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Lady Winter Rose

Will Jon be Dany's heir

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Dany will have no heir and get chucked off the throne, leading to the succession crisis that will result in Tyrion and Sansa winning a Great Council.

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On 11/26/2018 at 5:12 PM, Starkz said:

Ok... kind of an off-topic comment you just made. Aegon is the rightful heir which I’ve been saying not any half breed. The last person Viserys would want on the Throne is Dany. She signed off on his death and is responsible for it. If it came down to it I bet Viserys would choose a Half Stark Half Targ over Dany.

I don’t think so.  Viserys would choose his sister over anybody.

About Aegon.  Well, he has a mountain-sized hurdle of proving his identity.

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2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I don’t think so.  Viserys would choose his sister over anybody.

About Aegon.  Well, he has a mountain-sized hurdle of proving his identity.

Viserys would choose his sister whom was responsibile in his death to be his heir? No. Aegon proving his identity isn’t as complex as you all claim for it to be. Aegon has numerous well known people, or entities vouching for him, a solid back story and Aegon looks like and acts like a Targaryen.

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1 hour ago, Starkz said:

 No. Aegon proving his identity isn’t as complex as you all claim for it to be. Aegon has numerous well known people, or entities vouching for him, a solid back story and Aegon looks like and acts like a Targaryen.

You keep confusing “well known” with trusted. Simply being known by the public is not the same thing as being trusted by the public. Most of the people you’ve listed as being sure to vouch for his supposed identity  haven’t a grand reputation in Westeros. And one of the person you’ve cited isn’t even likely really well known to the people of Westeros all together-Illaryio is a powerful magister in penthos-it would seem odd if the average nobleman would know of the man. The golden company is a company founded by people to usurp house Targyren. Varys is a foreign eunuch, whose an oath breaker. The only person whose possibly going to be seen as possibly credible that you’ve listed is Jon Connington. Rheagar’s old friend. But he too has reason to lie and go with a charade given he succeeds he would no longer be an exile. 

The Valaryian look of purple eyes and white was never exclusive to the Targyens. Thanks to Valaryian imperialism. You could point to a random boy from Lys and odds are he’d look just as “Targyen” as Aegon.  And  so far we’ve seen he acts like a the typical nobleman whose also teenager. There’s nothing in his behavior that screams “Targyen”. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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On 11/29/2018 at 4:24 PM, Starkz said:

Dany not answering the question of succession is a huge problem as I’ve already said and detailed. Aegon naming Dany his heir makes zero sense. Aegon’s own children will be the heirs why would Aegon make Dany his heir when he can make heirs? That makes no sense what so ever.

He could make heirs, yes. Westeros has had three boy kings already who could make heirs. Renly, Robb, Joffrey. It is a natural question for Aegon´s followers and would-be followers - if you don´t last, who should we rally to?

And Aegon has an obvious answer. His aunt Daenerys. But it´s important for him to confirm it in public.

Now Daenerys is in a different position. If Aegon is fake and Jon unheard of, who´s her heir? Baratheon usurpers after all, having finally succeeded in exterminating the legitimate Baratheons? Or should Daenerys´ supporters call Baratheons disinherited for their rebellion, and go for some more distant branch line which Dany does not hate? If so which? Dany needs to explain.

Also: if Dany is not barren and a live birth proves Mirri Maz Duur a liar, the question of succession is still not moot. Daenerys is a woman, and birth is dangerous. It is known. If Daenerys´ child lives but Daenerys dies at childbirth, the child cannot ride dragons nor rule for a number of years. Who should then rule Westeros as Regent? Daario Naharys, for being suspected as the father of the baby on Iron Throne?

Making Jon or Aegon Daenerys´ heir faces a problem of principle. Both are claimed to be her nephews - sons of her brother Rhaegaer.

If he´s real and trueborn, he should sit the Iron Throne, not her. If he is fake, he should not be even his heir.

With Jon, Daenerys has an easy third option - declare that although Jon is indeed Rhaegaer´s son, he´s a bastard.  The Seven Kingdoms would easily swallow it - they know Rhaegaer was married to Elia all along.

