FIRE AND BLOOD EXCERPT

[honorable men]

A lot of houses from Stonish Dornish area, The Dornish Marchers Selmy, Caron, Dondarrion. Houses around the Gods Eye. Crackclaw Point. Blackwater Bay...

[AlaskanSandman]

Is no one tripping over Lord Stark approaching Silverwing and not getting burned? Isn't that a dragon seed thing? 

[hiemal]

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

The term used is 'women's court', not 'council',

Doh!

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

and that paragraph implies that this is a royal court/audience conducted by the queen which only women attended. It could be Alysanne's own design to create such an institution (it is obvious that this might be how Alysanne learned about the problems of the First Night), but it could just as well go back to Queen Rhaenys (although not to Visenya - I don't think she cared about or liked to hang out with women).

 I am curious to what degree it was a stable or regular occurrence while not on procession and if women away from the physical "court" had other means to make their voices heard. I definitely agree about Visenya, but with Rhaenys connections to bards as her own more musical ravens she would be ideally situated to make this a thing if chose to do so and had the time before her misadventure in Dorne.

 

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Why this is no longer a thing in later years as far as we know also seems to be rather obvious - if the queens don't give a shit, they don't do it. And if they are just breed mares at the side of the king there would also be no point. Many of the later queens played little or no part in the governance of the Realm.

My main tinfoily thrust is to what extant might such a "court" simply go underground when queens were not inclined to play along. Noble ladies throughout the land would have a vested interest in keeping some kind of information network open, even without the influence of regal ears?

It seems that matchmaking was of some interest to this court and that kind of information is always useful.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aemma Arryn is a very shadowy figure, and Alicent Hightower seemed to have better things to do, anyway. Daenaera Velaryon we don't really know as of yet, and Queen Naerys was too much under the thumb of her brother-husband (and too much concerned with her piety, etc. anyway). But some of the stronger queens of later years - Mariah Martell, perhaps, or Betha Blackwood - may have revived this thing. Some of Egg's reforms could also be based on stuff Betha learned in such courts.

I'm looking forward to putting some meat on all of those bones. It seems kind of a tease to do it half and half, Betha is one that has always caught my imagination and I'm not thrilled about having to take this meal in two servings...

[Lord Varys]

40 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I am curious to what degree it was a stable or regular occurrence while not on procession and if women away from the physical "court" had other means to make their voices heard. I definitely agree about Visenya, but with Rhaenys connections to bards as her own more musical ravens she would be ideally situated to make this a thing if chose to do so and had the time before her misadventure in Dorne.

Sure, but having gone back to the paragraph in question it seems this women's court thing was a new thing to the women at White Harbor. If Rhaenys had started the tradition then Visenya and Alyssa Velaryon would have likely continued it. We don't know whether Rhaenys ever went on progress up north, but we do know Aegon did, which means either Visenya or Alyssa may have accompanied him, and if the women's courts had been a thing back then, the Northern women would have known about it.

That makes it more likely that this was an invention of Alysanne's.

Which, I think, would also fit well with the Rule of Six. That was not a judgment made because a woman complained, it grew out of the complaints of some men (the brothers of the woman who had been beaten to death). Rhaenys did care a lot about the smallfolk and women, etc. but she may not have been as methodical as Alysanne. According to her character description she was one of the more unstabler Targaryens.

40 minutes ago, hiemal said:

My main tinfoily thrust is to what extant might such a "court" simply go underground when queens were not inclined to play along. Noble ladies throughout the land would have a vested interest in keeping some kind of information network open, even without the influence of regal ears?

Well, the idea seems to be that Alysanne invites women to talk to her. No idea how this would work if nobody invited them. One assumes ladies could do this as well, but ladies are not queens. That one can gather information this way is evident - but I doubt this would make a good spy network. It would just be part of a royal progress - which with the king talking to the men is also a way to gather information, find out what troubles the people of the Realm, get information on things that could evolve into an uprising or a rebellion, etc.

40 minutes ago, hiemal said:

It seems that matchmaking was of some interest to this court and that kind of information is always useful.

Not sure where you are getting that. Alysanne likes to make matches, but there is nothing about match-making things during the women's court, or is there. Not sure Alysanne cares to arrange marriages for the smallfolk, but who knows ;-).

40 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I'm looking forward to putting some meat on all of those bones. It seems kind of a tease to do it half and half, Betha is one that has always caught my imagination and I'm not thrilled about having to take this meal in two servings...

