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Rant & Rave Season 8 [Spoilers]: When you are cool like a cucumber, as evil as the mother of madness, but never as perfect as the pet!

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

I assume he did the latter because for these to guys drinking and whoring aren't bad traits...

Tyrion is a great character in the books because he is an outsider and outcast due to his size and looks while also having the ambition of a great lord. A proper adaptation would have given us the actual characters and his issues with himself and women and not Peter Dinklage playing Peter Dinklage and hanging out with Lena Headey who is his real life buddy.

Another big difference between book and show Tyrion is that book Tyrion entirely agrees with his father's methods of waging war.  

He is quite unfazed when his father wants to set the Riverlands ablaze;  he arms the mountain clans in order that they can reduce the Vale to a smoking wasteland;  he laughed inwardly at the sight of Masha Heddle's corpse;  his attitude towards complaints of rape is "I think it's what they call war";  he turns over suspected traitors for "a taste of Joffrey's justice";  even as a slave, he's inwardly chiding Daenerys for not poisoning the wells.  Little of this ruthlessness made it on to the screen.  If and when, he and Dany meet, and he becomes her advisor, he'll want her to bring fire and sword to her enemies;  he won't be advocating complicated, unworkable, non-violent solutions.

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4 hours ago, SeanF said:

He is quite unfazed when his father wants to set the Riverlands ablaze;  he arms the mountain clans in order that they can reduce the Vale to a smoking wasteland;  he laughed inwardly at the sight of Masha Heddle's corpse;  his attitude towards complaints of rape is "I think it's what they call war";  he turns over suspected traitors for "a taste of Joffrey's justice";  even as a slave, he's inwardly chiding Daenerys for not poisoning the wells.

You know, if one were to read just this about the character without any other knowledge, one might think to themselves 'that sounds like an evil prick'. No one would mistake that person for a saint.

Lets face it, the trouble started when they didn't adapt Tyrion's look. They decided to pretty him up from his book counter part and then did the same to his character traits.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Mystical said:

You know, if one were to read just this about the character without any other knowledge, one might think to themselves 'that sounds like an evil prick'. No one would mistake that person for a saint.

Lets face it, the trouble started when they didn't adapt Tyrion's look. They decided to pretty him up from his book counter part and then did the same to his character traits.

To be fair, practically every hideous character is far more handsome or pretty in the show. Look at Ramsay Bolton.

And exactly. Tyrion is not a good person. He well and truly is Tywin's son and it's clear he wants to be loved, but that it won't happen is what brings out who he truly is.

I really hate Saint Tyrion. Peter Dinklage would have been great at playing the real Tyrion, but jokey, clever and non violent Tyrion is what we really needed to see i guess :angry:

Edited by Ghostlydragon

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Mystical said:

You know, if one were to read just this about the character without any other knowledge, one might think to themselves 'that sounds like an evil prick'. No one would mistake that person for a saint.

Lets face it, the trouble started when they didn't adapt Tyrion's look. They decided to pretty him up from his book counter part and then did the same to his character traits.

I think of the six major characters (Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa and Bran) he is the darkest.  I think Aunt Genna was right when she said he was the one of Tywin's children who most resembled him.

That said, I don't think there's anything about Tyrion's attitude towards war, or prostitutes, that marks him out as being that unusual for members of his class. It's the other five whose attitudes are unusual in some ways, for nobility and royalty in this world.  We might be horrified by Tywin's methods of warfare, but I think they represent the norm in Westeros. He's very much based upon Edward I and Philip the Fair, both of whom used similar military methods.  Commanders discovered that the chevauchee (basically mass murder, rape, and arson)  was an effective military strategy.  After reading books like Kill Them All and By Sword and Fire, by Sean McGlynn, or A Distant Mirror, by Barbara Tuchman, I'd have to say that if anything, Martin pulls his punches a bit, in describing war.

Edited by SeanF

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38 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That said, I don't think there's anything about Tyrion's attitude towards war, or prostitutes, that marks him out as being that unusual for members of his class. It's the other five whose attitudes are unusual in some ways, for nobility and royalty in this world.  We might be horrified by Tywin's methods of warfare, but I think they represent the norm in Westeros.

I'm not talking about in-universe. I'm talking about viewers/readers. If what you wrote about Tyrion (which I quoted in my previous post) is the first thing they heard about this Tyrion character, the person wouldn't think 'sounds like a swell guy'. They would think what I wrote previously. And then the person starts watching the show and would be like 'erm, that's nothing like the description I heard, wth is going on?'. That's how different book and show Tyrion are.

