FIRE AND BLOOD EXCERPT

[Lady Barbrey]

On 9/28/2018 at 6:25 PM, Curled Finger said:

Just catching up.   It seems we agree here in getting the vibe Silverwing didn't like the Wall, not what lie beyond.  My thoughts went straight to Mel's comments about the magic being stronger there, too.   It's very interesting that a dragon wanted nothing to do with a place Mel says enhances her power.   What does that say about R'hllor and Valyrians in general?  Good point about there being a difference between Valyrian and other fire magic.   You just may be on to something here.  Look forward to watching you spin it out, Lady.   

Thanks CF, but there is just so much to spin out!  This little bit of info changes a lot of things if Silverwing couldn't cross, the option I prefer, rather than just sensed something.  If Silverwing couldn't cross, then the implication is, as many of us have speculated, that a proto-Valyrian was involved with the Long Night (likely ending it),or why was magic put in the Wall that targets both Others and Dragon Riders/Dragons? They had to exist for someone to magically ban them.

Some Valyrians ride dragons and they sometimes have prophetic dreams. The fire and blood magic practiced by fire mages - who knows what all they can do? - is different in nature.  All its practitioners we know of come from Essos.  They are sorcerors.  But the Valyrian dragon riders aren't for the most part sorcerors.  They're ensorcelled, in the same way Wargs, Skinchangers, the Others (and my bet creatures in the water) were.  Their nature was created by the Children to serve as army, navy, air force, and they've handed down that nature in the blood to their descendents. (My suspicion about any of this predates the show, btw, particularly from the World Book re the Leng people, inverted parallels to the Children, who 'marry' consorts to create or control an army and navy. Much of the far eastern and God Emperors section is just an inverted and Orientalized version of key players and events in Westeros, for instance - you can identify prominent figures and their families on that god emperor list: Robb Stark, Robert Baratheon, Tywin Lannister, Brynden Rivers-Targaryen, Tyrion Lannister in Emperor Claudius mode as a Targ, Illyrio, Varys I think, and three Greyjoys - Euron, Theon and Asha - but I digress.  My posts about this disappeared in the shuffle.).

Moreover, isn't the Azor Ahai myth an Orientalized fable about events in Westeros - the Children experimenting with 'water' hybrids (things in the water, Iron-born myth), then 'lion' or animal hybrids (do they have wolves in the east?), and then presumably a dragon hybrid - proto-Valyrian - to vanquish the great secret Other hybrid the Children couldn't control?

If a semblance of this were true, then think of the Pact.  The one we've heard about regarding the Children and the First Men, but also one that's been hinted at in Meera and Jojen's oath on ice and fire. The Children get the deep woods, the First Men the rest of Westeros, the Others are banished to the Far North, and the Valyrians are banished to Essos, possibly voluntarily. Both the Others and the Valyrians are inimical by their very nature to Westeros and the Children and that can be foreseen and likely is (I mean look what happens in Essos once the Valyrians take hold, but also to the Children as a consequence, because it's Andals escaping Valyrians that mean the almost-death of the Children).

If the Others were part of a pact between very leery and untrusting adversaries, they might agree to the Wall's magic keeping them in the Far North, but only on condition it also keeps Valyrians out of their own agreed-upon territory?  As for the Valyrians, very few in number, they agree to leave Westeros altogether and not come back but while the Wall can help enforce their avoidance of the Far North, their word  and their fear of the Children (a great force back then)/First Men alliance has to be relied upon to protect Westeros itself?

You can see what I mean about there being a great deal to spin out, relying on semi- supported but unproven theories and interpretation.  I have never, for one, been convinced of a pact that included the Others, for the simple reason I think it would be very hard to bring them to the table, but with this little bit of  information I'm kind of leaning more toward it.

I am following the discussion of Lord Varys, Ran, Freerider, etc, with a great deal of interest on just how the Wall operates, however, in regard to magical bonds between skinchanger/skinchanged  (for lack of better terminology)  including Wargs, Others and Valyrians, as I am totally open to the inquiry line I've taken above to be overturned!