With Aegon, Daenerys´ third option is much poorer - lean of Aerys´ disinheritance of Aegon and Rhaenys after Trident. But the problem is that most of Targaryen loyalists are likely to regard the disinheritance as invalid madness of Aerys.

Therefore Daenerys can more easily recognize Jon than Aegon.

Finally, if both are real then Aegon is the elder brother and should sit the Iron Throne.

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On 11/25/2018 at 5:35 PM, Lollygag said:

Everyone in the story is going to struggle with this, not just the Starks. That's why Westeros was written to be so all-around awful. They'll struggle to overcome old wrongs in the face of needing to work together. There's plenty of that to spread around and def not just with Starks. But if Woo-hoo Tribalism! is your take from this series, we're not going to agree on much of anything.

We are not going to agree on much of anything.  That much is true.  I suspect what I want to happen and what you want to happen, who I want to succeed and who you want to succeed, are light years apart.  

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6 hours ago, Son of Man said:

We are not going to agree on much of anything.  That much is true.  I suspect what I want to happen and what you want to happen, who I want to succeed and who you want to succeed, are light years apart.  

GRRM doesn't give a f*** what you, I or any reader wants. The only thing worth discussing is what we speculate may or may not end up written.

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On 11/17/2018 at 2:35 PM, Starkz said:

Jon staying dead or dying makes no sense in the story. Jon was betrayed by the NW and he’ll use that amongst other things to leave the NW. Jon has a higher calling than just the NW and every reader should be able to notice that. I doubt many are going to care that he’s left the NW after he saves the North from the Bolton’s and then the Realm from the AoTD, furthermore Robb’s will is out there somewhere. Jon staying dead or turning into a wight is fan-fiction from Jon haters.

Jon's arc is nicely concluded, in my opinion.  Ned's arc was concluded in aGoT.  Rhaegar's was concluded at the trident.  Jon's was concluded at the wall by Marsh and his men.  The story can move forward very nicely without bringing Jon back into the plot.  This is a good place to end his story.  I don't think Jon has a higher calling.  I mean, he failed at this so-called lower calling.  Why would anybody give him a promotion after he betrayed his own men at the wall.  

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On 11/29/2018 at 10:49 AM, El Guapo said:

Can I just point out that there is absolutely no proof whatsoever that Dany can't have children.  None.  Also this idea that the Lords of Weasteros will be even questioning who the successor will be for a FIFTEEN year old Queen is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have ever read.

This.  Good point. 

What we have here in this topic is an OP who is not really speculating but rather writing their own story.  It is ridiculous.  A younger person naming an older person her heir.   

Edited by Here's Looking At You, Kid

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If Dany/Jon died without issue - which may very well turn out to be the case - then chances are not that bad that a child of Aegon and Arianne's is going to become her presumptive heir and successor. That would sort of a mirror image to Aegon III becoming the unwanted heir of Aegon II. Dany may end up putting down Aegon, but if Arianne is pregnant at the time or already has a child (or Aegon has another child from a different woman) then Dany is not going to kill it.

Aegon III even thought Gaemon Palehair could succeed him, so there is always room to wiggle in a strange and unexpected heir.

If Dany and Jon had a child together that would be their heir, of course, but whether they would actually count each other as their heirs doesn't sound very likely to me unless they don't work closely together. Jaehaerys I's acknowledged heir after his rise to the throne was his niece Princess Aerea, not his younger sister (and later wife) Alysanne or his older sister Rhaena.

In part, this might also be a generational problem. Jon Snow and Aegon and Tyrion are all older than Daenerys, so she should definitely look for a younger heir, not operate under the assumption she is not going to outlive men that are older than her - men that might fight face in more battles than she ever will.

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5 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Jon's arc is nicely concluded, in my opinion.  Ned's arc was concluded in aGoT.  Rhaegar's was concluded at the trident.  Jon's was concluded at the wall by Marsh and his men.  The story can move forward very nicely without bringing Jon back into the plot.  This is a good place to end his story.  I don't think Jon has a higher calling.  I mean, he failed at this so-called lower calling.  Why would anybody give him a promotion after he betrayed his own men at the wall.  

