Why do you all hate Sansa Stark?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

42 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

No need to. Just pay attention. Kelly Tran and  Leslie Jones  ditching tweeter due to harassment. Factions like the sad puppies and rabid puppies at the hugos.  Gamergate and hiding rabid sexism and misogyny (like doxxing and public threats of rape) as "ethics in journalism."
Sansa is just a byproduct of that. In the book, she starts as a mildly entitled little girl who does not have any experience playing the game and thusly becomes a pawn for those who do. I assume her arc will have her growing stronger in the next book and finding herself 

Also, the hate directed at Cat often comes from a similar place I think.

[The Commentator]

On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 2:43 PM, manchester_babe said:

Why do all hate Sansa Stark she's just a little girl?

I'm just not a fan of hers.  

Personal preferences influence who we like or don't like.   

On ‎10‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 3:38 AM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

We're meant to dislike Sansa at the beginning of the series. We see her and contrast her with Arya, and naturally take the side of the precocious, tomboy underdog against the spoilt airhead. As the books progress, and she wises up, we're meant to start rooting for her.

I don't think many people on here "hate" her as such, though some are overly harsh on her given her age and very limited options throughout.  

I do hate Sansa but I am aware that she is a better human being than her sister, Arya.  

[The Commentator]

5 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Also, the hate directed at Cat often comes from a similar place I think.

There is no denying that sexism exists in the fandom.  The victims are normally Catelyn, Daenerys, Sansa, Brienne, and Cersei.  Just looking at Cersei and Catelyn as examples.  It is rather surprising that these women get more blame for the ensuing war than Jaime and Robb.  

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It is rather surprising that these women get more blame for the ensuing war than Jaime and Robb.

Or Tywin, for example, who actually started the thing.

[Angel Eyes]

51 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He did say it was a real possibility that he might die before he finishes 

That’s what I’m saying.

[White Ravens]

On 10/17/2018 at 1:08 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

The deep seated misogyny of sci-fi/fantasy fans.  

 

Ding! Ding! Ding!

6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Extrapolate. 

 

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

No need to. Just pay attention. Kelly Tran and  Leslie Jones  ditching tweeter due to harassment. Factions like the sad puppies and rabid puppies at the hugos.  Gamergate and hiding rabid sexism and misogyny (like doxxing and public threats of rape) as "ethics in journalism."
Sansa is just a byproduct of that. In the book, she starts as a mildly entitled little girl who does not have any experience playing the game and thusly becomes a pawn for those who do. I assume her arc will have her growing stronger in the next book and finding herself 

     100%

24 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Also, the hate directed at Cat often comes from a similar place I think.

If she had an email address she would be getting death and/or rape threats from behind the veil of internet anonymity. 

15 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

There is no denying that sexism exists in the fandom.  The victims are normally Catelyn, Daenerys, Sansa, Brienne, and Cersei.  Just looking at Cersei and Catelyn as examples.  It is rather surprising that these women get more blame for the ensuing war than Jaime and Robb.  

The majority of hate threads do tend to be directed at female characters. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

22 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The victims are normally Catelyn, Daenerys, Sansa, Brienne, and Cersei.

Catelyn - proxy for people's mothers.

Daenerys and Sansa - proxies for the pretty girls that never looked their way at school

Brienne and Cersei - proxies for women who dare to think they can do what men do as well as them.

[Brazenburn]

15 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

There is no denying that sexism exists in the fandom.  The victims are normally Catelyn, Daenerys, Sansa, Brienne, and Cersei.  Just looking at Cersei and Catelyn as examples.  It is rather surprising that these women get more blame for the ensuing war than Jaime and Robb.  

I'll disagree slightly here. Catelyn? Yes, the blame for the war is clearly unjustified. Cersei? No, no, no. Although probably not the entire cause of war, she certainly escalated it by orchestrating Robert's death. Sexism of course exists in the fandom (where doesn't it?) I think it sidesteps the issues to claim the the Sansa-hate is completely motivated by sexism.

Sansa simply isn't a very good character, at least at first. Later on, she's definitely getting better, but I absolutely could not stand to read her chapters in AGoT. So boring and childish, and nauseatingly saccharine. Even when it was obvious that Cersei was a raving psychopath, Joffrey a sadistic and whiny little shit, and the other people in King's Landing (excepting Littlefinger and Varys, of course) are absolutely clueless, she still basically trusted them better than her own father, who is basically the most trustworthy character in the series.

