's leaving the tower and going to the castle with white towers where a woman falls to her death. It's indirect, like the hints that Ned isn't Jon's father are indirect. Or the hints that Lysa and Baelish have motive to frame the Lannisters are indirect--but it is there.

As for the Wylla--we've got both Sansa and Arya hiding under aliases--Arya hides under a lot of them. Have been wondering if Wylla was an alias for Lyanna--and if the story of her stay got slowly diluted/redirected over time.

ETA: But the points you raise above will need to be made to fit somehow--or this theory won't work.

Quote

Of course the similarities stop between Lyanna and Sansa when they leave their rundown towers. Sansa hasn't died in the Eyrie. Nor have we any duels schedule for Baelish's lonely tower.

Agreed--the tower is just one marker. Like the KG conversation is just one marker. Or Mance being a Bael the Bard fanboy and having a red and black cloak are markers. 

I think Martin's giving us pieces of the scenarios, not all of Lyanna's backstory in one go.

On September 10, 2018 at 3:20 AM, SFDanny said:

I think you miss the large differences in the two fights. Dunk knows he faces overwhelming odds against him and uses the challenge to a duel as a way of giving his side a chance. He does so at great personal risk, but it is the only way they can survive. Hightower, Dayne, and Whent, choose to abandon the tower's defenses that would give them a great advantage over Ned's seven for other reasons. Either they believe in the honor of the duel over that of killing enemies as the try to breach the tower walls thereby sacrificing their tactical advantage, or they have a reason to need the conflict over quickly, such as a dying woman and her newborn son inside the tower. 

Or, the KG know there's no way they can win and left the people they were defending at a safe place, went to meet the part of the overwhelming force at an isolated location.

The KG have lost--they may hope they can take out Ned and Co. and but more time to get away. May hope something else. But they could have done as Dunk did--leave the ground you want to defend and meet a smaller part of the overwhelming force at a prearranged locale.

Quote

By the way, when is there a Lyanna figure in Dunk's tower? The Red Widow is never there in the story.

No--but Dunk is sworn to defend Osgrey and his interests--and thinks the cause is hopeless, but fights on. Not a woman, but a sworn mission.

On September 10, 2018 at 3:20 AM, SFDanny said:

And that point is both the poverty of Petyr's origins, and the reality of Lysa's obsession with Petyr. It is the explanation of both of their critical backstories. Littlefinger always trying to scheme his way out of his humble background's limitations, and Lysa's reason for killing Jon Arryn and lying to her sister to start Littlefinger's war and save his ass.

Absolutely! Just as the brotherhood have their own story and point. And Mance has his own reasons for being a Bael the Bard fanboy and his red cloak--and running a rebellion, etc.

But the moments also tie into key facts about Stolen Stark Maids. Martin could have chosen a lot of other ways to show the above about Baelish's backstory--a rundown house/hovel. A monologue on the ship. A memento he's kept. Showing Sansa the scar Brandon gave him. Lots of things.

Martin chose an rundown tower with a joke name--one of the few details we know about Lyanna's situation. Really seems like a marker.

Quote

I'll leave it there, Sly Wren. Some thoughts on the subject written too late at night for me. Good night.

Take care and I hope you slept well, friend.

Edited by Sly Wren
I phrased part of my answer in an idiotic manner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On September 10, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I have not read this anywhere before. Very interesting.

:cheers: Though, as I say at the start, a lot of this got started in convos with other posters.

On September 10, 2018 at 8:44 AM, SirArthur said:

I think most of heresy could agree with this summary. :commie:

We may have other details and different views on some aspects, but overall it fits. 

Yup! Black Crow's ronin theory first got me asking questions about the tower.

On September 10, 2018 at 12:00 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Definitely an interesting point about the Tower. I would laugh if Lyanna actually ran to become a faceless man or is Septa Lemore hahaha 

Yes--that should make her "dying" a difficult move. 

