How does nobody spot that Jeyne Poole isn’t Arya Stark?

[bemused]

Quote

 

"Cat." He considered. "Yes. Braavos is full of cats. One more will not be noticed. You are Cat, an orphan of . . ."

"King's Landing." She had visited White Harbor with her father twice, but she knew King's Landing better. ...AFFC, Arya II

 

Oops! @Lynesse beat me to it, above...

 Wyman at least would have had a good look at her. His beloved granddaughter is close in age to Arya ...Even if visitors to WF might have overlooked a little tomboy (and I'm not sure all would).. It sounds like Arya alone visited with her father on the occasions she mentions and I wonder if  a friendship between the two spunky girls was not being indulged, besides any business, of course.

So I'd say that all the leaders know, once they'd seen her and had a chance to compare notes.

[Lynesse]

A Stark bannerman - who would naturally be interested in making a good marriage match for his children - wouldn't even have to take that close of a look at Arya to notice that she is the one Stark child (aside from Jon) who looks very much like Ned, with the long, solemn (as, ironically, Jeyne Poole herself used to put it) "horseface".

The idea that a visiting lord wouldn't have seen Arya doesn't have much support in the text. We have an example at the very beginning of AGOT when Robert's party arrives: "Then the children had been brought forward, introduced, and approved of by both sides." AGOT, Eddard I. Which to me suggests that introducing the children is part of the protocol. There are more examples of this, as when in AGOT Bran is present at Robb's feast for the Karstarks.

[bemused]

18 minutes ago, Lynesse said:

The idea that a visiting lord wouldn't have seen Arya doesn't have much support in the text. We have an example at the very beginning of AGOT when Robert's party arrives: "Then the children had been brought forward, introduced, and approved of by both sides." AGOT, Eddard I. Which to me suggests that introducing the children is part of the protocol. There are more examples of this, as when in AGOT Bran is present at Robb's feast for the Karstarks.

I agree. Oh,with all the men who've been killed, there will be fewer who'd had a good look at her among the regular men. But I think all the leaders, at least, will know.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Jon is clearly not on Bolton side, his word could be interpreted as a lie to destabilize his enemy. Rickon too, and hes just a baby. Sansa is not really a person. Alayne may come without a wolf and say fAryas no Stark but she'll first have to convince them that she is. Petyrs word too, isnt nearly as good as Theons. 

What festivals? There are hardly any singers or tourneys in Winterfell. If Wyman and them had noticed Arya in the past I feel like itd have been brought up. Besides Jeyne was a regular face in Winterfell, hardly ever leaving Sansas side

When Robb was describing Roose to Bran it seemed like this was the first time the kids met him, as they think back on Old Nans tales of skins.

But yea. My Lord vs m'lord. That definitely happend for a reason. Strange stuff

I'm thinking Theon's word might be no good at all because he was the one who gave fArya away in the first place, and now he suddenly realizes she's fake? Jon was closest to the real Arya growing up, and as far as anybody knows, Arya is the last surviving Stark, so it would be very cruel for him to deny her identity just to thwart the Boltons. Sansa, of course, would have to publicly declare herself again, which can only happen once it is safe for her to do so. And it will have to be verified by people who recognize her on sight, which would be Petyr at the moment, but there are others as well. Once her ID is established, however, she would be in the best position of all to out Jeyne as a fake. And Petyr, of course, was the one who took Jeyne in, trained her in the Seven Sighs and conspired in the whole fArya fraud in the first place, so if he came clean about that there is little reason to doubt him, since he has no obvious axe to grind against the Boltons. But as I said, he will only do that if it suits his purposes.

Medieval culture was steeped in all kinds of festivals. Harvest festivals, winter festivals, spring festivals... Note:

Quote

Bran II, Clash

There were guests in Winterfell, visitors come for the harvest feast.

snip

"The feast makes a pleasant pretext," Ser Rodrick explained, "but a man does not cross a hundred leagues for a sliver of duck and a sip of wine. Only those who have matters of import to set before us are like to make the journey."