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Did then the other living corpses who preceded Bloodraven in the illustrious position of greenseer also wait for somebody? Or isn't it actually pretty great to connect to a tree and get a much longer lifespan?

At this point we have no evidence that greenseers are, usually, mobile. If they were, the First Men should have had little chance against them. But stationary people cannot run away. Once you know some ugly sorcerer sits beneath every weirwood grove you cut the trees down and you dig the creep out and put him down.

If they could run and hide the animals should have made short work of the First Men. A greenseer can apparently dozens or hundreds of animals at the same time, which would extend to domesticated animals, too. They would have been so fucked.

Interesting thoughts.

In the greenseer thing I usually fall back onto Luwin's history lesson.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII
"They were a people dark and beautiful, small of stature, no taller than children even when grown to manhood. They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns. Slight as they were, the children were quick and graceful. Male and female hunted together, with weirwood bows and flying snares. Their gods were the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret. Their wise men were called greenseers, and carved strange faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the woods. How long the children reigned here or where they came from, no man can know.

"But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

"There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces./

Some 12,000 years ago the CotF (since the opening of ASOIAF approximately 297-298) the greenseers were the wise men of the CotF.

Whether or not the greenseers are mobile is not addressed.

 

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Did then the other living corpses who preceded Bloodraven in the illustrious position of greenseer also wait for somebody? Or isn't it actually pretty great to connect to a tree and get a much longer lifespan?

Why do you assume all previous greenseers were "living corpses"? There's nothing that points to that. And we know the greenseers were more numerous back in the day. I would imagine they didn't have to wait for anyone. Bloodraven is in a unique position imo. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

At this point we have no evidence that greenseers are, usually, mobile. If they were, the First Men should have had little chance against them. But stationary people cannot run away. Once you know some ugly sorcerer sits beneath every weirwood grove you cut the trees down and you dig the creep out and put him down.

No, there's actually no evidence pointing to the greenseers being physically joined to the trees as Bloodraven is. 

For instance (TWoIaF, The Coming of the First Men)

“Legend says that the great floods that broke the land bridge that is now the Broken Arm and made the Neck a swamp were the work of the greenseers, who gathered at Moat Cailin to work dark magic.”

 

 

[White Ravens]

59 minutes ago, Ran said:

Thinking more about this, I suspect flying over the Wall isn't deadly to creatures made of magic, nor is going under it. But it is a physical barrier. So my take at present is not that the Wall itself scared Silverwing, but the fact that -- as a creature of magic -- it sensed the fact that an inimical magic permeates the lands beyond the Wall, a magic that is held back by the Wall. South of the Wall, Silverwing sensed nothing... but as soon as it was above it, and Alysanne tried to push the dragon beyond the Wall, it sensed that magic and refused to go towards it.

My view is a bit different.  I suspect that it shows another aspect of how the Wall performs as a barrier and provides protection.  Physically, the Wall is almost too tall and massive to visualize.  It is a formidable physical barrier to overcome with the slippery, fragile ice making that much harder to scale.  Magic is known to be woven and incorporated into the Wall as well to protect against magical assaults and creatures.  If powerful wards and spells were put there to prevent magical creatures from flying over it, the magical barrier of the Wall might go up thousands of feet (miles?).  I don't get that the dragon sensed that the other side of the wall is permeated with magic, I see the dragon simply recognizing that trying to cross the wall would be impossible or dangerous/deadly.  It may be that a dragon would experience the exact same thing if it were on the north side of the Wall and wanted to fly south.

[HexMachina]

18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Why do you assume all previous greenseers were "living corpses"? There's nothing that points to that. And we know the greenseers were more numerous back in the day. I would imagine they didn't have to wait for anyone. Bloodraven is in a unique position imo. 

No, there's actually no evidence pointing to the greenseers being physically joined to the trees as Bloodraven is. 

For instance (TWoIaF, The Coming of the First Men)

“Legend says that the great floods that broke the land bridge that is now the Broken Arm and made the Neck a swamp were the work of the greenseers, who gathered at Moat Cailin to work dark magic.”