Unless she is also an Other.:devil:

On September 10, 2018 at 5:10 PM, Targaryen Restoration said:

Nice work.   

:cheers:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On September 10, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

Love the two-part OP, @Sly Wren. My kind of thread, with lots of citations of evidence from the books and an understanding of the "echoes" that GRRM uses to provide a trail of clues before unveiling what appear to be major plot twists. Those echoes are not always a direct, one-to-one match of parallels between characters but often include surrounding details that cover the major similarities.

:cheers: Though I don't think I'm likely to have interpreted the "echoes" all correctly, I do think Martin loves indirect evidence after misdirecting us.

On September 10, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

Other things make more sense (such as Brienne as a maid) when I read that. As they flee the scene of Renly's death, Brienne and Catelyn have a discussion about the similarity between childbirth for women and combat - both involve a lot of blood and a risk of death. Many threads and comments in this forum assume that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but I have not seen much discussion that says she continued to act as a warrior after the tournament. I think GRRM is giving us a number of women warriors whose combat is not seen or acknowledged by other POV characters - we see Brienne and Arya and Maege Mormont as warriors, but assume that all of the other lovely young and old women are passive vessels, waiting for the next betrothal to advance their families in the game of thrones. It shocks us when Dany uses her hidden linguistic skills and her command of her dragon to Kraznys mo Nakloz but maybe we do start to think of Dany as more than just a royal heiress at this point. I think this is just one example, and there is more going on than the reader suspects regarding feminine wiles and willingness to fight.

I questioned some time ago whether Ned's memory of Lyanna's bed of blood necessarily meant that Lyanna had just given birth. Given the Knight of the Laughing Tree theories, as well as the points developed in this thread about Lyanna as a collateral figure in Rhaegar and Ashara's arc, I wonder whether she set out from Winterfell because she wanted to join Rhaegar's bannermen? She did not want to marry Robert and maybe her antipathy toward him included wanting to help defeat him in battle.

If the Brienne / Ashara comparison is on target, another parallel might be Ashara as Catelyn (a mother trying to protect her child / children) and Lyanna as Brienne, a sworn sword who pledges her leal service to a highborn lady. Ser Barristan tells us that Ashara turned to "Stark" instead of him. We assume she turned to Brandon or Ned, and that one of those Stark brothers also dishonored her. But what if she saw Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree and turned to Lyanna for protection? Ashara was a stunningly beautiful woman and may have been tired of men hitting on her all the time, especially if she already had a lover and/or a baby or pregnancy she was worried about. Maybe she turned to Lyanna as the safest "true knight" to protect her interests. (Maybe Ned had the sword Dawn because Ashara loaned it to Lyanna, not because Ned slayed Arthur Dayne.)

Very interesting--I think @superunknown5  once posited that Ashara might have been the knight of the laughing tree. And we do have a tradition of Dornish women as fighters in the Sand Snakes. And I have seen others pose the option that "turning to Stark" might have been Lyanna--I think that's one of @PrettyPig's theories. 

As for Lyanna as the knightly protector--the big obstacle I see is Ned's saying Rickard didn't let Lyanna have a sword. Brienne, Maege, the Sand Snakes, Asha Greyjoy, Arya--female fighters in Martinlandia get a lot of training. We're specifically told Lyanna didn't get sword training. Her protective tendencies are clear--but without training. . . . unless Rickard changed him mind after Ned left for the Vale and Ned just never knew about it, seems unlikely she could be an effective sworn sword. . . 

As for lending the sword Dawn--if Lyanna did have training, she's still not presented as particularly tall and Dawn is a greatsword. Plus, Martin's said flat out that Dawn is only bestowed on members of House Dayne by the family. . . really seems like they keep to that. . . so far.

But the idea of a relationship between Ashara and Lyanna--really seems like that's an option. And I like the idea of Ashara as fighter/warrior. Could be very interesting.