Later we learn that Manderly is there, Lady Hornwood, Umbers, Glovers, Tallharts… They are all there to discuss the war and other matters, and pay respects to the sitting lord and, at the moment at least, heir to their new kingdom. If this had been normal times, of course they would have taken an interest in Lord Eddard's children, all of them. They are all hoping to marry their own children into the ruling house some day. It was one of the key ways to bring honor, prestige and most of all wealth to their own house.

 

[The Commentator]

On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 11:52 PM, Fire Eater said:

Not everyone has been to WF regularly. Some like Mors Umber, up until ACoK, haven't visited in years, and when they did visit, it was briefly. Not everyone would recognize Arya. 

The biggest factor is that Bolton is in power with the backing of King's Landing, and no one wants to do anything that risks his wroth, so they just play along. 

Give Roose Bolton a chance, people.  He's the kind of leader you need to fight the WWs.  He doesn't have family attachments to compromise his decisions.  

[Angel Eyes]

6 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Give Roose Bolton a chance, people.  He's the kind of leader you need to fight the WWs.  He doesn't have family attachments to compromise his decisions.  

That’s an if. Doesn’t seem to believe in them or show any preparations. And then there’s Ramsay, who uses food reserves for a feast. Not smart.

[John Suburbs]

11 hours ago, dmfn said:

I'm not sure about the killing part, but I wondered the same about Roose. Wondered even more after he made a Lyanna reference, considering people say Arya and Lyanna resembled each other. 

Jaime confirms his intent to Illyn Payne in Feast:

Quote

"As I was fucking her, Cersei cried 'I want.' I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead." The things I do for love. "It was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first..."

Yes, the Lyanna resemblance too, which makes me believe that Roose has not seen Arya before, or at least not in a while. In all fairness, though, it's not like other people instantly think of Lyanna whenever they see Arya. Ned only makes the connection after one of their talks in King's Landing. This is unlike Renly, who looks like Robert reborn, and even Gendry who is the spitting image of Renly once he grows a beard.

And as mentioned earlier in this thread, both Robb nor Bran discuss Roose as if neither of them has ever met him before. So I think it's fair to say he has not been a welcome presence in Winterfell under Lord Eddard.

[wia]

They way I see it is that every single northern lord that has seen f!Arya knows that she is fake. Even if they don't remember how the real Arya looked like, the age is wrong, the face is wrong and there's just no way that she'd have brown eyes.

And I guess Roose knows it too, but it doesn't really matter. It's not like Boltons are deriving their current position from this marriage. They get their power from the Lannisters and from having an army mostly unspent compared to their opposing northern lords. 

Not like even Arya being real would have an impact, should the North decide to get rid of Boltons by strength, killing them is no more difficult with Ramsey&Arya marriage than without it.

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm thinking Theon's word might be no good at all because he was the one who gave fArya away in the first place, and now he suddenly realizes she's fake? Jon was closest to the real Arya growing up, and as far as anybody knows, Arya is the last surviving Stark, so it would be very cruel for him to deny her identity just to thwart the Boltons. Sansa, of course, would have to publicly declare herself again, which can only happen once it is safe for her to do so. And it will have to be verified by people who recognize her on sight, which would be Petyr at the moment, but there are others as well. Once her ID is established, however, she would be in the best position of all to out Jeyne as a fake. And Petyr, of course, was the one who took Jeyne in, trained her in the Seven Sighs and conspired in the whole fArya fraud in the first place, so if he came clean about that there is little reason to doubt him, since he has no obvious axe to grind against the Boltons. But as I said, he will only do that if it suits his purposes.

Theons a prisoner. Similar to Jaimes oath to Cat, it was made a swordpoint thusly suspect and arguably void. 

Good catch on the harvest fall, theres the whole Alys Karstark as well. There's a good chance that the majority of the northern lords present not only remember Aryas face but possibly Jeynes as well.  