Welll, Daenaera could also be important in the political field, along with Aegon III's half-sisters. A king who broods in his chambers and never speaks with anyone for days or weeks needs others to stand in for him, represent him, rule for him, etc. And Viserys was only his Hand in his last years - and even before, his Hand couldn't have helped him with everything. The twins would have been there for him before that, one assumes, and especially his queen may have shouldered many of his burdens once she was old enough to do so - say, perhaps starting in her early teens.

But Betha should be part of the reformist agenda, so she may have played a rather important role during the reign of Aegon V.

[zionius]

Random House released the updated Targ family tree: https://signup.penguinrandomhouse.com/download/10740

I converted it to png: https://imgur.com/60kklxW

[Lord Varys]

They should add the symbol meaning 'sat the Iron Throne' to Rhaenyra as well. If it were 'legitimate monarchs' or stuff like that, it would make sense to leave her out, but she did sit the Iron Throne as Queen Regnant.

[The hairy bear]

Fair enough, although we know that Hands also sit on the Iron Throne when they hold court. For all we know, Baelon also sat there on occasion.

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Fair enough, although we know that Hands also sit on the Iron Throne when they hold court. For all we know, Baelon also sat there on occasion.

And Rhaenys and Visenya, too, but that isn't the same.

And depending how early Rook's Rest happened or how disinterested Aegon II was in his own governance, he may have even sat the throne less often than Rhaenyra.

[Springwatch]

18 hours ago, RumHam said:

Just thinking out loud here, but It did always seem strange that the giant ice wall was built by the humans and not the ice monsters. I'm a firm believer that Dany's dragons are the modern Lightbringer. Maybe the original Lightbringer was actually a dragon also and the Wall was built by the others to keep dragons away from the heart of winter?

The more I think of it, the stranger it gets. The Wall must have been constructed by a supreme practitioner of ice magic - but not, apparently, an Other, because it obstructs the goal of eternal winter (the ghost grass scenario). So either there is more than one faction north of the Wall, or the Brandon the Builder story is a lot more serious than I thought.

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And if there is a magical 'barrier' even above the Wall, then why was the Wall raised so high? What was the point of that?   

Even now the Wall is not tall enough to stop people climbing over, so height may not be significant that way.

I guess the Wall is getting taller because it's accumulating material - snow obviously, but also the magic something that makes a magical object possible. I had a suspicion that it was powered by the souls of dead watchmen; but it could the Wall acting as a trap accumulating ice magic (in which case, by now it's more like a nuclear bomb than a wall).

[Springwatch]

On 9/30/2018 at 5:47 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Similarly, would Silverwing have been able to enter Winterfell, had Alaric allowed it, whose foundations likely have the same ancient barrier spells as Storm’s End woven into it.

I guess not. The incident is echoed in AGOT, when Cersei's wheelhouse has to be left outside Winterfell.

The sun/fire queen can enter the castle, but she has to leave her 'mount' outside. It says something about the northern limit of fire supremacy, I think.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I guess not. The incident is echoed in AGOT, when Cersei's wheelhouse has to be left outside Winterfell.

The sun/fire queen can enter the castle, but she has to leave her 'mount' outside. It says something about the northern limit of fire supremacy, I think.

There were dragons inside of Winterfell as I laid out above.

We also know that the NW has built the Wall to its present height. There is nothing magical about that.

[Springwatch]

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There were dragons inside of Winterfell as I laid out above.

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I assume that's all fine.

[ETA - Found it. Ok, but we can be fairly certain that those dragons were invited in.]

What strikes me personally is that Silverwing stuck outside Winterfell and the wheelhouse stuck outside Winterfell both signify the queen reaching the outer limit of her power. If she goes further, she is leaving some of her power behind.

What with things repeating themselves, it may have implications for Dany.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I assume that's all fine.

[ETA - Found it. Ok, but we can be fairly certain that those dragons were invited in.]

I doubt Cregan Stark invited Jacaerys and Vermax into his castle, just as Borros Baratheon also did not invite Vhagar and Arrax and their riders into his.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

What strikes me personally is that Silverwing stuck outside Winterfell and the wheelhouse stuck outside Winterfell both signify the queen reaching the outer limit of her power. If she goes further, she is leaving some of her power behind.

What with things repeating themselves, it may have implications for Dany.

Last time I looked Ned and Cat both knelt to their king and queen, doing them homage. Their power did not stop at Winterfell. Neither Robert's nor Cersei's. A lord is certainly the master of his own castle and the monarch his guest, but the monarch is still his liege so this is not a meeting among equals.