And I really can't see the same ending for Tyrion in the books that he got in the show because the character is so damn different. So many people in this story have had gruesome ends or awful things happening to them for tiny mistakes made, or hell just breathing/existing, but he gets rewarded for his evil deeds? Especially since I suspect he will be the devil on Dany's shoulder urging her toward violence/slaughter/burning. And then he gets to decide who should be king and/or becomes hand of whoever will be in power? COME ON. Quite frankly that would reek of writer bias by GRRM.

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8 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I'm not talking about in-universe. I'm talking about viewers/readers. If what you wrote about Tyrion (which I quoted in my previous post) is the first thing they heard about this Tyrion character, the person wouldn't think 'sounds like a swell guy'. They would think what I wrote previously. And then the person starts watching the show and would be like 'erm, that's nothing like the description I heard, wth is going on?'. That's how different book and show Tyrion are.

And I really can't see the same ending for Tyrion in the books that he got in the show because the character is so damn different. So many people in this story have had gruesome ends or awful things happening to them for tiny mistakes made, or hell just breathing/existing, but he gets rewarded for his evil deeds? Especially since I suspect he will be the devil on Dany's shoulder urging her toward violence/slaughter/burning. And then he gets to decide who should be king and/or becomes hand of whoever will be in power? COME ON. Quite frankly that would reek of writer bias by GRRM.

I agree that he will likely be Daenerys's evil genius, constantly advising her "It is better to be feared than to be loved" or "mercy is just another word for cowardice".  But, despite being "the villain" he is Martin's favourite.  

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11 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I'm not talking about in-universe. I'm talking about viewers/readers. If what you wrote about Tyrion (which I quoted in my previous post) is the first thing they heard about this Tyrion character, the person wouldn't think 'sounds like a swell guy'. They would think what I wrote previously. And then the person starts watching the show and would be like 'erm, that's nothing like the description I heard, wth is going on?'. That's how different book and show Tyrion are.

And I really can't see the same ending for Tyrion in the books that he got in the show because the character is so damn different. So many people in this story have had gruesome ends or awful things happening to them for tiny mistakes made, or hell just breathing/existing, but he gets rewarded for his evil deeds? Especially since I suspect he will be the devil on Dany's shoulder urging her toward violence/slaughter/burning. And then he gets to decide who should be king and/or becomes hand of whoever will be in power? COME ON. Quite frankly that would reek of writer bias by GRRM.

Absolutely. And if we somehow get to a completely ridiculous kingmaker chapter in book 7, then Tyrion will demand he is made king. He won't be happy just being the hand (even though that may as well be the top position). He will take over himself and revel in the absolute power the position of King will grant him.

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If Tyrion becomes a dragonrider he will want to sit the Iron Throne himself - regardless who his true father is, a dragon is ultimate power, and he is, in the end, not going to want to share that power, especially not if Dany disappoints him. King consort at her side would be fine, one assumes, but if they no longer get along because of Jon he might decide he would be a better ruler all by himself.

Tyrion turned once against his family back in ASoS. He can do that again with his other family, be it an adopted family or his secret other family.

And his ambitions will naturally develop, anyway, if he claims a dragon in Dany's absence while she is still in the Dothraki Sea. Whoever claims Viserion and Rhaegal will run the show in Slaver's Bay quickly enough. They will become Dany's equals. She may be the Mother of Dragons, but the men mounting Viserion and Rhaegal will be the masters of those dragons, and Dany won't control them just because her name is Targaryen.

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The blessing/curse of GRRM never finishing the series is that no one will ever have to abandon their crackpot theories/their happy endings/their whatever.  I can't imagine Winds, when it ever comes out, will move fast enough or cover enough ground to put an end to anyone's theories.  Fans will continue to believe whatever they want to believe until the end of time.  

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2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

The blessing/curse of GRRM never finishing the series is that no one will ever have to abandon their crackpot theories/their happy endings/their whatever.  I can't imagine Winds, when it ever comes out, will move fast enough or cover enough ground to put an end to anyone's theories.  Fans will continue to believe whatever they want to believe until the end of time.  

We will get an ending to the books. If George were to die, his heirs would see to it that the books are finished, one way or another. Unless he takes legal steps to prevent that, but as far as he said he leaves such decisions to his heirs.