On September 10, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

 For instance, Red Ronnet Connington gives Brienne a rose and says, "That's all you'll ever get from me." This might confirm your idea that Rhaegar giving winter roses to Lyanna was not a gesture to launch a love affair, but a token of farewell. Brienne hates roses from that day forward.

Nice catch! Even fits with Loras, covered in blue flowers, giving Sansa a rose that has no romantic intent. Cannington is just more straightforward.

On September 10, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

I think Ashara's first "dance" was with her brother.

:agree:

On September 10, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

I think GRRM also wants us to make a connection between House Dayne and House Payne. Aside from the rhyming surnames, both houses have purple and white sigils.

Nice catch! As for the swords--I like the silver, but I also wonder about the theories that Ice is a stand-in for the original Dawn, a trace of the sword that was taken from the Night's King to the south for safekeeping.

Ilyn Payne kills Ned with Ice. There's even talk that he should be given Ice, though he's given the gaudy sword instead. Whereas Ned and Howland kill Arthur--possibly with Arthur's own sword. But Ned takes the sword home. The Paynes in this case would be a  . . . .wrong-acting version of the Starks and the Daynes. Maybe even an echo of the Night's King.

But I'll stop now before I go too far down this rabbit hole.

On September 10, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

Another important fall from a tower occurs when Jaime pushes Bran, of course. This occurs to hide a forbidden, incestuous, treasonous love affair in an ancient building. Does the old keep at Winterfell seem like a good parallel for the Baelish Drearfort? It would not surprise me at all if others were aware of Jaime and Cersei having sex in that old building, just as everyone in the room with Sansa could hear Lysa and Petyr having sex in the old tower at The Fingers. Keep in mind, Petyr was a foster brother of sorts for both Catelyn and Lysa long before he became Lysa's husband. This brother / sister sex motif might be another clue for us about Ashara's baby daddy.

Very interesting! Huh--I'd been thinking that the tower was a tower of joy for Rhaegar and a partner. But are you thinking he might also have called it that because of someone else's joy?

If so. . .Jaime might be really, really thrown if this was true of Arthur.

That said--seems like there should be more of a hint of it. So far, we keep seeing sworn brothers seduced by women--but only Jaime by his sister. Jon, Lewyn, Arys Oakheart--not seduced by sisters. Closest we may get is Jon's thinking Ygritte reminds him of Arya. . . 

I'm going to break up my post to you because this is getting long and unwieldy.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On September 10, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

Pretty complicated, but I feel like there is a parallel or echo here, although clearly not an exact one-to-one parallel between your analysis of the Hound / BWB confrontation and the Ned / Kingsguard conflict.

Interesting--especially the revival. But I'm not sure I'm following you on what this potential echo might be telling us--any chance you'd be willing to explain a bit further?

On September 10, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

I suspect there is also parallel material in what little we know of the Kingswood Brotherhood and their attack on Rhaegar's wife, Elia. The Kingswood Brotherhood was similar to the Brotherhood Without Banners in some ways. It was founded by a Toyne, whose house came into conflict with the Targaryens when an ancestor had an affair with Aegon IV's mistress, Bethany Bracken. So that brings us back to the Blackwood / Bracken conflict with is of a piece with the Blackfyre rebellions and the Bloodraven / Bittersteel feud.

Oh, yes--I've been wondering what to do with the Kingswood Brotherhood's attack on Elia for a while. 

My current crackpot pet theory is that it was an attempt to get rid of Elia so Tywin could marry Cersei to Rhaegar--though the two brotherhoods do have strong echoes of each other, the Smiling Knight and Beric, the Lightning Lord/Scarecrow, are very different men. The attack on Elia seems completely insane--unless they thought they had a backer--not unlike the Brave Companions with Tywin. Or even the Freys with Tywin.

But something is up with the Kingswood brotherhood and all of the ties you mentioned.