 

 

I think LV is probably referring to those Bran-as-Hodor sees in Bloodraven’s cave

[Clegane'sPup]

51 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Why do you assume all previous greenseers were "living corpses"? There's nothing that points to that. And we know the greenseers were more numerous back in the day. I would imagine they didn't have to wait for anyone. Bloodraven is in a unique position imo. 

No, there's actually no evidence pointing to the greenseers being physically joined to the trees as Bloodraven is. 

For instance (TWoIaF, The Coming of the First Men)

“Legend says that the great floods that broke the land bridge that is now the Broken Arm and made the Neck a swamp were the work of the greenseers, who gathered at Moat Cailin to work dark magic.”

 

 

Yeah, I know, I'm busting in on a conversation you are having with another poster. Sorry.

I, in my interpretation of typing ideas find that you and I sometimes reasonably fall into the same frame. You can take that as a pos or neg.

The dark magic as referenced in the quote you provided and that I provided is somewhat uncomfortable for me.

What really strikes my curiosity is how similar the Reeds are compared to the CotF as referenced in Luwin's history lesson.

MC is another sticky point for me considering the northern lands have not been successfully invaded from the south. That and the idea that the crannogmen (Reed, Greywater Watch) are verra illusive.

Edit: After thought, the Starks bent a knee due to the possibility of Targ large fire breathing lizard like dragons sometime after the Good Queen came to visit? I dunna know because I have not immersed myself in the history of Westeros.

[kissdbyfire]

45 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I think LV is probably referring to those Bran-as-Hodor sees in Bloodraven’s cave

The thought crossed my mind at first... but since he brought up the ancient wars between the CotF and the FM, I understood it to mean greenseers in general. Like, it's a thing, greenseers are physically connected to the heart trees. I see it differently.

18 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Yeah, I know, I'm busting in on a conversation you are having with another poster. Sorry.

The more, the merrier! 

Quote

I, in my interpretation of typing ideas find that you and I sometimes reasonably fall into the same frame. You can take that as a pos or neg.

Yup, we do. More often than not, and that's a good thing!

Quote

The dark magic as referenced in the quote you provided and that I provided is somewhat uncomfortable for me.

Why? Just curious, is all. 

Quote

What really strikes my curiosity is how similar the Reeds are compared to the CotF as referenced in Luwin's history lesson.

MC is another sticky point for me considering the northern lands have not been successfully invaded from the south. That and the idea that the crannogmen (Reed, Greywater Watch) are verra illusive.

 

Yes, they are. I'm sure we'll learn more eventually. Should be juicy and interesting. 

ETA: I think the quote you provided also supports what I'm saying, btw.

[Sea Dragon]

I finally had a chance to read this excerpt. Wow so cool. I guess the Starks and the Targaryens have always been a romance. I guess that means there is a lot more incest in the Stark line than we think. This means my idea that Jon will marry both Daenerys and Arya is really possible now because it comes from both bloodlines. I like how Good Queen Alysanne was so loved by everyone in the North. And I love how Good Queen Alysanne had a female red warrior protector. Wow that is so cool! 

I am so excited for this book to come out now. 

[White Ravens]

28 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Edit: After thought, the Starks bent a knee due to the possibility of Targ large fire breathing lizard like dragons sometime after the Good Queen came to visit? I dunna know because I have not immersed myself in the history of Westeros.

This new excerpt takes place 58 years after the burning of Harrenhal and the Field of Fire inspired King Torrhen Stark to bend the knee. 

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I think LV is probably referring to those Bran-as-Hodor sees in Bloodraven’s cave

I'm thinking Bran saw what Bran saw before Bran started doing the Hodor cave walk.

 

[Sea Dragon]

1 minute ago, White Ravens said:

This new excerpt takes place 58 years after the burning of Harrenhal and the Field of Fire inspired King Torrhen Stark to bend the knee. 

Because the Targaryens are the one true leaders of Westeros. George just keeps writing more and more stories to show this. 