As for that idea that the show sort of hits the end points of 'George's vision':

If that truly were the case, if the characters more or less do or end up where the books intend them to go then one should have expected George to come back in and write the finale or perhaps even more than a couple of episodes.

If you look at TV shows which were 'the babies' of their creators then they often like to that, even if they leave in the middle of it or take a back seat and let other writers write the bulk of the episodes. For George participating in the writing process of the later seasons/last episodes could have been a unique creative experience. He could tried to realize certain scenes he had in his head for years and decades, test whether they work within in the framework of the show, and what that means for the book vision. It could even have helped him write the books faster because he realized how great this or that actually worked, etc.

But there is nothing of that sort. Instead he left after season 4 and never came back. He didn't even offer any more advice or input after that original talk he had with the show writers years ago - after which quite a few things changed.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/27/2020 at 3:11 PM, SeanF said:

But, we can see that the show and the books bear almost no relation to each other, after Season 4, whatever Martin might say. They are vastly different, as we've agreed upthread.  We are not talking about minor differences, like how many children Scarlett O'Hara had.  It's just not possible to say that the books and show are "largely the same" on the basis of the evidence that we have to date.  Tyrion in the show bears no relation to Tyrion in the books.  Martin has described Tyrion as "the villain" of the tale.  Tyrion, the villain, might triumph in the books, but that would be a case of evil winning.

Is the endgame really going to be Cersei v Daenerys?  Will Euron just be a horny pirate?  Will Ramsay Bolton rape Sansa?  Will there be a Battle of the Bastards?  Will there be a wight hunt, which results in the fall of the Wall?  Will Arya spring out of a tree to kill the Great Other?  Will Daenerys be fireproof?  Will Cersei blow up the Great Sept, and nobody is terribly concerned about it?  Was there a secret annulment that made Jon the "rightful heir"?  Those all seem very unlikely developments in the books to me. 

Why would the show sanctify Tyrion when the books make him a completely different character?  If the show can sanctify Tyrion, it could just as easily vilify Daenerys.  For that matter, Jon, in the books, bears no relation to the kind of jellyfish that D & D turned him into in the last two seasons.

Agreed, and there are many quotes where GRRM says the ending is different, and many quotes where Benioff and Weiss say the ending is different.

Butterflies turned to mighty dragons, the show is the show and the books are the books, that's what GRRM has been saying for years, right to the end.

He doesn't consider missing characters like Arianne and Lady Stoneheart as inconsequential at all. As he said, the show is an alternate universe.

There are lots of interviews where he says the ending is different, and they've been posted on this thread complete with full interview and links, etc.

And we have another way of telling it's different, too. Benioff and Weiss.

Benioff/Weiss when asked if the ending would be the same, pointedly said the ending would be "in the spirit of the books" (and we know what that means to them). 

They said they made changes because it's better for the show (ha ha ha). They said they made changes because they write to the actors. Etc.

We know Benioff/Weiss made lots of changes, from season to season, from episode to episode. They were flying by the seat of their pants, and changing on a whim.

And that continued right up to the end. Weiss:

It wasn’t like something where five years ago one of us said, “I think this has to happen and I know this is right.” [The final season was] something that gradually unfolded with neither of us wanting to plant a flag in the ground right out of the gate. Because what if you’re wrong? What if there’s a better idea out there and you planted a flag on the second- or third-best idea? So it was always more a “What if…” conversation than an “I think that…”

WHAT IF, they were "what if"-ing each other about the ending.

Here's Peter Dinklage on Tyrion:

"The beauty of Tyrion is that he grew out of that mode in a couple of seasons and developed a strong sense of responsibility. Not morality, because he always had that, but what to do with his intelligence."

And here's GRRM on Tyrion:

With Shae, it’s a much more deliberate and in some ways a crueler thing. It’s not the action of a second, because he’s strangling her slowly and she’s fighting, trying to get free. He could let go at any time. But his anger and his sense of betrayal is so strong that he doesn’t stop until it’s done and that’s probably the blackest deed that he’s ever done. It’s the great crime of his soul along with what he did with his first wife by abandoning her after the little demonstration Lord Tywin put on. Now by the standards of Westeros, that’s hardly a crime at all — “So a lord killed a whore, big deal.” He’s not likely to be punished for that any more than any other lords and knights who treat lowborn women and prostitutes and tavern wenches with contempt and use them and discard them. It’s nothing to the world, but it’s again something that’s going to haunt him, while the act of killing his father is something of enormous consequence that would be forever beyond the pale, for no man is as cursed as a kinslayer.