On September 10, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

In the parallel story involving Ashara, the singer / harp player would be Rhaegar. If the Merillion / Rhaegar parallel is direct, then he was not responsible for the death of Ashara (or Lyanna?) but was wrongly blamed. The real killer would be the Baelish parallel figure. Who traveled with Rhaegar and might be parallel to Baelish?

Ah! Yes-- @Lady Dyanna and I slogged through that scene and tried like hell to pin down who might be whom. I agree that Rhaegar, like Merillion, is a singer who, while not remotely "innocent", gets blamed for stuff he didn't do.

The Baelish plotter? My best guess right now is that is Tywin--who started/plotted the war to begin with. With Rhaegar as willing participant--until it went wrong and Tywin used Rhaegar as a scapegoat. Not traveling with Rhaegar, but still ultimately responsible.

But this theory is subject to change at any moment.

On September 10, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

Another angle to explore: Many people think Septa Lemore might be Ashara Dayne in disguise. I'm not 100% sold on this, but I do think GRRM wants us to compare Ashara and Lemore. I also think Septa Mordane, who supervised the needlework at Winterfell, is a good candidate for Ashara in disguise. Septa Lemore helps Tyrion with needlework on the Shy Maid when Connington tells him to sew himself a new outfit out of children's clothes provided by Ilyrio. The needlework connection brings us back to women warriors because of the name of Arya's sword. Mordane's other big scene is introducing Sansa to Petyr Baelish at the  Hand's Tourney

Very interesting. . . I'll need to give this one some time to mull over in my head, but very interesting. . . One issue: Ashara's beauty and eyes: seems like there's no trace of this in Mordane. . .  

On September 10, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

Once you start following these symbolism threads, you can keep going and going and going.

Amen! It's one reason why I'm wary--but it's hard to "unsee" things.

On September 10, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

Was one of the Martell brothers at Harrenhal? Which other Dornishmen might be involved in dishonoring Ashara? (The red snake might also tie back into the "shit for honor" symbolism because of possible wordplay on "viper" and "privy".)

Interesting--Oberyn does say he and Elia visited Starfall on their "look for potential marriage partners" tour.

As gorgeous as Ashara is reputed to be, Oberyn may have been tempted. . . 

On September 10, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

The other possible wordplay I see is that the word "Wall" in English is "Wand" in German. I think our bastard at the Wall is going to wield the sword Dawn (= Wand). It's possible that Jon Snow is the son of either Ashara or Arthur Dayne. Or both.

Agreed--and interesting potential wordplay.

On September 10, 2018 at 11:04 AM, Seams said:

(I'm still holding out the possibility that he is the son of Rhaegar and Ashara or Rhaegar and Lyanna - the Wall is described as being a snake on one side and a sword on the other side. The two sides meet at Castle Black and the tunnel under the Wall. I think the snake could be a symbolic dragon and the sword could symbolize Dawn or maybe the Stark sword, Ice. Jon Snow is the point where the two sides meet.)

Nice! I'm still holding out hope that Jon is Ned's--because I think the kid's been through enough to have to be told otherwise. 

And I like the potential symbolism--I've also thought of snake as the danger of magic--the Wall as being a sword without a hilt, only a snake.

I need to mull over some of your other ideas--very, very interesting!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/9/2018 at 11:47 PM, The First Bloodrider said:

Ned doesn't have any hate for Rhaegar because the man didn't touch his sister.  There was a passage in the book from Ned or maybe Jaime where the pov character didn't think Rhaegar was the kind of man to visit a brothel.  That should be a clue to us that Rhaegar was faithful to his wife.  A man who fools around is the kind who would go to a brothel. 

Stannis also doesn't seem like the kind of man to go to a brothel, but he does cheat on his wife with Melisandre.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On September 10, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Nevets said:

Many problems with this.

1.  What is Lyanna;s role in all this?  If she isn't Rhaegar's paramour, then what is her purpose?  And why did he take her? 