Jon’s arc isn’t concluded nor did he “fail at this so called lower calling”. Just because you hate Jon and despise him doesn’t mean that his arc is anywhere close to being finished or that Jon “failed”. I find wishing death upon characters for the reason of disliking them rather hateful and rude. Their are far to many question marks around Jon and plot progress needed for him to die at this point.

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23 hours ago, Jaak said:

He could make heirs, yes. Westeros has had three boy kings already who could make heirs. Renly, Robb, Joffrey. It is a natural question for Aegon´s followers and would-be followers - if you don´t last, who should we rally to?

And Aegon has an obvious answer. His aunt Daenerys. But it´s important for him to confirm it in public.

Now Daenerys is in a different position. If Aegon is fake and Jon unheard of, who´s her heir? Baratheon usurpers after all, having finally succeeded in exterminating the legitimate Baratheons? Or should Daenerys´ supporters call Baratheons disinherited for their rebellion, and go for some more distant branch line which Dany does not hate? If so which? Dany needs to explain.

Also: if Dany is not barren and a live birth proves Mirri Maz Duur a liar, the question of succession is still not moot. Daenerys is a woman, and birth is dangerous. It is known. If Daenerys´ child lives but Daenerys dies at childbirth, the child cannot ride dragons nor rule for a number of years. Who should then rule Westeros as Regent? Daario Naharys, for being suspected as the father of the baby on Iron Throne?

Making Jon or Aegon Daenerys´ heir faces a problem of principle. Both are claimed to be her nephews - sons of her brother Rhaegaer.

If he´s real and trueborn, he should sit the Iron Throne, not her. If he is fake, he should not be even his heir.

With Jon, Daenerys has an easy third option - declare that although Jon is indeed Rhaegaer´s son, he´s a bastard.  The Seven Kingdoms would easily swallow it - they know Rhaegaer was married to Elia all along.

With Aegon, Daenerys´ third option is much poorer - lean of Aerys´ disinheritance of Aegon and Rhaenys after Trident. But the problem is that most of Targaryen loyalists are likely to regard the disinheritance as invalid madness of Aerys.

Therefore Daenerys can more easily recognize Jon than Aegon.

Finally, if both are real then Aegon is the elder brother and should sit the Iron Throne.

Dany has no need of an heir for the 7K as she has no right to the Throne. The rightful King is Aegon. Should Aegon die, then she would need a heir which she can’t provide.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If Dany/Jon died without issue - which may very well turn out to be the case - then chances are not that bad that a child of Aegon and Arianne's is going to become her presumptive heir and successor. That would sort of a mirror image to Aegon III becoming the unwanted heir of Aegon II. Dany may end up putting down Aegon, but if Arianne is pregnant at the time or already has a child (or Aegon has another child from a different woman) then Dany is not going to kill it.

Aegon III even thought Gaemon Palehair could succeed him, so there is always room to wiggle in a strange and unexpected heir.

If Dany and Jon had a child together that would be their heir, of course,

What would Daenerys do if she has the unhoped-for live child, of uncertain paternity and legitimacy (Hizdahr or Daario - she´s not sure) and then next child with her nephew (Jon or Aegon)? Is she going to disinherit her miracle firstborn?

Queen Rhaenyra certainly regarded her "Strong" sons as her heirs till they all got killed, and Daemon fought for them and avenged Lucerys even though his own Aegon only became heir when all "Strongs" had been killed.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In part, this might also be a generational problem. Jon Snow and Aegon and Tyrion are all older than Daenerys, so she should definitely look for a younger heir, not operate under the assumption she is not going to outlive men that are older than her - men that might fight face in more battles than she ever will.

Yes, but then she needs to be looking for Regent as well.

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14 hours ago, Lollygag said:

GRRM doesn't give a f*** what you, I or any reader wants. The only thing worth discussing is what we speculate may or may not end up written.

I fear that GRRM is feeling pressure to pack the books with fan-service.