A skilled writer couldn't suddenly tie the mess the show became prior to the final season to the books, and they sure don't meet that description.

They kept saying it's not the same, in interview after interview. They said they "what if"-ed each other to come up with the ending.

(BTW just noticed this on his blog post where he says yes and no about the ending... it's titled: "An Ending" - as in not THE ending.)

Edited by Le Cygne

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Posted (edited)

I think it is willful self-deception at best and malicious prevarication at worst to suggest that the show spoils the book series in any meaningful way.

Interestingly, the opinion that the ending of the show is broadly the same as the ending of the books seems to occur most often in two major brackets: those who were -- and in many cases, still are -- show apologists, and those who take their likes and dislikes when it comes to characters too seriously and are hoping the aspects of the ending which pleased them will be germane. Please forgive me if I am not overly eager to agree with the prevailing views of these groups.

 

Even the showrunners have not made a confident statement about the similarity of the endings since the series aired, despite multiple such claims prior to then. Note that these are the same people who claimed that Season 5 was "very much within the books;" any self-respecting reader who bothered to analyze the show to any extent would realize how erroneous and frankly insulting this statement is.

Judging by the pattern of their writing, including but not limited to the inability to use or understand literary elements, misunderstanding of themes, lack of characterization, insufficient seeding, poor plotting, uneven pacing, suffusive bigotry, unearned and cheap twists, unrelenting nihilism, and so forth, it could not be clearer that Season 8 was the exemplar of their approach and more of the same -- nothing more and nothing less.

Edited by Many-Faced Votary

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Le Cygne said:

Agreed, and there are many quotes where GRRM says the ending is different, and many quotes where Benioff and Weiss say the ending is different.

Butterflies turned to mighty dragons, the show is the show and the books are the books, that's what GRRM has been saying for years, right to the end.

He doesn't consider missing characters like Arianne and Lady Stoneheart as inconsequential at all. As he said, the show is an alternate universe.

There are lots of interviews where he says the ending is different, and they've been posted on this thread complete with full interview and links, etc.

And we have another way of telling it's different, too. Benioff and Weiss.

Benioff/Weiss when asked if the ending would be the same, pointedly said the ending would be "in the spirit of the books" (and we know what that means to them). 

They said they made changes because it's better for the show (ha ha ha). They said they made changes because they write to the actors. Etc.

We know Benioff/Weiss made lots of changes, from season to season, from episode to episode. They were flying by the seat of their pants, and changing on a whim.

And that continued right up to the end. Weiss:

It wasn’t like something where five years ago one of us said, “I think this has to happen and I know this is right.” [The final season was] something that gradually unfolded with neither of us wanting to plant a flag in the ground right out of the gate. Because what if you’re wrong? What if there’s a better idea out there and you planted a flag on the second- or third-best idea? So it was always more a “What if…” conversation than an “I think that…”

WHAT IF, they were "what if"-ing each other about the ending.

Here's Peter Dinklage on Tyrion:

"The beauty of Tyrion is that he grew out of that mode in a couple of seasons and developed a strong sense of responsibility. Not morality, because he always had that, but what to do with his intelligence."

And here's GRRM on Tyrion:

With Shae, it’s a much more deliberate and in some ways a crueler thing. It’s not the action of a second, because he’s strangling her slowly and she’s fighting, trying to get free. He could let go at any time. But his anger and his sense of betrayal is so strong that he doesn’t stop until it’s done and that’s probably the blackest deed that he’s ever done. It’s the great crime of his soul along with what he did with his first wife by abandoning her after the little demonstration Lord Tywin put on. Now by the standards of Westeros, that’s hardly a crime at all — “So a lord killed a whore, big deal.” He’s not likely to be punished for that any more than any other lords and knights who treat lowborn women and prostitutes and tavern wenches with contempt and use them and discard them. It’s nothing to the world, but it’s again something that’s going to haunt him, while the act of killing his father is something of enormous consequence that would be forever beyond the pale, for no man is as cursed as a kinslayer.

A skilled writer couldn't suddenly tie the mess the show became prior to the final season to the books, and they sure don't meet that description.

They kept saying it's not the same, in interview after interview. They said they "what if"-ed each other to come up with the ending.