That didnt stop them from celebrating her marriage; or fighting for Roberts son Tommen.

The Lords know what theyre doing, scheming, the only thing they know how. The game is being played, definitely by Manderly, probably by Dustin, maybe by everyone. 

Rickon the baby will say thats not my sister, but what do 6 year olds really remember? Jons a turncloak traitor bastard warg and such, not cruel but he could gets that persona, like Dany bathing in blood. Even Petyr cant destroy Theons lie, he has no videos and he wont be speaking to every Bolton soldier. 

Alayne is way too similar to Young Griff, whom Arianna is already questioning his lineage, to have a smooth "rebirth". No Lady. No witnesses except Petyr whos the worst witness. Only really Cersri and Tyrion who are far and, lets say undesired

But Reek is changing. I dont know where his arc will lead us but I bet Jeynes involved in it. Anyway, he knows things beyond Arya. He knows Bolton burned winterfell. Once he speaks Boltons ruined.

Also Nymeria would scare the hell outta Jeyne, not Mercy.

[John Suburbs]

20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Theons a prisoner. Similar to Jaimes oath to Cat, it was made a swordpoint thusly suspect and arguably void. 

Good catch on the harvest fall, theres the whole Alys Karstark as well. There's a good chance that the majority of the northern lords present not only remember Aryas face but possibly Jeynes as well.  

That didnt stop them from celebrating her marriage; or fighting for Roberts son Tommen.

The Lords know what theyre doing, scheming, the only thing they know how. The game is being played, definitely by Manderly, probably by Dustin, maybe by everyone. 

Rickon the baby will say thats not my sister, but what do 6 year olds really remember? Jons a turncloak traitor bastard warg and such, not cruel but he could gets that persona, like Dany bathing in blood. Even Petyr cant destroy Theons lie, he has no videos and he wont be speaking to every Bolton soldier. 

Alayne is way too similar to Young Griff, whom Arianna is already questioning his lineage, to have a smooth "rebirth". No Lady. No witnesses except Petyr whos the worst witness. Only really Cersri and Tyrion who are far and, lets say undesired

But Reek is changing. I dont know where his arc will lead us but I bet Jeynes involved in it. Anyway, he knows things beyond Arya. He knows Bolton burned winterfell. Once he speaks Boltons ruined.

Also Nymeria would scare the hell outta Jeyne, not Mercy.

Meh, prisoners generally don't give brides away, and they're not usually allowed to wander around wherever they please. I doubt the northern lords fully appreciate the psychological hold that Rams had on Theon, but even if they did it seems to me that this would cast even more doubt on his word.

There are plenty of others who can verify Sansa's identity besides Cersei, Tyrion and Petyr. Any number of Tyrells, Ser Barriston if he ever returns, Jon, Jaime, Ilyn Payne, multiple lords and ladies of King Joffrey's court... Even Yohn Royce might recognize her with the right hair color.

Jon, if he lives, is Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. His word will not be so easily dismissed.

But, again, I think this is all moot because none of the northern lords are under any illusion that this is Arya.

[FictionIsntReal]

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Ilyn Payne

That would make for two separate illiterate mutes who exposed Bolton lies.

[Hugorfonics]

On 10/19/2018 at 4:54 PM, John Suburbs said:

But, again, I think this is all moot because none of the northern lords are under any illusion that this is Arya.

100%

 

The nearest thing she has to living kin. Theon Greyjoy had grown up with Arya Stark. Theon would have known an imposter. If he was seen to accept Bolton's feigned girl as Arya, the northern lords who had gathered to bear witness to the match would have no grounds to question her legitimacy. Stout and Slate, Whoresbane Umber, the quarrelsome Ryswells, Hornwood men and Cerywn cousins, fat Lord Wyman Manderly … not one of them had known Ned Stark's daughters half so well as he. And if a few entertained private doubts, surely they would be wise enough to keep those misgivings to themselves.