6 hours ago, Jaak said:

What would Daenerys do if she has the unhoped-for live child, of uncertain paternity and legitimacy (Hizdahr or Daario - she´s not sure) and then next child with her nephew (Jon or Aegon)? Is she going to disinherit her miracle firstborn?

Queen Rhaenyra certainly regarded her "Strong" sons as her heirs till they all got killed, and Daemon fought for them and avenged Lucerys even though his own Aegon only became heir when all "Strongs" had been killed.

Yes, but then she needs to be looking for Regent as well.

Unlike the fBaratheons who were birthed by Cersei without her husband Robert's seed. It is Daenerys who has the claim to House Targaryen holdings and titles. Since Daenerys is queen she can legitimise her bastards, which will to a large degree be accepted by her followers.

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9 hours ago, Jaak said:

What would Daenerys do if she has the unhoped-for live child, of uncertain paternity and legitimacy (Hizdahr or Daario - she´s not sure) and then next child with her nephew (Jon or Aegon)? Is she going to disinherit her miracle firstborn?

She doesn't seem to have such a child - if she were to have a child from any man - Hizdahr, Daario, anyone else - before she reaches Westeros then one assumes she would see said child as her heir.

9 hours ago, Jaak said:

Queen Rhaenyra certainly regarded her "Strong" sons as her heirs till they all got killed, and Daemon fought for them and avenged Lucerys even though his own Aegon only became heir when all "Strongs" had been killed.

Daemon may have been more interested in participating in Rhaenyra's rule than who would eventually succeed when he was no longer around. He was pretty old during the Dance already. Or he planned to get rid of Laenor's brats in due time. He may have been the opinion that Rhaenyra first had to sit the Iron Throne before he could put his son Aegon into a position to succeed her.

9 hours ago, Jaak said:

Yes, but then she needs to be looking for Regent as well.

Not if she doesn't plan to die. It would be good to have a regent at hand, but you cannot necessarily plan for that unless you know you will die.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:
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Not if she doesn't plan to die. It would be good to have a regent at hand, but you cannot necessarily plan for that unless you know you will die.

All men die. It’s just a question of when and how. Daenerys could plan not to die until she’s accomplished everyone of her ambitions. She could still fail. It’d be irresponsible to have no back up plan available for when that happens. Hell plenty of normal parents whose survival who don’t have an entire country to look after designate one of their friends or relatives to look after their child in case they die. 

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On 11/30/2018 at 11:10 PM, Jaak said:

 

Now Daenerys is in a different position. If Aegon is fake and Jon unheard of, who´s her heir? Baratheon usurpers after all, having finally succeeded in exterminating the legitimate Baratheons? Or should Daenerys´ supporters call Baratheons disinherited for their rebellion, and go for some more distant branch line which Dany does not hate? If so which? Dany needs to explain.

How about Edric Storm? The boy is charming, the son of Robert and a noblewoman so although a bastard, he is still completely of noble lineage. I don’t believe she’s likely to show anymore animosity towards him than she did Joffery(who she wanted to pay to go away rather than just having to fight). 

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16 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

All men die. It’s just a question of when and how. Daenerys could plan not to die until she’s accomplished everyone of her ambitions. She could still fail. It’d be irresponsible to have no back up plan available for when that happens. Hell plenty of normal parents whose survival who don’t have an entire country to look after designate one of their friends or relatives to look after their child in case they die. 

No king has a regent for his young heir at the ready for the case he should die tomorrow. Or do you recall anything about Aerys II, Robert, Robb, Stannis, Renly, etc. having a potential regent at the ready should they die in battle?

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16 hours ago, Starkz said:

Dany has no need of an heir for the 7K as she has no right to the Throne. The rightful King is Aegon. Should Aegon die, then she would need a heir which she can’t provide.

Daenerys has more right to the seven kingdoms than anybody else.  She is the heir of the last Targaryen king, King Viserys III.  Her identity as a Targaryen has been proven.  She has hatched dragons from stone.  Aegon is more likely than not to be a Blackfyre.  Jon is a Stark bastard and no more.  

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