FIRE AND BLOOD EXCERPT

[Corvo the Crow]

On Robar/Rogar discussion a few days back, remember that there's a Lyseni banking house, Rogare and that Lysene are the purest Valyrian remnants along with Volantenes of Old Volantis.

[The Grey Wolf]

There was also a Rogar Bolton during the Andal Invasion so I wouldn't put too much stock in that.

Also, that SOTD quote is pretty ambiguous.

[The Wondering Wolf]

22 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Also, that SOTD quote is pretty ambiguous.

In my opinion it is rather clear. Alyssa started to act as regent, Rogar was named hand, and from that point on half a year later they wed. But if you want it stated more expressly, I guess you will have to wait for the book.

[The Grey Wolf]

Time will soon tell. 

[Lord Varys]

TWoIaF was somewhat ambiguous on the Alyssa-Rogar thing, but I, too, would say the phrasing in TSotD very much implies we are talking about the time after the beginning of the Regency there, not the time after the end of the Regency.

As for names like Rogar - there can be independent development and usage. We can also wonder how it is that Alyssa Velaryon bears an apparent Andal name - if we assume Alyssa Arryn was one of the first Alyssas in Westerosi history - but it may be that this name was in use both among the Velaryons of Valyria and the (ancient) Andals.

Also note that an ancient Andal name like 'Artys' also has a Valyrian or Essosi flavor to it - which is not unsurprising, considering the Andals come from Essos and interacted a lot with the ancient Valyrians and their daughter cities.

That the name 'Rogar' traversed from the North to Storm's End doesn't strike me as particularly likely, either.

[Jussi]

Cover art for the Subterranean Press edition:

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Subpress-FB.jpg

[The Grey Wolf]

2 hours ago, Jussi said:

Cover art for the Subterranean Press edition:

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Subpress-FB.jpg

I saw that a few weeks back but couldn't find a link to actually order it.

[Bael's Bastard]

What are some possible implications of a Second Wedding of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne at Dragonstone?

Quote

I was completely overwhelmed with all of the “inspiring” images. The book was so rich with characters and story, it was hard to know where to start. I realized that I had to approach my “wish list” from the point of what was the most important image in that ten page segment. It wasn’t always the one I wanted to draw the most, but the one I felt was the most complimentary to the story George was telling. One of many images that I recall grabbing me was the second wedding of Jaehaerys and Alysanne at Dragonstone. I remember reading that scene and just thinking this is an absolute must. I sent them in and crossed my fingers. I also had some specific suggestions and selections from George to work on right away.

Was this just a renewal of vows? Could there have been an actual divorce?

http://www.westeros.org/News/Entry/Fire_Blood_Interview_with_Artist_Doug_Wheatley

[Alexis-something-Rose]

22 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Was this just a renewal of vows? Could there have been an actual divorce?

If it's a divorce, then the implication is a very interesting one.

[The hairy bear]

I don't think a divorce would be an option, in this context.

I guess it's more likely that they first married in private while hiding from Maegor, and then did another public official marriage in Dragonstone.

Another option could be that they first married under the Valyrian ritual, and then they decided that I'd be a good idea to get married by the Faith.

 

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

53 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I guess it's more likely that they first married in private while hiding from Maegor, and then did another public official marriage in Dragonstone.

 

KL is best for public marriage appearances.

[The hairy bear]

Generally that'd be the case, but perhaps it was different when Jaehaerys was crowned. At this point, King's Landing could still be a smaller settlement in comparison to the great capital i t would become. And Maegor had just waged a vicious war against the Faith and destroyed the Sept of Remembrance, so at the time the city may not have had an appropriately magnificent sept fit to host a royal wedding.

Meanwhile, the sept of Dragonstone would have some prestige attached to it, as it's the place where Aegon prayed before sailing to the Conquest, and presumably where he had married Visenya and Rhaenys.

 

[The Grey Wolf]

@The hairy bear

What about the sept atop Visenya's Hill?

Also, GRRM said in an SSM that the concept of divorce does exist in Westeros but that it is exceedingly rare if I recall correctly.

[The hairy bear]

@The Grey Wolf

The sept at Visenya's Hill was the first sept build in the city early in Aegon's reign. The World Book tells us it was literally the next step after a sunken cog. I can only imagine it small and hastily made. So I can see how Jaehaerys wouldn't like to be married there (even if we ignore the fact that Jaehaerys had reason to dislike "Visenya's Hill" by itself)

When Baelor the Blessed decided to build his Great Sept, here's no mention to any previous sept needing to be demolished. I doubt that Baelor would have done it, if it had been the first sept in the city built by Aegon himself. This supports the idea that it was an unremarkable building that didn't last many years (it may have been destroyed by Maegor too).

I'm just speculating though. In only 12 days we will have the answer!

ETA: About divorce:

Even if a divorce is possible in Westeros (I don't think we have any example), in this case Jaehaerys is not only Alysanne's husband but the head of her house. She'd have nowhere to go. I guess it could have been a friendly divorce, but would they do that when they can simply get separated? The only reason I can think of that would justify a divorce is that they wanted to marry someone else, but we know they didn't.

[The Grey Wolf]

6 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I'm just speculating though. In only 12 days we will have the answer!

Hype!

[Ran]

1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@The hairy bear

 

Also, GRRM said in an SSM that the concept of divorce does exist in Westeros but that it is exceedingly rare if I recall correctly.