[Annalee]

The fact that the Valyrians stopped at Dragonstone during their conquest should say something.  I am also taking into consideration that there are no weirwoods and no direwolves in Essos.  I am willing to bet that a peace pact was made a long time ago between man and white walker.  Humans did not originally live in Westeros.  I have had a theory for a long time about the conclusion to this story.  The humans will have to honor the ancient peace pact and leave Westeros.  Probably the Starks will stay because they have ice in their veins.  Meaning they somehow have a kinship with the white walkers.  And so does Craster.  The Starks will become the "kings of winter" in the end.  Kings over a frozen, dead land.  

 

[Clegane'sPup]

6 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

This new excerpt takes place 58 years after the burning of Harrenhal and the Field of Fire inspired King Torrhen Stark to bend the knee. 

Play along with me please because I seriously dunna understand. Grant me some slack. My question, this new excerpt that is promoting the upcoming book..... augh ffs me nieghbor at 8:30 pm in the dark is frekking mowing his lawn.

[White Ravens]

1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Play along with me please because I seriously dunna understand. Grant me some slack. My question, this new excerpt that is promoting the upcoming book..... augh ffs me nieghbor at 8:30 pm in the dark is frekking mowing his lawn.

Slack granted! 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

According to the Worldbook, apparently yes:

It is not just that, it is also both Arrax and Vhagar landing in the castle yard of Storm's End during the Dance.

Storm's End doesn't repel dragons - which, of course, is likely going to put to rest this idea that the Wall - and not the magic of the Others beyond the Wall (the Others as such and, of course, the Heart of Winter, whatever that is) - stops dragons, because Melisandre's shadow magic was stopped by the spells in the wall of Storm's End, and that magic was supposedly wrought by the same guy(s) as the spells in the Wall - Brandon the Builder and the Children of the Forest.

In combination with the fact that Melisandre - who is literally imbued with fire magic - actually can pass through the Wall I don't think we can interpret the Silverwing thing in the sense that she was stopped/repelled by the Wall.

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Thinking more about this, I suspect flying over the Wall isn't deadly to creatures made of magic, nor is going under it. But it is a physical barrier. So my take at present is not that the Wall itself scared Silverwing, but the fact that -- as a creature of magic -- it sensed the fact that an inimical magic permeates the lands beyond the Wall, a magic that is held back by the Wall. South of the Wall, Silverwing sensed nothing... but as soon as it was above it, and Alysanne tried to push the dragon beyond the Wall, it sensed that magic and refused to go towards it.

That would make more sense, although the text implies that she also did not like the cold that came from the Wall:

Quote

The men of the Night’s Watch were as thunderstruck by the queen’s dragon as the people of White Harbor had been, though the queen herself noted that Silverwing “does not like this Wall.” Though it was summer and the Wall was weeping, the chill of the ice could still be felt whenever the wind blew, and every gust would make the dragon hiss and snap. “Thrice I flew Silverwing high above Castle Black, and thrice I tried to take her north beyond the Wall,” Alysanne wrote to Jaehaerys, “but every time she veered back south again and refused to go. Never before has she refused to take me where I wished to go. I laughed about it when I came down again, so the black brothers would not realize anything was amiss, but it troubled me then and it troubles me still.”

However, this wind had to come from the north to carry the cold of the ice to a Silverwing south of the Wall (east, west, or south wind wouldn't have brought it) indicating that Silverwing may have caught not only the cold in the ice but actually the cold (or something magical) in the wind - pointing her to the Others.

But then, this whole thing is a textbook case of ambiguity. It is clear that a fire-breathing dragon does neither like cold nor wetness or water, so there would be nothing wrong with Silverwing not liking the Wall simply because it was made of ice.

Not flying across it is a different matter.

And if we are back in the territory of the Wall being actually passable by magical creatures, then we can also look forward to ice spiders and wights trying to climb it - and it defending itself the way it defended itself against the wildlings back in ASoS (or perhaps even more strongly than back then).

If the Wall worked as a magical barrier similar to the ward at the cave, then there might be no reason to actually build a large physical wall. Nor a reason to build it ever higher throughout the centuries. The men deciding to do that must have had an inclination why they were doing that.