They are using me to cloak their deception, putting mine own face on their lie.

On 10/19/2018 at 4:54 PM, John Suburbs said:

Meh, prisoners generally don't give brides away, and they're not usually allowed to wander around wherever they please. I doubt the northern lords fully appreciate the psychological hold that Rams had on Theon, but even if they did it seems to me that this would cast even more doubt on his word.

I dont think Lucifer can fully appreciate Rams' hold on Theon, but the hold is slipping. (And hes clearly a hostage that everyone hearbs and makes fun of)

As we said, no one belives Theon, no one belives Tommen. But there are rules and laws, even if Bolton perversely mutates them, like Ramsays skinchanging, the rest of the North is putting on the farce like its real. 

Manderlys farce will end when Rickon comes, who knows what the others are planning, but i doubt it's loyalty. Regardless, Theon can end that farce. When the North is publicly confronted with Jeynes Poole identity they wont be in a position to legally back Bolton. Its like pulling spades, forcing their hand.

On 10/19/2018 at 4:54 PM, John Suburbs said:

There are plenty of others who can verify Sansa's identity besides Cersei, Tyrion and Petyr. Any number of Tyrells, Ser Barriston if he ever returns, Jon, Jaime, Ilyn Payne, multiple lords and ladies of King Joffrey's court... Even Yohn Royce might recognize her with the right hair color.

Yohn Royce would totally think its Sansa, but theres a difference between seeing and believing. It wasnt in Royces intrest to fight for Robb, it wont be to fight for Petyr. Nor will the Tyrells or KL want Sansa to fulfill any ambition.

Itll be just as easy for the Lords to call Sansa an imposter then for them to call Jeyne a Stark. Sansa has had a sheltered life, hiding in the red keep most of the time, she could easily be dismissed.

On 10/19/2018 at 4:54 PM, John Suburbs said:

Jon, if he lives, is Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. His word will not be so easily dismissed.

Jon could also possibly live and not be LC. Regardless hes the enemy of the crown, Cersei admitted, as is Sansa and Mrs. Bolton a friend. His word too can be easily dismissed, like Cersei dismissed his letter

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yohn Royce would totally think its Sansa, but theres a difference between seeing and believing. It wasnt in Royces intrest to fight for Robb, it wont be to fight for Petyr. Nor will the Tyrells or KL want Sansa to fulfill any ambition.

Itll be just as easy for the Lords to call Sansa an imposter then for them to call Jeyne a Stark. Sansa has had a sheltered life, hiding in the red keep most of the time, she could easily be dismissed.

True, but I was responding to the notion that only Theon could out Jeyne. All these others could do it, but it is an open question as to whether they would do if presented the opportunity. It all depends on where they are in their own Game of Thrones.

Sansa was not "hiding" in the Red Keep. Plenty of noble lords and ladies took notice of her. She was to be their next queen and then suddenly she was a traitor's daughter. There are many and more who could vouch for her identity.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Jon could also possibly live and not be LC. Regardless hes the enemy of the crown, Cersei admitted, as is Sansa and Mrs. Bolton a friend. His word too can be easily dismissed, like Cersei dismissed his letter

Whether he is or was is irrelevant. He has risen to a position of honor and influence. I don't see what Cersei's opinion has to do with any of this. It's the northern lords who would need convincing -- again, in this utterly hypothetical scenario, since they already know that Jeyne is not Arya.

[Valyrian Lance]

There are more times that a bannerman might have seen a young Arya than just when they alone have visited Winterfell.

1. Harvest Feasts - one that Bran throws has many Lords show up. Since there seems to be multiple harvests in a season cycle, how many harvests has Arya seen?

2.  When Ned/Arya visit other Lords - Arya has visited White Harbor twice with her father. How many times has she visited Castle Cerwyn or Barrowton or Torrhen Square?

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

There are more times that a bannerman might have seen a young Arya than just when they alone have visited Winterfell.