Annulment exists, not divorce. 

I have made one correction to the interview, BTW, as people finding that quote interesting (as they should!) made me realize that Doug misspoke. The second wedding is in KL, not Dragonstone, as he originally stated.

[chrisdaw]

A second wedding sounds like a good way to distract and appease the masses.

[The Grey Wolf]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Annulment exists, not divorce.

My bad.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I guess it's more likely that they first married in private while hiding from Maegor, and then did another public official marriage in Dragonstone.

That's a nice idea and one I'd favor if Jaehaerys and Alysanne were not 14 and 12 in 48 AC, respectively. That is too young to be married, especially for Alysanne. In 44 AC when Visenya died they would have been 10 and 8 respectively, and while they were hiding they would have had better things to do than marry.

However, if they had gone underground at the age of 14/12 I think that could have made a very nice and interesting story.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Generally that'd be the case, but perhaps it was different when Jaehaerys was crowned. At this point, King's Landing could still be a smaller settlement in comparison to the great capital i t would become. And Maegor had just waged a vicious war against the Faith and destroyed the Sept of Remembrance, so at the time the city may not have had an appropriately magnificent sept fit to host a royal wedding.

From what we learn about the development of KL during Aegon's reign in TSotD this seems to be very unlikely.

I agree that Dragonstone is the ancestral seat of the house, a place that likely held always more meaning for the Targaryen than KL and the Red Keep (especially while the dragons were still around) but I don't think they necessarily need a great sept for a royal wedding. They could do the ceremony in the castle sept and celebrate in the Red Keep - or in the Dragonpit or even outside the city.

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

@The Grey Wolf

The sept at Visenya's Hill was the first sept build in the city early in Aegon's reign. The World Book tells us it was literally the next step after a sunken cog. I can only imagine it small and hastily made. So I can see how Jaehaerys wouldn't like to be married there (even if we ignore the fact that Jaehaerys had reason to dislike "Visenya's Hill" by itself)

During the reign of King Aenys the royal family actually resided on Visenya's Hill when they were in the capital. The Aegonfort had been torn down, and the Red Keep was not yet in any shape to live there.

There was a royal manse on Visenya's Hill in those days, the place where Aenys and his family were attacked by the sparrows. This did not happen in the Red Keep (TWoIaF claiming that seems to be an error).

Whether the sept on Visenya's Hill still existed at that time is unclear. The manse did not necessarily occupy the entire top of the hill if Visenya's Hill is of similar size as Aegon's High Hill.

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

When Baelor the Blessed decided to build his Great Sept, here's no mention to any previous sept needing to be demolished. I doubt that Baelor would have done it, if it had been the first sept in the city built by Aegon himself. This supports the idea that it was an unremarkable building that didn't last many years (it may have been destroyed by Maegor too).

Somebody would have demolished the royal manse on the hilltop, though. Since we have no detailed report on the beginning or circumstances around the building of the Great Sept we cannot really claim no buildings were demolished for that project. Considering the size of the sept I'd assume that multiple buildings had been torn down to make space for the Great Sept.

Just as not only the ruin of the Sept of Remembrance may have been removed from Rhaenys' Hill to make space for the Dragonpit.

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

Even if a divorce is possible in Westeros (I don't think we have any example), in this case Jaehaerys is not only Alysanne's husband but the head of her house. She'd have nowhere to go. I guess it could have been a friendly divorce, but would they do that when they can simply get separated? The only reason I can think of that would justify a divorce is that they wanted to marry someone else, but we know they didn't.

Alysanne is the queen and a dragonrider. She could go wherever she wanted in such a scenario.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Annulment exists, not divorce.

Do we really have in confirmed that an annulment is the same as 'setting aside your wife/marriage'?

I'm asking because the vibe I get is that the former is the more, well, proper procedure thing where the status of a marriage is actually investigated by the Faith and then you have it annulled on the basis of non-consummation, say, or whatever other conditions the Faith knows for such a case (possibly a forced marriage, impotency, barrenness, etc.) whereas the setting aside thing the kings seem to be able to do more feels like the king saying that his wife is no longer his wife and then it is over.

Cersei's very real fear to be set aside by Robert and to be replaced by another Lyanna very much implies that he could have gotten rid of her. And the idea that the High Septon would have actually dared to declare the marriage of Cersei Lannister, daughter of Tywin Lannister, null and void sounds like a ridiculous scenario if you think about it. Tywin's wealth alone should have made that impossible.

An annulment especially on the basis of non-consummation is something women can get, too, whereas 'setting aside a wife' seems to be something men (especially kings) can do.

And for it is worth I think Prince Maegor thought he had set aside his marriage to Ceryse Hightower when he announced his second marriage to Alys Harroway. He had no intention to continue the marriage with the barren Ceryse, and did not exactly want to take two wives in the sense of founding a harem (at least not back then).

We see this sort of reaffirmed and confirmed by Maegor and Ceryse's second wedding and bedding in Oldtown later on, when he is king. During the years in-between they were effectively divorced or not married.

At least by all proper standards of what makes a marriage a marriage. The Faith might still be of the opinion that the marriage was never formally dissolved, etc.

[The Grey Wolf]

@Ran

I checked the SSM and in it GRRM says "divorce simply isn't common", not that it doesn't exist.

Source: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/