The Wall cutting the land in two on 'a magical level' would also do much and more to explain how the Seven Kingdoms could completely forget the Others. If their magic was only evident down there in the long winters it would be very easy to ignore it. North of the Wall the world is still different. The Others and the Heart of Winter can be felt there. And wights are a thing.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Why do you assume all previous greenseers were "living corpses"? There's nothing that points to that. And we know the greenseers were more numerous back in the day. I would imagine they didn't have to wait for anyone. Bloodraven is in a unique position imo. 

I was referring to the other guys on weirwood thrones Brandon sees in the cave. These people (among them giants) who have degraded even more than Bloodraven but are still *alive* in a sense. This implies that it is part of the fun of being a greenseer to do what Bloodraven did. Become part of a weirwood tree.

In that capacity Bran can also rule the world and become a god. But the broken boy would not survive a day outside the cave. Not in winter, and not while the Others are still a thing.

Nor is there any narrative reason whatsoever to drag him into this forsaken place at the end of the world if he can become immensely powerful just by telepathy. Why on earth was 'the wizard' not beneath Winterfell? Or somewhere in the North?

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, there's actually no evidence pointing to the greenseers being physically joined to the trees as Bloodraven is. 

For instance (TWoIaF, The Coming of the First Men)

“Legend says that the great floods that broke the land bridge that is now the Broken Arm and made the Neck a swamp were the work of the greenseers, who gathered at Moat Cailin to work dark magic.”

Greenseers are not *people*. Or rather - they are not just one person. They can be dozens or even hundreds of animals, and presumably also a couple of people if they fry their minds. Just as Bran has Hodor now, his greenseer predecessors among the Children may have had their own puppet people walk around and talk. 

Brandon Stark no longer needs his weak and crippled body. He can take others.

In general:

I think the whole Jon-Ghost thing could explained by the means of taking into account that the Wall was directly between Jon and his wolf. Do we imagine Orell would have lost control of his eagle had the bird flown across the Wall (or Varamyr of the eagle after he had taken if over)?

I don't think so.

But if a bird were to land 'behind the Wall' and remain in the shadow of the Wall the magic might be cut. I'm pretty sure Jon standing atop the Wall looking down and seeing something white down there that could be Ghost might have helped him reestablish the link.

[Lady Barbrey]

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I was referring to the other guys on weirwood thrones Brandon sees in the cave. These people (among them giants) who have degraded even more than Bloodraven but are still *alive* in a sense. This implies that it is part of the fun of being a greenseer to do what Bloodraven did. Become part of a weirwood tree.

In that capacity Bran can also rule the world and become a god. But the broken boy would not survive a day outside the cave. Not in winter, and not while the Others are still a thing.

Nor is there any narrative reason whatsoever to drag him into this forsaken place at the end of the world if he can become immensely powerful just by telepathy. Why on earth was 'the wizard' not beneath Winterfell? Or somewhere in the North?

Greenseers are not *people*. Or rather - they are not just one person. They can be dozens or even hundreds of animals, and presumably also a couple of people if they fry their minds. Just as Bran has Hodor now, his greenseer predecessors among the Children may have had their own puppet people walk around and talk. 

Brandon Stark no longer needs his weak and crippled body. He can take others.

In general:

I think the whole Jon-Ghost thing could explained by the means of taking into account that the Wall was directly between Jon and his wolf. Do we imagine Orell would have lost control of his eagle had the bird flown across the Wall (or Varamyr of the eagle after he had taken if over)?

I don't think so.

But if a bird were to land 'behind the Wall' and remain in the shadow of the Wall the magic might be cut. I'm pretty sure Jon standing atop the Wall looking down and seeing something white down there that could be Ghost might have helped him reestablish the link.

I'm not quite liking the 'shadow of the Wall' thing; instead, if we take Ran's hypothesis that the Wall is holding back the magic of a territory, then could a one-directional magic apply? Jon is in the South and when Ghost is North of the Wall the connection is broken (or was it the opposite - can't believe I've forgotten!) But when anyone North of the Wall sends something through, the connection might be temporarily disrupted but not severed because the South doesn't hold the inimical magic?  As the wights connection is not severed?  Might this explain the Children situatiing themselves to the North of the Wall, to maintain connections both North and South?