1. Harvest Feasts - one that Bran throws has many Lords show up. Since there seems to be multiple harvests in a season cycle, how many harvests has Arya seen?

2.  When Ned/Arya visit other Lords - Arya has visited White Harbor twice with her father. How many times has she visited Castle Cerwyn or Barrowton or Torrhen Square?

I think an awful lot of posters are seriously estimating people's capacity for observation and memory.  It has been over two years since anybody in the North has seen Arya, and they don't have photographs (or any other pictures) to jog their memory of what she looks like.  Given that she was the younger daughter, and well under even betrothal age, it is unlikely that they payed close attention to her.  Robb, Sansa, and even Bran would have been of greater interest.

Also, most of the Lords and their heirs are dead.  Cerwyn, Hornwood, Tallheart are all dead.  Lord Hornwood is a guy named Ramsay Bolton.  Umber is a prisoner.  Glover and Mormonts are absent, and in any event, Robett Glover was face to face with Arya and didn't recognize her, nor did she expect him to.

There are many reasons to visit White Harbour besides the Manderlys.  It is a major port, as well as the North's only city and its commercial center.  The trips were probably for shopping, catching a show, seeing the sights,, etc.  While I expect a visit with the Manderlys was on the schedule, I doubt that that was the primary purpose.  Cerwyn is a possibility, but remember that both the Lord and his heir are dead.  Barrowton and Torrhen's Square are a long ways away, and I doubt that Ned would have taken his 8-year-old daughter along with him.

I am not saying that they definitely don't recognize her as a fake.  They very well might.  What I am saying is that there is a perfectly good case for them not being able to tell that she is fake.   George has essentially left his options to go either way.  Of course, given that Jeyne is no longer there, and we no longer have a POV there either, we may never find out for sure. 

[Valyrian Lance]

13 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think an awful lot of posters are seriously estimating people's capacity for observation and memory.  It has been over two years since anybody in the North has seen Arya, and they don't have photographs (or any other pictures) to jog their memory of what she looks like.  Given that she was the younger daughter, and well under even betrothal age, it is unlikely that they payed close attention to her.  Robb, Sansa, and even Bran would have been of greater interest.

Also, most of the Lords and their heirs are dead.  Cerwyn, Hornwood, Tallheart are all dead.  Lord Hornwood is a guy named Ramsay Bolton.  Umber is a prisoner.  Glover and Mormonts are absent, and in any event, Robett Glover was face to face with Arya and didn't recognize her, nor did she expect him to.

There are many reasons to visit White Harbour besides the Manderlys.  It is a major port, as well as the North's only city and its commercial center.  The trips were probably for shopping, catching a show, seeing the sights,, etc.  While I expect a visit with the Manderlys was on the schedule, I doubt that that was the primary purpose.  Cerwyn is a possibility, but remember that both the Lord and his heir are dead.  Barrowton and Torrhen's Square are a long ways away, and I doubt that Ned would have taken his 8-year-old daughter along with him.

I am not saying that they definitely don't recognize her as a fake.  They very well might.  What I am saying is that there is a perfectly good case for them not being able to tell that she is fake.   George has essentially left his options to go either way.  Of course, given that Jeyne is no longer there, and we no longer have a POV there either, we may never find out for sure. 

I agree to a point. I think there is also underestimating on how much attention a bannerman or a bannerman's family would place on the high Lord's family, even 2nd daughters. 'Tis the nature of these arguments.

The story has made it abundantly clear that very few people ever recognize Arya. Many mistake her for a boy. Harwin didn't recognize her at first. Neither did the Hound. Glover, Bolton, didn't matter. Having said that, it isn't quite the same scenario.

I think the argument that people should recognize that Jeyne is fake is not in that she doesn't look like what they remember Arya to look like, but that she doesn't look like what they expect Arya to look like.

[zandru]

2 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

The story has made it abundantly clear that very few people ever recognize Arya. Many mistake her for a boy. Harwin didn't recognize her at first.