Same goes for Catelyn: I don't like her because she is absolutely horrible to Jon ("It should have been you") and also seems incapable of trusting anybody after Ned dies. People were shocked when they see what she becomes in Lady Stoneheart, but I honestly just saw it as the final manifestation of paranoia and bitterness that she'd been expressing since ACoK.

Not that I have anything against female characters; I love Danaerys' story arc more than most other characters (yes, including Meereen) and Arya always gets me excited. Plus all the minor characters: Gilly earns honorable mention for Most Interesting Minor Character (after Belwas, of course) in my book. I just get pissed when people throw around "sexism" as a rebuttal for a sub-par character being  denounced as such.

[Mindrot]

7 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Catelyn - proxy for people's mothers.

Daenerys and Sansa - proxies for the pretty girls that never looked their way at school

Brienne and Cersei - proxies for women who dare to think they can do what men do as well as them.

Please please please do not add Cersei to this list.  She is a horrible fucking person through and through.  People have said before "well she loved her children at least".... which is NOT TRUE, she only loved that they were extensions of her.  She has NO redeeming features, and it is so clear in her POV's that she is utterly and totally evil.  

Also the majority of people that I knew who read the books think Arya is their favorite character (she is mine), who is tomboyish, but clearly a girl. 

[Angel Eyes]

I dislike Cersei because she’s a narcissistic, hypocritical jerk.

• She only loves her children as extensions of herself, 
• She claims to love Jaime but had no problem with cheating on him with Lancel (plus Kettleblacks), not to mention her crush on Rhaegar
• She complains about being forced into a marriage and Robert’s womanizing, abusive ways, but has no problem with forcing Sansa to marry Joffrey. To Cersei, misogyny is only misogyny when it’s directed at her.
• Cersei resents Robert for saying “Lyanna” during their wedding night. She slept with Jaime that morning.
• And then she starts throwing people to Qyburn just because.

To get back on topic: I don’t dislike Sansa, I dislike the fact that it’s talked about how intelligent she is and she hasn’t done anything with it. Given how much time it’s been since she appeared in a book (it’s been 13 years since AFFC), we likely never will. Plus, I don’t want to see her become a manipulative nutcase like Cersei. One incompetent narcissist is enough.

[Lord Varys]

59 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Please please please do not add Cersei to this list.  She is a horrible fucking person through and through.  People have said before "well she loved her children at least".... which is NOT TRUE, she only loved that they were extensions of her.  She has NO redeeming features, and it is so clear in her POV's that she is utterly and totally evil.  

Also the majority of people that I knew who read the books think Arya is their favorite character (she is mine), who is tomboyish, but clearly a girl. 

LOL, no. And Arya was sympathetic up until she had Weese being ripped apart by his fucking dog. Weasel soup and the Bolton man drowning on his blood have her in psycho-killer territory for me.

46 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I dislike Cersei because she’s a narcissistic, hypocritical jerk.

You have to see things in context there. People suffering things don't have to reflect on them. If I was married to Robert I'd likely behave somewhat like Cersei, too, especially if I were in a position of power and could finally do some abuse myself. That's why many people who suffered (sexual) abuse return to favor if they can. You learn how to do it when you suffer it. And Cersei was sexually abused throughout her entire marriage.

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• She only loves her children as extensions of herself.

She loves them more than Jaime. Jaime doesn't give a fig about any of his children. He insisted on fucking his sister in front of the corpse of their own son!

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• She claims to love Jaime but had no problem with cheating on him with Lancel (plus Kettleblacks), not to mention her crush on Rhaegar

LOL, so you cannot have a crush when you are in love with somebody else? Give me a break! And Cersei was preteen back then, anyway. Can preteens truly be in love? And it is a crime to be interested not only in your brother? The true love incest thing only started later. Preteen Jaime could even properly ejaculate.

Jaime the moron later abandoned Cersei and his children to avenge/free fucking Tyrion. Cersei was alone and had to deal with Robert, Ned, Stannis, and Renly. She only turned to Lancel and the other men because Jaime had abandoned her - and might be effectively dead already. Life continues even if your beloved twin brother isn't there.

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• She complains about being forced into a marriage and Robert’s womanizing, abusive ways, but has no problem with forcing Sansa to marry Joffrey. To Cersei, misogyny is only misogyny when it’s directed at her.

No, Cersei just returns the favor. She repeats the circle of abuse and violence as many victims of abuse do. You are under no moral obligation to be nice to people just because other people weren't nice to you.

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• And then she starts throwing people to Qyburn just because.