Dunno. Just spinning wheels at more ambiguity as you're stated.  I was hoping for a clarification but it's not happening.

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I'm not quite liking the 'shadow of the Wall' thing; instead, if we take Ran's hypothesis that the Wall is holding back the magic of a territory, then could a one-directional magic apply? Jon is in the South and when Ghost is North of the Wall the connection is broken. But when anyone North of the Wall sends something through, the connection might be temporarily disrupted but not severed because the South doesn't hold the inimical magic?  As the wights connection is not severed?  Might this explain the Children situatiing themselves to the North of the Wall, to maintain connections both North and South?

Dunno.

I think @Ran meant the clash between fire and ice magic in his talk about inimical magic. Keep in mind that this is 'A Song of Ice and Fire' and this scene we are talking about here is, perhaps, one of the scenes in the as of yet finished books cutting to the magical dimension of that title.

Silverwing is fire. The Others are ice. These two things do not easily mix. And if Silverwing can avoid the Others and their magic she does just that. Which is the troublesome part I referred to earlier - the the dragons do fear the Others things may get very ugly in the not-so-distant future.

Vice versa, one should seriously keep in mind what a dragon at the Wall means if you are the Others or whatever mind or power directs the Others. And what it in general meant that there were a score or more dragons in Westeros. Think what may have happened if Rhaenyra and Aegon had said 'Fuck this succession nonsense, we want to see what's in the Land of Always Winter. Let's take our dragons there and find out!'

It might have been the end of the Others and the Heart of Winter. If whoever lives/is at the Heart of Winter can look down south that power would have smirked when the dragons killed each other, and laughed out loud when the last dragon died in 153 AC. But a dragon at the Wall in Jaehaerys' days wouldn't have been something the Others would like. It makes sense that they would send the very loud and explicit message to the dragon of 'GO AWAY! LEAVE US ALONE! WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE!' And Silverwing may have heard that message loud and clear.

If you ask me, the Others (or who-/whatever is behind them) set the grand plan in motion after the last dragon died. The fun thing is that this idea the Others were gone for thousands of years might just be nonsense - it might just be that they realized (after they had recovered from the defeat they supposedly suffered during the War for the Dawn) that they could not possibly made an attack now with hundreds (or thousands) of dragons around in Valyria. And after the Valyrians were gone, the dragons came to Westeros.

Only after the dragons were gone could the Others start their plans. Before that, the grand enterprise might have been futile or stillborn.

I'm not sure the wights thing is truly a variation of the skinchanger thing. It might be 'related magic' but I very much doubt it is the same thing. Skinchanged animals/humans reflect the intelligence of the beings that possess them (if possible). But the wights do not seem to be intelligent. They sort of follow a program, but they don't try to speak or communicate or show any signs of higher intelligence.

[Lady Barbrey]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think @Ran meant the clash between fire and ice magic in his talk about inimical magic. Keep in mind that this is 'A Song of Ice and Fire' and this scene we are talking about here is, perhaps, one of the scenes in the as of yet finished books cutting to the magical dimension of that title.

Silverwing is fire. The Others are ice. These two things do not easily mix. And if Silverwing can avoid the Others and their magic she does just that. Which is the troublesome part I referred to earlier - the the dragons do fear the Others things may get very ugly in the not-so-distant future.

Vice versa, one should seriously keep in mind what a dragon at the Wall means if you are the Others or whatever mind or power directs the Others. And what it in general meant that there were a score or more dragons in Westeros. Think what may have happened if Rhaenyra and Aegon had said 'Fuck this succession nonsense, we want to see what's in the Land of Always Winter. Let's take our dragons there and find out!'

It might have been the end of the Others and the Heart of Winter. If whoever lives/is at the Heart of Winter can look down south that power would have smirked when the dragons killed each other, and laughed out loud when the last dragon died in 153 AC. But a dragon at the Wall in Jaehaerys' days wouldn't have been something the Others would like. It makes sense that they would send the very loud and explicit message to the dragon of 'GO AWAY! LEAVE US ALONE! WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE!' And Silverwing may have heard that message loud and clear.