[Lady Barbrey]

17 hours ago, hiemal said:

Doh!

 I am curious to what degree it was a stable or regular occurrence while not on procession and if women away from the physical "court" had other means to make their voices heard. I definitely agree about Visenya, but with Rhaenys connections to bards as her own more musical ravens she would be ideally situated to make this a thing if chose to do so and had the time before her misadventure in Dorne.

 

My main tinfoily thrust is to what extant might such a "court" simply go underground when queens were not inclined to play along. Noble ladies throughout the land would have a vested interest in keeping some kind of information network open, even without the influence of regal ears?

It seems that matchmaking was of some interest to this court and that kind of information is always useful.

I'm looking forward to putting some meat on all of those bones. It seems kind of a tease to do it half and half, Betha is one that has always caught my imagination and I'm not thrilled about having to take this meal in two servings...

You likely know this, but GRRM based Alysanne in part on Queen Eleanor of England (see the Wiki), aka Eleanor of Aquitaine, and because we already have some resemblances between Glastonbury and Winterfell, I found it very curious Alysanne is the only Queen to have visited Winterfell, and Eleanor herself visited Glastonbury to oversee the disinterment of King Arthur's supposed bones and their reburial.   So I guess I always wondered if Alysanne had come into possession of some ancient knowledge regarding the Last Hero and came to mess around in the Winterfell crypts!  It's suggestive, that bit of history, if nothing more.

But with the Court of Women, GRRM is making another connection to Queen Eleanor, who reportedly created a Court of Love with her daughter and other noblewoman in Poiteu to resolve disputes and concerns of women in love.  These women  reputedly concluded there was no such thing as love! 

This tidbit about Alysanne and her Court of Women likely was inspired by Eleanor and her Court of Love. I imagine Alysanne's penchant for matchmaking North and South also got its inspiration from the same source.

Alysanne's purpose seems less frivolous on the face of it, but as matchmaking for nobility was highly politicized and actually far from frivolous, and the Codes of Chivalry were established from just such Courts of Love as Eleanor's, changing the culture towards a slightly more female-centric one, her Court of Women might not have differed too much in effect from Eleanor's Court of Love.

Just a little historical interest; it doesn't perhaps shed too much light on Alysanne's Court, but does give it texture and colour imo. 

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I doubt Cregan Stark invited Jacaerys and Vermax into his castle, just as Borros Baratheon also did not invite Vhagar and Arrax and their riders into his.

What cause for doubt is there? Jacaerys was a fifteen-year-old envoy, and his mother was so anxious for his safety that she made him swear an oath not to take part in any fighting. It follows that strong-arm tactics weren't authorised either.

It also seems out of character. The wiki says Jacaerys was 'charming, valiant, innovative, and responsible'. The books say 'The prince was so charming and his dragon so fearsome, that each of the lords he visited pledged support....'

Directly invading the lords' castles with the fearsome dragon would not have been charming. It would be parking tanks on the lords' lawns. It would be a reminder of Harrenhal. Not a likely tactic for the queen's messenger.

[ETA  - Storm's End was considered a friendly castle, already, so the invitation for Lucerys to land inside could be inferred.]

Quote

Last time I looked Ned and Cat both knelt to their king and queen, doing them homage. Their power did not stop at Winterfell. Neither Robert's nor Cersei's. A lord is certainly the master of his own castle and the monarch his guest, but the monarch is still his liege so this is not a meeting among equals.

Not temporal power. I was thinking of the queens' fire/sun heritage, and the whole battle of ice and fire thing. No worries.

[Guest]

Using seemingly frivolous feminine activity, charm, courtesy, and soft power is very Sansa. This preview makes me more convinced that Sansa is primed to be queen consort of Westeros. I'm not seeing any deep parallels to Dany, other than Dany and Alysanne both having dragons.

[hiemal]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but having gone back to the paragraph in question it seems this women's court thing was a new thing to the women at White Harbor. If Rhaenys had started the tradition then Visenya and Alyssa Velaryon would have likely continued it. We don't know whether Rhaenys ever went on progress up north, but we do know Aegon did, which means either Visenya or Alyssa may have accompanied him, and if the women's courts had been a thing back then, the Northern women would have known about it.

That seems likely. It makes me wonder about the lives and wives of the various reformers and the following reactionaries that seem to keep popping up. I'm afraid my knowledge fails me but both Jahaeryses (Jaharii?), as well as Daeron II and Aegon V and possibly Baelor (?) and maybe even Aenys (??) might fall into the former category? Anyways, just more idle speculation. Can you tell I'm a little excited?