Oh, she actually knows that this is bad and she actually empathizes there. That's why she has to push away what happened to Senelle and Falyse, etc. A proper psychopath would have no issue with that at all. She would act like Qyburn does. Smiling and joking while referring to very horrible things he did just half an hour ago. Cersei doesn't do this.

Sansa is never going to be a real player unless she is going to play Humbert Humbert. She is still a fourteen-year-old and this isn't a world which allows minor women to wield any power. Even if she ended up inheriting Winterfell or another great seat, the men around her would still call the shots. And I very much doubt they would seek her advice on matters that count - like fighting wars and the like.

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

45 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Please please please do not add Cersei to this list.  She is a horrible fucking person through and through.  People have said before "well she loved her children at least".... which is NOT TRUE, she only loved that they were extensions of her.  She has NO redeeming features, and it is so clear in her POV's that she is utterly and totally evil.

Sorry, I probably didn't explain myself properly, mostly because I was being purposely glib.

Criticisms of those characters are obviously valid, particularly in Cersei's case. She's got so many obvious flaws, I won't list all of them. She's certainly sadistic, narcissistic, and vicious. @Lord Varys has explained well why she is why she is. But yeah, she is those things, and plenty more. She's done reprehensible things. 

However, a lot of the criticism of her in the fandom is actually condescending. She's derided for being out of her depth in politics, for grinding Robert down, for not staying faithful to Jaime  (as if remaining in a monogamous relationship with your BROTHER would somehow be virtuous ), for being ruthless  (when we celebrate that in male characters, and criticise the lack of it in other male characters ).

I'm not having a go. You could probably find a plethora of examples of me saying such things on here without thinking.

My point is that often the negative emotions Cersei triggers in us don't necessarily come from a good place. What we do is see Cersei taking a man's place in the world, and take pleasure in her failing at it. 

 

 

[wia]

She isn't very bright, so reading her chapters before she runs off with Littlefinger is a chore. I don't hate her, just don't particularly like her.

[Lord Varys]

The most ridiculous thing in relation to this Cersei thing is that she loves others only as extensions of herself. She dotes on Joffrey like any mother does. He is her favorite and that's why he gets away with what he does. And what drives her when Tommen is forced to step in for Joff is that he is not up to the task - which definitely is correct while he is eight. Parents not finding the proper way to prepare their children for their future - especially if nobody prepared them to rule, either - is not a sign that they are bad parents, either.

Not to mention that dealing with the sudden death of your eldest son and father at the hands of your brother should also be a rather tough nut to crack. That you are not on your best afterwards, and use certain destructive tendencies in your character to blow off steam is hardly surprising.

Cersei is a very ugly person, but she really loves Jaime and her children. And she wants what's best for them.

And if you check Lannister history then Lord Gerold must also have been a terrible father considering that he didn't properly train Tytos to rule, no?

[Mindrot]

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Not sure if just trolling with a few of these but here we go:

You remember the men that captured Arya right?  Do you think she should have any mercy on them or the people that are associated with them?  In her mind they are the enemy, the people that killed her father.  Also they were cruel and generally shitty people in the first place, good riddence to them IMO.

Like the person said before, trying to say that ROBERT was the problem in the Robert/Cersei marriage?  She fucked her brother on her wedding day, how is that not abuse that Robert had to endure during the marriage?  Because he did not know?  Cersei knew, and Cersei specifically is NOT FUCKING Robert because she hates him.  Why do people get mad when he is fucking barmaids and stuff?  Who is he suppose to fuck?  Her name is Cersei, and she denys him at every turn FOR HER OWN REASONS (justifying to herself that its Roberts fault, but clearly looking at the situation, SHE is at fault).

True, Jaime has no special love for his children, but lets remember a big reason why this is?  Cersei.  She was afraid if he doted on the children people would put 2 and 2 together.  Jaime has always said "Fuck everyone else, lets tell them what we do, I am ok with it" and who is it that wants to keep it a secret?  Who is it that wants to keep her power?  Cersei Fucking Lannister.  Also we were not talking about Jaime, Jaime clearly shows love for Cersei, and later clearly shows love for Brienne (different type of love mostly, but still there).  His love for Brienne is not because she is somehow valuable to him or is something he can use.  It is genuine.  Was Cersei's love for Jaime ever truly genuine?  It seemed to evaporate pretty fucking quickly when Jaime was captured.  Out of sight, out of mind they say.  Also when Jaime comes back, he comes back maimed, and therefor no longer good enough for Jaime.  Lets not forget that she entirely forgets about Jaime until her ass is in prison and she needs him to fight for her "I love you, I love you, I love you"  Bullshit.  