If you ask me, the Others (or who-/whatever is behind them) set the grand plan in motion after the last dragon died. The fun thing is that this idea the Others were gone for thousands of years might just be nonsense - it might just be that they realized (after they had recovered from the defeat they supposedly suffered during the War for the Dawn) that they could not possibly made an attack now with hundreds (or thousands) of dragons around in Valyria. And after the Valyrians were gone, the dragons came to Westeros.

Only after the dragons were gone could the Others start their plans. Before that, the grand enterprise might have been futile or stillborn.

I'm not sure the wights thing is truly a variation of the skinchanger thing. It might be 'related magic' but I very much doubt it is the same thing. Skinchanged animals/humans reflect the intelligence of the beings that possess them (if possible). But the wights do not seem to be intelligent. They sort of follow a program, but they don't try to speak or communicate or show any signs of higher intelligence.

I love the idea the territory or whoever's in charge is shouting out no trespassing!

I do think that the basic principle of skinchanging is behind all three - Skinchangers, Dragon riders and Others - but they are variations depending on what is skinchanged.  Wights are dead, and as Varamyr explained, they still retain something of will and intelligence - but not much.   They need a little ice for preservation. but don't put up much of a fight, that's why scores can be controlled at a time.  Living animals can be controlled while still retaining their natural intelligence, but there's symbiosis between the animal's strength of will and the skinchanger's that determines which and how many can be skinchanged.  Dragons, as Martin once explained, could possibly be skinchanged  but are so full of fierce will power it would be incredibly difficult if not impossible.  So that's why I think Valyrians were imbued with dragonfire magic when they, the Valyrians, were created to kill off the Others.  That way the dragons recognize them as kin, of the same nature, so they can more easily be bonded and thus controlled, particularly if raised from an egg.  It's not the easier skinchanging we've seen, and dragons don't submit easily even then to the bond, sometimes requiring horns, etc. But at core it's the same magic that created all of them, just differing with the will of the creatures being bonded and the elements that go into the mix.

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Thanks CF, but there is just so much to spin out!  This little bit of info changes a lot of things if Silverwing couldn't cross, the option I prefer, rather than just sensed something.  If Silverwing couldn't cross, then the implication is, as many of us have speculated, that a proto-Valyrian was involved with the Long Night (likely ending it),or why was magic put in the Wall that targets both Others and Dragon Riders/Dragons? They had to exist for someone to magically ban them.

Some Valyrians ride dragons and they sometimes have prophetic dreams. The fire and blood magic practiced by fire mages - who knows what all they can do? - is different in nature.  All its practitioners we know of come from Essos.  They are sorcerors.  But the Valyrian dragon riders aren't for the most part sorcerors.  They're ensorcelled, in the same way Wargs, Skinchangers, the Others (and my bet creatures in the water) were.  Their nature was created by the Children to serve as army, navy, air force, and they've handed down that nature in the blood to their descendents. (My suspicion about any of this predates the show, btw, particularly from the World Book re the Leng people, inverted parallels to the Children, who 'marry' consorts to create or control an army and navy. Much of the far eastern and God Emperors section is just an inverted and Orientalized version of key players and events in Westeros, for instance - you can identify prominent figures and their families on that god emperor list: Robb Stark, Robert Baratheon, Tywin Lannister, Brynden Rivers-Targaryen, Tyrion Lannister in Emperor Claudius mode as a Targ, Illyrio, Varys I think, and three Greyjoys - Euron, Theon and Asha - but I digress.  My posts about this disappeared in the shuffle.).

Moreover, isn't the Azor Ahai myth an Orientalized fable about events in Westeros - the Children experimenting with 'water' hybrids (things in the water, Iron-born myth), then 'lion' or animal hybrids (do they have wolves in the east?), and then presumably a dragon hybrid - proto-Valyrian - to vanquish the great secret Other hybrid the Children couldn't control?