Don't know for sure, but my best guess would be what we see in Jon, Arya, and Sansa--useful hostages for the plans of their "keepers"--Mance (full of Rhaegar/ Bael imagery) holds Jon for useful info. Arya is held by the brotherhood without banners (with their 3KG reference)--because they think she'll bring money they need for their cause. Not fully convinced we know Baelish's endgame--but Sansa seems not to be the main purpose.

If Rhaegar found/ended up with Lyanna and Mance and the Brotherhood end up with Jon and Arya--could see him as thinking holding onto her might help him broker peace after the war.

On September 10, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Nevets said:

2.  We have no evidence of a romantic connection between Ashara and Rhaegar.  The only woman Rhaegar has been linked to (other than his wife) is Lyanna.  The only man Ashara has been linked to is Ned.  And given that Ashara was his wife's handmaid, if GRRM wanted to suggest a romantic link, it wouldn't be difficult.

Agreed--though Martin has a track record  of making his hints indirect. IE: the evidence that Ned isn't Jon's father is indirect. The evidence that Baelish and Lysa framed the Lannisters is really indirect, until Lysa's confession.

We have Dany being described as looking like Ashara's daughter. And Rhaegar looking into a doorway when he says, "there must be one more"--who would be in the doorway at Dragonstone with him and Elia? Plus a few more things--but I fully admit it's indirect at best.

On September 10, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Nevets said:

3.  Lysa did not jump from the moon door - and no one believes that she did.  Littlefinger and Sansa accuse Marillion of murdering her out of jealousy over her marriage to Baelish.  No suggestion of suicide.  And whatever might have happened to Ashara, nobody has suggested she was murdered.

Right--but it's a fall from a tower and a false story is told. Is Ashara dead? There's some evidence she isn't. If so--a false story was told, as with Lysa. And all due to the woman being distraught over a lost love and a lost child. In the only two known castles with white towers in the novels. 

On September 10, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Nevets said:

4.  Why are the KG protecting Lyanna?  And from whom.  And who do you think Jon's parents are, anyway.  Come to think of it, who is Ashara's child?  Not Jon; we know that one of his parents was a Stark.

If my theory is right, they aren't protecting Lyanna--any more than the brotherhood without banners is "protecting" Arya. She's a hostage. 

If so, I think the KG have another mission.

On September 10, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Nevets said:

5.  The Tower of Joy is 200-300 miles from Starfall.  Why are the KG going all that distance, and why don't they bring reinforcements?  

They (hypothetically) go that far for the same reason Dunk does--they know they can't win against the entire superior force. So they meet a small contingency at a prearranged location.

As for why no reinforcements--they may believe they can't win--as Dunk seems to think.

They may want to leave the reinforcements to get whomever they are actually guarding away if they fail at the tower meeting/fight. 

And Starfall may have said--we won't risk any fighters. If the first comes here, we'll yield. 

Or other scenarios. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/9/2018 at 11:06 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

 

This is a lot to take in.  I will have to take the time to give your ideas a fair analysis.  I am intrigued.  

Aegon is the more likely baby.  Dany was yet to be born.  

I have always thought Lyanna ran away from home and Rhaegar was only giving her shelter because he had motives of his own.  He stymied Rickard Stark's Southron Ambitions.  This is similar to what the Tyrells did with Sansa.  They had their own motives when they used Sansa against Joffrey.  Rhaegar was hiding Lyanna to thwart Robert and Rickard from building their alliance against the Targaryens.  A pregnant Lyanna could never be used as the glue to hold southron ambitions together.  My guess is Arthur slept with Lyanna.  Arthur was breaking his vows of celibacy in order to protect King Aerys.  A soiled Lyanna Stark could never become a part of Rickard's plotting.  Given what we know of Lyanna, she is not the kind who would appreciate being used by her father.  An agreement was made between Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Arthur.  Lyanna gets to avoid Robert, Arthur gets to save King Aerys, and Rhaegar gets to save the Targaryen family.  