And that's key. Harwin, as son of the Master of Horse, would have seen Arya ALL THE TIME. But by the time he and the Brotherhood w/o Banners encountered her in the Riverlands, she was 2-3 years older. This makes a really big difference, since children's appearences can change rapidly at that young age. Plus, she wasn't dressed "as expected" and she was dirty and ragged to boot, with short-cropped hair. Also, in the company of a couple of lowborn boys.

Now Jeyne, as "Arya", is dressed right, in Stark colors and nice clothing. She has the northern accent and habits, knows a lot about Winterfell. She's in the company of a big Lannister guard (later Bolton). She's being treated with the respect due a lady of a Great House. So, using the amazing features of the human brain, she "looks like" Arya Stark.

I would fully believe that at least a few of the northern lords are suspicious. They already hate the Boltons. But as for "recognizing" that Arya is fake - none of them ever saw Arya much. She was dressed like a boy most of the time, and off in the stables, or watching men fight in the yard, or otherwise blending in to the interesting things going on, and NOT sitting with the ladies, sewing with the little girls, doing the wine & lemon cakes thing, as Sansa always did. Arya would have been introduced, along with a pack of other children, supervisory servants, and the like, and would then largely disappear.

[Lollygag]

I’m unsure as to how to treat the recognition issue as one of my biggest problems with the series lies in with how characters are or are not recognized. It just doesn’t reflect real-life experience for whatever reason.

Ned at first doesn’t recognize Rodrik who he sees all of the time and just saw a few weeks ago just because he’s shaved and was not expecting to see him. Varys employs the people believe what they expect to believe waaayyyyyy beyond believability. Dying Sansa’s hair is for some reason completely sufficient to hide her because LF also buys into the Varys people believe what they expect to see stuff stretched to the point of nonsense. I don't buy any of this.

Doesn’t work for real life experience unless one is exceptionally bad at remembering faces and/or just generally unobservant.

I think some people are making equivalencies between lords not paying attention to their liege Lord’s kids who will one day rule over them and/or their kids and rl parents not paying close attention to the other kids at the birthday party. Not the same thing. I don't doubt some who are less bright aren't paying attention, but it's a *very* bad idea. It leaves a very bad impression if you don't remember someone you've encountered before and in Westeros where those kids are an untimely death from being your own rulers, that's a very stupid move. Alys Karstark remembered Jon the bastard and was able to charm him for it with memories of dances. Smart girl.

Tell a kid who may well rule over you in a short time "wait, which one are you?" or worse, to mix them up "Oh wait! I got it now! I thought you were Jon!" or "Oh, that's right. Bran's the crippled one!" Great way to make an impression. In real life business practice, this is very bad, in Westeros, it's even worse if you get someone who offends easily and holds grudges.

As GRRM mentions Theon bringing up Arya's recognition issue over and over and over... I have to go with some do recognize her as fake as this doesn't make any sense otherwise.

 

 

[wia]

I think the point is not
- can people look at Arya and recognize her as Arya?
or
- can people remember how Arya looked like?
but
- can people look at brown-eyed Jeyne Poole and believe that she's Arya, the daughter of grey-eyed Ned Stak and blue-eyed Cat Tully?

[zandru]

1 hour ago, wia said:

can people look at brown-eyed Jeyne Poole and believe that she's Arya, the daughter of grey-eyed Ned Stak and blue-eyed Cat Tully?

Well, do people always notice eye color? Of Jeyne? Of Arya? Of Ned? or Cat? I'm thinking not. Also, brown is a dominant color (in humans), if I recall properly. It would be less weird to see a brown-eyed offspring of blue-eyed folks than a blue-eyed offspring from two pairs of brown eyes. Theon makes a big deal of Jeyne's eye color, but Theon knew both Arya and Jeyne well, and Theon has his own issues.

As for brown hair, well most Anglos have hair that's some shade of brown. Not a very distinguishing characteristic.