 

She repeats the same circle of abuse and violence?  SINCE FUCKING WHEN?  She was abused as a little girl?  no, she abused as a pre-teen? No.  She was married to THE FUCKING KING and HAD TO BE QUEEN, and thats when her abuse started?  Robert clearly wanted nothing to do with Cersei besides his "Kingly Rights", "rights" which she refused him as often as possible, driving him to bed common women.  Now was Robert always going to bed common women?  Yes, he is lecherous, but he is also the KING, he does not follow the same rules as everyone else.  What did Cersei do to become Queen?  She had a political intelligent father.  What did Robert have to do to become King?  He won a war.  One of these 2 things is not quite the same as the other.  Cersei is the FONT of violence and abuse to the people around her, the only person that EVER, EVER abused Cersei is Robert.  And its clear with the fact that she murdered her childhood friend because she was crushing on Jaime also, she was ALWAYS A MONSTER.  DO not blame Robert.

Your point about Qyburn is funny.  She still sends them doesnt she?  She could be sending rapists and murderers from the jail, but she sends people that are potential problems for her, such a kind and generous heart.  Fucking please.

 

In closing, she was always the Monster (remember her almost twisting Tyrions dick off when he was an infant?  She woulda been like 5?) 

 

[zandru]

33 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

She woulda been like 5?

I believe Jaime and Cersei were 7. Still inexcuseable, though.

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Catelyn - proxy for people's mothers.

Daenerys and Sansa - proxies for the pretty girls that never looked their way at school

Brienne and Cersei - proxies for women who dare to think they can do what men do as well as them.

Lol

 

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

You remember the men that captured Arya right?  Do you think she should have any mercy on them or the people that are associated with them?  In her mind they are the enemy, the people that killed her father.  Also they were cruel and generally shitty people in the first place, good riddence to them IMO.

I don't care what Arya suffered through, I just say she behaves like a psycho-killer. And that's how she behaves. Weese has just beaten her up. So what? This is a hard world. He didn't deserve to die for that, no? Neither did a considerable number of Arya's later killings, especially the Northman she killed, Dareon, and insurance guy. And while Raff might be deserving to die Arya crossed the line to psychopathic serial killer completely when she killed him the way she did.

8 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Like the person said before, trying to say that ROBERT was the problem in the Robert/Cersei marriage?  She fucked her brother on her wedding day, how is that not abuse that Robert had to endure during the marriage?  Because he did not know?  Cersei knew, and Cersei specifically is NOT FUCKING Robert because she hates him.  Why do people get mad when he is fucking barmaids and stuff?  Who is he suppose to fuck?  Her name is Cersei, and she denys him at every turn FOR HER OWN REASONS (justifying to herself that its Roberts fault, but clearly looking at the situation, SHE is at fault).

Robert fucks who he wants since he knows what to do with his cock. He didn't need Cersei to start this behavior. He wasn't faithful to her, never intended to be, and Lyanna expected him not to be faithful to her, either.

Their's is a so-called arranged marriage. They do not love each other and they never pretended to. Cersei fucked Jaime and Robert fucked countless women. But it is clear that Cersei had considered stopping the Jaime thing and stick to her royal husband if he hadn't been the drunken fool he was. Robert Baratheon had no intention whatsoever to remain faithful to the most beautiful woman of his generation.

8 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

True, Jaime has no special love for his children, but lets remember a big reason why this is?  Cersei.  She was afraid if he doted on the children people would put 2 and 2 together.  Jaime has always said "Fuck everyone else, lets tell them what we do, I am ok with it" and who is it that wants to keep it a secret?  Who is it that wants to keep her power?  Cersei Fucking Lannister.  Also we were not talking about Jaime, Jaime clearly shows love for Cersei, and later clearly shows love for Brienne (different type of love mostly, but still there).  His love for Brienne is not because she is somehow valuable to him or is something he can use.  It is genuine.  Was Cersei's love for Jaime ever truly genuine?  It seemed to evaporate pretty fucking quickly when Jaime was captured.  Out of sight, out of mind they say.  Also when Jaime comes back, he comes back maimed, and therefor no longer good enough for Jaime.  Lets not forget that she entirely forgets about Jaime until her ass is in prison and she needs him to fight for her "I love you, I love you, I love you"  Bullshit.  