Ashara's reaction to the news is not typical for a sister mourning a brother's death.  It is the reaction of a lover mourning her man's death.  If Rhaegar and Ashara were lovers, it would help explain his behavior at the tourney.  His wife was there.  His lover was there.  Who to give the crown of roses to?  A third person.  In his case, the girl who masqueraded as the knight of the laughing tree, the real winner of the tourney.  

I would also like to add the similarity to the agreement between the Starks and the Freys.  Arya was to be used to help bond the two houses together.  The Starks broke their side of the agreement in both cases.  Lyanna ran away.  Robb broke his promise and got Arya off the table.  Ned was able to hide the truth.  He protected his family honor and spared Robert's feelings.  He has a pattern of sparing Robert from pain.  

Dig this. Perhaps Ashara's whole "dishonoring" and "turned to Stark" had to do with Lyanna...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Stannis also doesn't seem like the kind of man to go to a brothel, but he does cheat on his wife with Melisandre.

:agree:

Yup.

I've been thinking for a while that Stannis is potentially instructive on Rhaegar, too.

Targaryen descendant; following a prophecy; Rhaegar has a cult of the three headed dragon while Stannis has the fiery heart thing; believing they are the rightful rulers over a corrupt family member; willing to kill family members to gain the throne; wives unable to give more children, but seem to believe in the "cult" . . . 

If this holds, who is the Melisandre figure? My crackpot money is on Ashara, whom I think is riding as Quaithe. A true believer and potential lover of Rhaegar. . . .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Don't know for sure, but my best guess would be what we see in Jon, Arya, and Sansa--useful hostages for the plans of their "keepers"--Mance (full of Rhaegar/ Bael imagery) holds Jon for useful info. Arya is held by the brotherhood without banners (with their 3KG reference)--because they think she'll bring money they need for their cause. Not fully convinced we know Baelish's endgame--but Sansa seems not to be the main purpose.

If Rhaegar found/ended up with Lyanna and Mance and the Brotherhood end up with Jon and Arya--could see him as thinking holding onto her might help him broker peace after the war.

Huh?  Not sure what you mean about Mance and Jon.  As for Arya, she wound up with the BwB purely by accident, unlike Lyanna, who Rhaegar appears to have taken deliberately.

As for Sansa, I think she is at the core of Baelish's plans.  It is clear that he was obsessed with Catelyn.  It appears that he has transferred that obsession to her look-alike daughter.  While he has no immediate plans for wedding and bedding her, I firmly believe that that is his end goal with her.  He also regards her as his protégé, in addition to future lover/wife.

It is worth noting that Sansa is no longer at the Eyrie.  She is instead at the Bloody Gate, one of the main entrances to the Vale.  Hmmm.  Kind of like Prince's Pass (where the Tower of Joy is located) is an entrance to Dorne.

Might I suggest a rescue of a Stark maiden by a sibling accompanied by 6 companions.  

Arya, Brienne and five companions (plenty of candidates) get a tip and go to rescue her sister.  Definite echoes of Ned and Lyanna.  Don't see any real fighting, though.  More of a battle of wits and words than one of steel.

Note:  I do not actually believe that any of this will necessarily happen, but I think it more likely and makes more sense than anything I've seen here.:D

6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

If my theory is right, they aren't protecting Lyanna--any more than the brotherhood without banners is "protecting" Arya. She's a hostage. 

If so, I think the KG have another mission.

So, what is it?  And, by the way, who are Jon's parents, anyway?

6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

They (hypothetically) go that far for the same reason Dunk does--they know they can't win against the entire superior force. So they meet a small contingency at a prearranged location.

As for why no reinforcements--they may believe they can't win--as Dunk seems to think.

They may want to leave the reinforcements to get whomever they are actually guarding away if they fail at the tower meeting/fight. 

And Starfall may have said--we won't risk any fighters. If the first comes here, we'll yield. 

Or other scenarios. 

Except, they damn near won, so it clearly wasn't hopeless.  Four or five others, and they could have easily wiped Ned and his friends out, and barely broken a sweat. 