If a semblance of this were true, then think of the Pact.  The one we've heard about regarding the Children and the First Men, but also one that's been hinted at in Meera and Jojen's oath on ice and fire. The Children get the deep woods, the First Men the rest of Westeros, the Others are banished to the Far North, and the Valyrians are banished to Essos, possibly voluntarily. Both the Others and the Valyrians are inimical by their very nature to Westeros and the Children and that can be foreseen and likely is (I mean look what happens in Essos once the Valyrians take hold, but also to the Children as a consequence, because it's Andals escaping Valyrians that mean the almost-death of the Children).

If the Others were part of a pact between very leery and untrusting adversaries, they might agree to the Wall's magic keeping them in the Far North, but only on condition it also keeps Valyrians out of their own agreed-upon territory?  As for the Valyrians, very few in number, they agree to leave Westeros altogether and not come back but while the Wall can help enforce their avoidance of the Far North, their word  and their fear of the Children (a great force back then)/First Men alliance has to be relied upon to protect Westeros itself?

You can see what I mean about there being a great deal to spin out, relying on semi- supported but unproven theories and interpretation.  I have never, for one, been convinced of a pact that included the Others, for the simple reason I think it would be very hard to bring them to the table, but with this little bit of  information I'm kind of leaning more toward it.

I am following the discussion of Lord Varys, Ran, Freerider, etc, with a great deal of interest on just how the Wall operates, however, in regard to magical bonds between skinchanger/skinchanged  (for lack of better terminology)  including Wargs, Others and Valyrians, as I am totally open to the inquiry line I've taken above to be overturned!

It's all just fascinating.  It never occurred to me that 1) the people who became Valyrians or proto Valyrians or 2) the Others would have been part of this pact.   I assumed it was just as advertised, between the 1st Men and COTF.  That opens the door to another discussion about the nature of the 1st Men and any inherent magic they brought to Westeros.  We know the Others are sentient as some animals also seem to be.  Fire wights seem to be while Ice wights do not.    I asked Freeborn Northman to clarify his statement about dragons having the intelligence of dogs because that too, is new to me.   You have named and accused proto Valyrians of being involved in the events in Westeros that led to the Pact.  I think the biggest disconnect for me is what are proto Valyrians?  I ask this because I've always assumed the folks to be the Daynes and maybe Hightowers.  We know the Daynes have a most unusual magic sword and the Hightowers at least study spells.  In that light, the Hightowers also had if not still possess, a magic sword directly from Valyria.   If I'm not completely off on what you have said, why aren't they gone?  Gatekeepers?  Hostages?  More specifically, what is their innate Valyrian magic if not dragons and hellfire?  

I think a Pact between 2 species indicates an alliance or promise between the two signators.  Now, it's no secret that I have only the most limited understanding of ice magic.   Are the COTF ice magic practitioners?   I thought they were little hippy type people, nature lovers, tree huggers.  But they are magic in more prevalent ways than I understand ice magic.  Jojen & Meera's oath to Bran led me to believe the Pact became an alliance.  Perhaps against a greater threat to both 1st Men & COTF than they were to each other.  Silly me, I took this greater threat to be the Others, but you open an entirely new line of consideration here in tossing in fire magic practitioners.   Hrm.   I reckon it really could work that way and I understand even less about fire magic than I thought I did.   

Back to the Wall that seems to ward both Ice to the north and Fire to the south magic.   Separating the power.  Poor Jon, man is he in for it if he ever gets out of his current, er, dilemma.  The Wall is powerful magic, a result of that odd alliance between the 1st Men and COTF.   Could the Wall be the culmination of the strength of whatever innate magics the earth lovers and 1st Men possessed?  It makes sense that faction might muster the strength to ward 1 power and inadvertently warding the other.   Hrm.   Ha!  Old tricksy GRRM is going to HAVE to get Dany back to Westeros so we can see what happens to her dragons!   Winter and the winds of will just have to come, won't they?     Really interesting stuff, Lady.  I think we should all go recreate and revisit some of the old stuff with new thoughts.   I wish you would do it!