I don't have to play the father to my nieces and nephew to feel emotionally close to them. Do you? They are my nieces and nephew. And Jaime Lannister was around his children/niece/nephews never mind what Cersei wanted him to do. He was their uncle and one of the Kingsguard. He was around them the entire time. Tyrion likes Cersei's children and he didn't even live permanently at court.

If you don't form an attachment to your own children under such circumstances then something is VERY WRONG with the way you process emotions.

8 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

She repeats the same circle of abuse and violence?  SINCE FUCKING WHEN?  She was abused as a little girl?  no, she abused as a pre-teen? No. 

She had Tywin Lannister as a father and lost her mother at very early age. On the emotional level she didn't have a fairy-tale childhood.

8 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

She was married to THE FUCKING KING and HAD TO BE QUEEN, and thats when her abuse started?  Robert clearly wanted nothing to do with Cersei besides his "Kingly Rights", "rights" which she refused him as often as possible, driving him to bed common women.  Now was Robert always going to bed common women?  Yes, he is lecherous, but he is also the KING, he does not follow the same rules as everyone else.  What did Cersei do to become Queen?  She had a political intelligent father.  What did Robert have to do to become King?  He won a war.  One of these 2 things is not quite the same as the other.  Cersei is the FONT of violence and abuse to the people around her, the only person that EVER, EVER abused Cersei is Robert.  And its clear with the fact that she murdered her childhood friend because she was crushing on Jaime also, she was ALWAYS A MONSTER.  DO not blame Robert.

If you don't understand why it is shitty to be raped - and Cersei was raped by Robert whenever they had sex - by your husband then you should stay out of this discussion.

Cersei may have killed Melara - or she may have allowed her to die. It is not clear at this point whether she was pushed in the well by Cersei or not. But this and of itself doesn't make Cersei a serial killer - like Arya, say.

8 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Your point about Qyburn is funny.  She still sends them doesnt she?  She could be sending rapists and murderers from the jail, but she sends people that are potential problems for her, such a kind and generous heart.  Fucking please.

I didn't say this is a good thing, I just pointed out that Cersei herself understands what this means and actually feels that this is very wrong on an emotional level. That is not the behavior of a monster or psychopath. At least not one at the end of the spectrum. Cersei has her issues. But she still loves Jaime and her children. That's not pretend. And Jaime is not an extension of herself or any such crap - he is her twin, the person she was closest since before her birth. They also have the romantic/sexual aspect of their love but they are also twins. Cersei very much fears for the lives of Jaime and her children. 

8 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

In closing, she was always the Monster (remember her almost twisting Tyrions dick off when he was an infant?  She woulda been like 5?) 

Tyrion is a monster. He looks like it, and he killed Cersei's mother. She lost her mother and got a hideous, twisted thing for a brother. I don't blame her for not liking this creature. Especially as a child. I cannot contemplate what I would have done if I had lost my mother in exchange for a sibling I did not want. Do you? In a world that has not yet overcome making executions a public festival and still makes fulls and clowns out of creatures like Tyrion, selling them to a circus.

[The Mother of The Others]

I dislike people without checking their genitals first.   It's based more on what they do.

The way Sansa Hate actually worked back before twitter is you'd read the books and sansa was written annoying, so you were correctly annoyed with her.  But that was it.  You were still fine with the character because you liked all the POVs, because you liked the story......

Then you came on here and saw all these bizarre claims being made about the character.   Basically, that she was a lot like Jesus.   And she bore zero responsibility for what went down.   Stuff like that.  Which made you reply something along the lines of, "What the hell ?"    At which point several people informed you that you were a bad man.   THEN you start to dislike the character.  And post something to irk the other camp.   Which made you a misogynist.  And it felt right.  Because it was.   Situationally, it was the equal and opposite reaction called for by internet physics.

.....then the chatboard had an influx of dongs, so most of the more active contributors were now slanted the other way on Sansa than when I first arrived..... Then you got to see how 'team misogyny ' (guys) are also distorted in their views on the character.  Their statements also cried out for correction.  So in the end you back away from caring too much about what anybody on here says, and sanity slowly but surely returns, and you can at last go back to just simply enjoying the story and the characters in it once more.  A whirlwind journey that lands the traveller back on their own doorstep weary and wizened and whipped and wokenated and willfully worryfree.

[Kandrax]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

she had Weese being ripped apart by his fucking dog. Weasel soup and the Bolton man drowning on his blood have her in psycho-killer territory for me.

1) How could she know in which way will Jaqen kill him?

2) What is bad about Weasel soup? Amory's soldiers getting killed by Bloody Mummers? That would happen without her.

3) How would you deal with a Bolton man if you were in her place?