Edited by Nevets

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

 

Have you looked to the older legends as far as Baelish's actions? Bride Stealing, Tourneys, etc.

We have the legend of Durran God's Grief stealing the daughter of the Gods and angering them, who attack him on his wedding night. Durran is linked to Bran the Builder when Bran was young. Bran the Builder is linked to Bloody Brandon who may be his father. Bloody Brandon is a son of Garth the Green. Meaning Brandon the Builders dad may likely have been an age with Durran. This is important, as Bran the Builders Grandfather, Garth the Green then threw the first Tourney in Westeros. 

At this first tourney, Argoth Stone-skin wins, winning Maris the Maid as his bride, daughter of Garth the Green, and Bran the Builders aunt. Who is taken by Uthor of the Hightower and wedded.

So once again, during the same rough time period, we have another daughter of the Gods being taken. Im sure Garth the Green wasn't too pleased either. This isn't the only legend involving some one getting a bride from the gods either. 

Quote

Garth was the High King of the First Men, it is written; it was he who led them out of the east and across the land bridge to Westeros. Yet other tales would have us believe that he preceded the arrival of the First Men by thousands of years, making him not only the First Man in Westeros, but the only man, wandering the length and breadth of the land alone and treating with the giants and the children of the forest. Some even say he was a god.

Maris and Uthor's children would go on to form the Maesters also. Urrigon and Peremore would have lived in the time of Garth II Gardener for reference, and the time of Bran the Builder. Bran the Builder who is linked to the end of the Long Night by way of building the Wall.

Garth II Gardener means House Gardener has obviously been formed by this point. I bring this up due to somethings said about House Gardener and some of it's heroes, in accordance to things like Maesters being a sign of Valyria with their spelling. 

Quote

Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients—claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands

Then

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Age of Heroes

singers number Serwyn of the Mirror Shield as one of the Kingsguard—some long dead First Man , a knight who follows the Seven and guards the Targaryen kings

 

Targaryen kings? Fighting dragon Urrax and saving Daeryssa from a giant

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: The Gardener Kings

In those centuries of trial and tumult, the Reach produced many a fearless warrior. From that day to this, the singers have celebrated the deeds of knights like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davos the Dragonslayer, Roland of the Horn, and the Knight Without Armor—and the legendary kings who led them, among them Garth V (Hammer of the Dornish), Gwayne I (the Gallant), Gyles I (the Woe), Gareth II (the Grim), Garth VI (the Morningstar), and Gordan I (Grey-Eyes).

We are repeatedly given hints that the Gardeners are Valyrians.(Or Pre-Valyrians)

Daughters of the god's being stolen? God's?
 

Quote

The Princess and the Queen

such feelings were muted upon Dragonstone, where Targaryens were rightly regarded as being closer to gods than the common run of men. Here, brides thus blessed upon their wedding nights were envied, and the children born of such unions were esteemed above all others, for the Lords of Dragonstone oft celebrated the birth of such with lavish gifts of gold and silk and land to the mother.

 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Garth the green God on Earth                                                          

Garth Gardener            Maris = Uthor Hightower   Bloody Brandon   Durran God’s Grief     Grey King?

                            (Bloodstone Emperor before, during this time. Huzhor Amai and Azor Ahai also?)

Garth II          Urrigon and Peremore Hightower (Maesters)        Bran Builder     

                                            Age of the Long Night

Garth III                                                                                                                    first ironborn king  Urras GreyIron?

                                                                                                                                                                             Regnar Drumm.

Garth V Hammer of the Dornish       

 

Gwayne I The Gallant                                         King Harrag Hoare vs   King Theon Stark vs Andals

                                                                                        King Samwell Dayne The Starfire  (Andals in Riverlands & Vale?)

                                                                                         Qhored the Cruel  - kills Bernar II Justman, ending House.