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Which, I think, would also fit well with the Rule of Six. That was not a judgment made because a woman complained, it grew out of the complaints of some men (the brothers of the woman who had been beaten to death). Rhaenys did care a lot about the smallfolk and women, etc. but she may not have been as methodical as Alysanne. According to her character description she was one of the more unstabler Targaryens.

 

I have to admit I'm drawing a blank here but I'm really curious. Rule of Six?

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Not sure where you are getting that. Alysanne likes to make matches, but there is nothing about match-making things during the women's court, or is there. Not sure Alysanne cares to arrange marriages for the smallfolk, but who knows ;-).

 

Probably just my tendency to read too much into things, but the feeling I got was that Alysanne was very canny about her matchmaking not both on the political and personal side. For example, by opening Alaric up to the idea of marriage ties with Southrons who kept the Old Gods due to her personal charm and reasoning abilities she opened up a new realm of potential alliances and ties. Her power is considerable and I am perhaps overeager to tie it into a larger tinfoil network before so many more puzzle pieces are dumped into our laps.

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Welll, Daenaera could also be important in the political field, along with Aegon III's half-sisters. A king who broods in his chambers and never speaks with anyone for days or weeks needs others to stand in for him, represent him, rule for him, etc. And Viserys was only his Hand in his last years - and even before, his Hand couldn't have helped him with everything. The twins would have been there for him before that, one assumes, and especially his queen may have shouldered many of his burdens once she was old enough to do so - say, perhaps starting in her early teens.

But Betha should be part of the reformist agenda, so she may have played a rather important role during the reign of Aegon V.

You are a forum treasure, LV.

 

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Lady Barbrey said:

You likely know this, but GRRM based Alysanne in part on Queen Eleanor of England (see the Wiki), aka Eleanor of Aquitaine, and because we already have some resemblances between Glastonbury and Winterfell, I found it very curious Alysanne is the only Queen to have visited Winterfell, and Eleanor herself visited Glastonbury to oversee the disinterment of King Arthur's supposed bones and their reburial.   So I guess I always wondered if Alysanne had come into possession of some ancient knowledge regarding the Last Hero and came to mess around in the crypts!  It's suggestive, that bit of history, if nothing more.

I didn't, actually, and thank you for bringing it my attention. As much as I love making connections people tend to be a blind spot for me. I'll spot Starks/Yorks and Lannisters/Lancasters but be oblivious to the person to person matches. Nobody's perfect, I suppose.

It's certainly screaming suggestions at me!

1 hour ago, Lady Barbrey said:

 

But with the Court of Women, GRRM is making another connection to Queen Eleanor, who reportedly created a Court of Love with her daughter and other noblewoman in Poiteu to resolve disputes and concerns of women in love.  These women  reputedly concluded there was no such thing as love! 

This tidbit about Alysanne and her Court of Women likely was inspired by Eleanor and her Court of Love. I imagine Alysanne's penchant for matchmaking North and South also got its inspiration from the same source.

Alysanne's purpose seems less frivolous on the face of it, but as matchmaking for nobility was highly politicized and actually far from frivolous, and the Codes of Chivalry were established from just such Courts of Love as Eleanor's, changing the culture towards a slightly more female-centric one, her Court of Women might not have differed too much in effect from Eleanor's Court of Love.

Just a little historical interest; it doesn't perhaps shed too much light on Alysanne's Court, but does give it texture and colour imo. 

I agree. That's some great stuff!

[Lady Barbrey]

33 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I didn't, actually, and thank you for bringing it my attention. As much as I love making connections people tend to be a blind spot for me. I'll spot Starks/Yorks and Lannisters/Lancasters but be oblivious to the person to person matches. Nobody's perfect, I suppose.

It's certainly screaming suggestions at me!

 

Ha! You are not alone.  When I first pointed out the possible parallel of Queen Eleanor/Glastonbury/King Arthur/Grave to Queen Alysanne/Winterfell/Last Hero/Crypts, the thread went a little wild with speculation.  That was some years ago now, on one of Sly Wren's Dawn threads I think.  Some interesting theories came out of it, if I remember correctly,  on both a mythological and political level.

[RumHam]

On 9/28/2018 at 6:11 PM, Ckram said:

Ok, no supporting quote then.

Not a book quote, but apparently the app says the Lord Commander left the Nightfort for Castle Black six hundred years ago, and the Nightfort was abandoned two hundred years ago.