Gyles I the Woe                              *Samwell, Qhored, Glyes within a the same century sack Old Town.

                                                          King Othos III Hightower builds walls of Old Town.

 

-----------------------------End of Slavery on Main Land Westeros---------------------------------------------------

 

Mery III – Brings Arbor into the Reach                                                                                                   Balon V Greyjoy

Garland II- Wed Lymond Hightower’s daughter bringing Old Town into Reach.       Erich V Harlaw

 

Gareth II the Grim                              slain by Harron Harlaw son of Erich V Harlaw

                                                                               Within 50 years Joron I Blacktyde            *Ironborn decline.

Garth VI MorningStar – killed by Ironborn                                                     Urragon III GreyIron

                                                                                                                                                    Urathon Goodbrother

Gordon I Grey Eyes                                                                                                        Torgon GreyIron

                                                                                                                                                    Urragon IV GreyIron

                                                                                                                                                   Urron Redhand

-----------------------------End of Driftwood kings and start of GreyIron dynasty.--------------------------------

 

 

Kings that Serwyn served are the Bolded Green Gardener names. So you can roughly see how they fit into some of the surrounding events.

This is a rough time tree of events. Old Town attacked as kings and before wall made, Old Town as Lords under Gardeners, Revival of slavery to put Iron Born to rebuilding Old Town indicating it was given up on main land westeros around that time or before, but after Old Town was sacked and sold as slaves by the Gardeners. Qhored linked to sacking Old Town within 100 year span Old Town was sacked three times, by Dayne and Gardener also.Blood stone linked to starting Long Night, Bran Builder to helping during it's end, etc. 

Note that the last few Iron born kings dont necessarily line up with the Gardener kings across from them, just that the Iron Born's decline is mostly linked to those times, then it's mentioned that the final nail was Urragon and the subsequent events with Urathon and Torgon and such finally ending the Driftwood Kings. Multiple accounts line the Andals up when they appear on list, can't help that. 

Edit- Lord Lymond Hightower was the one to set the Iron born to slavery to rebuild Old Town.

 

Alternate Time line in accordance with the above time line.

Spoiler

 

From another thread i did trying to figure out when Bael possibly existed, but excluded from this list altogether.

2700Bc  - Blackwoods vs Bracken feud begins during the Age of Hereos  Gendel and Gorne 

 

 

1700 Bc – Dawn Forged to fight the Long Night.  . Joramun teams up with Brandon the Breaker against the Night King? Or the Century afer? . Andal Invasion of Westeros . Inner Walls and only defense of Winterfell built . Abandonment of Zamettar, by Ghis or Valyria .

1436 Bc- Scouring of Lorath by Valyria 

1336 Bc- Boash on Lorath 

 

1000 Bc- Starry Sept built in Old Town after Andal Conquest , Glass Candles brought to Old Town from Valyria , Falcon Crown first worn by Artys Arryn I forged 

950 Bc- Start of Rhoynish Wars with Valyria 

700 Bc- The Horned Lord passes the Wall using magic . Nymeria’s 10,000 ships. And End of Rhoynish Wars with Valyria 

400Bc- Osric Stark youngest L.C. serves for 60 years 16

300 Bc- Hardhome, first city north of the Wall burned to the ground , Valyrians take Dragonstone . . Commanders at Night Fort and Snow Gate go to war, teaming up to kill the L.C. till the Stark in Winterfell kills them.  Freys take the Neck. 

200Bc- Gate at Wall/ Bridge of Skulls Sealed. . Valyrian Steel Blades begin to enter Westeros..

112Bbc – Exile of the Targaryens from Valyria and flight to Westeros .

100 Bc- Doom of Valyria by Lannister Gold to the Faceless Men for entering Westeros? 

0 – Aegon’s Conquest 25

226 Ac – Raymund RedBeard vs Lord Willam Stark 27

300 Ac- Mance Rayder 28

 

 

Any quotes for these times are listed in this thread.

 

 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×