(BTW just noticed this on his blog post where he says yes and no about the ending... it's titled: "An Ending" - as in not THE ending.)

Martin's three favourite characters are Tyrion, Daenerys, and Arya.  He says Tyrion is "the villain". Would he make two (perhaps all three) of them villains?  Well, perhaps, but that would make the tale nihilistic, rather than bittersweet.  It would be very much a piece of grimdark fiction, basically a tale of evil protagonists trying to outwit each other.  Even Jon, Sansa, and Bran could turn dark, in various ways.  That can work in a Joe Abercrombie novel, because he laces his stories with very black humour.  But, I don't think it's the story Martin is telling.

Edited by SeanF

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Martin's three favourite characters are Tyrion, Daenerys, and Arya.  He says Tyrion is "the villain". Would he make two (perhaps all three) of them villains?  Well, perhaps, but that would make the tale nihilistic, rather than bittersweet.  It would be very much a piece of grimdark fiction, basically a tale of evil protagonists trying to outwit each other.  Even Jon, Sansa, and Bran could turn dark, in various ways.  That can work in a Joe Abercrombie novel, because he laces his stories with very black humour.  But, I don't think it's the story Martin is telling.

I agree completely. It is also important to remember that Mr. Martin is a romanticist -- classically so. This should inform the nature of his character arcs and the ending of his story. :)

As such, although Tyrion is the primary character who is most likely to take a dark turn -- which he has already done at the end of A Storm of Swords and largely fallen further throughout A Dance with Dragons -- and to stay there, I think it is very likely that he will ultimately temper this with heroic deeds as a way to atone (whether directly or indirectly), and even that he will redeem himself in some measure. I do not believe Tyrion will have a happy ending, and he should absolutely not be forgiven by the narrative for the evil he has willingly and selfishly propagated or for the personality flaws which he has allowed to rule him; but I am very much of the opinion that his fate will be bittersweet.

As you have explained, Tyrion is clearly the "villain" of the supposed "Big Five" (or Six, if we were to include Sansa along with Arya, Bran, Dany, Jon, and Tyrion). If some degree of hope is likely in his ending, I find it difficult to believe that the others will have anything less than bittersweet in theirs, in the literary sense as seen in Mr. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings.

Edited by Many-Faced Votary

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4 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I agree completely. It is also important to remember that Mr. Martin is a romanticist -- classically so. This should inform the nature of his character arcs and the ending of his story. :)

As such, although Tyrion is the primary character who is most likely to take a dark turn -- which he has already done at the end of A Storm of Swords and largely fallen further throughout A Dance with Dragons -- and to stay there, I think it is very likely that he will ultimately temper this with heroic deeds as a way to atone (whether directly or indirectly), and even to redeem himself in some measure. I do not believe Tyrion will have a happy ending, and he should absolutely not be forgiven by the narrative for the evil he has willingly and selfishly propagated; but I am very much of the opinion that his fate will be bittersweet.

As you have explained, Tyrion is clearly the "villain" of the supposed "Big Five" (or Six, if we were to include Sansa along with Arya, Bran, Dany, Jon, and Tyrion). If some degree hope is likely in his ending, I find it difficult to believe that the others will have anything less than bittersweet in theirs, in the literary sense as seen in Mr. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings.

I think it's very likely that each of Daenerys, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran will do things that are to, varying degrees, morally dubious in the rest of the story, for reasons of survival and/or because they're at war.

I doubt if Dany will be taking prisoners, when she returns to Meereen.  Arya may become more vengeful.  Jon won't be unchanged by his death and resurrection.  Sansa may be drawn further into Littlefinger's plots, and Bran may well use his mental powers to take control of others.

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Posted (edited)

Just wanted to give a shout out to anyone here who gets it. It's so great to have forums like this where we can discuss our feeling for the show without being called an idiot, ungrateful, not true fans, or just about anything that I'm sure everyone here has been called at some point.

Having a place to talk with sensible people has been great and I never expected that this topic would still be so popular :wub:

Edited by Ghostlydragon

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On 5/21/2020 at 4:40 PM, Cas Stark said:

Well, they can't do that because Bran has to become king.  It would have been better if they did whatever GRRM intends, or if they couldn't pull that off, then let it be Jon and Dany working together, so that Jon's entire story is not undercut by him not getting the kill. If something is done well it is still satisfying even if it isn't a surprise for the audience, or you can have surprising elements even within the context of an event that is widely expected. 

Depends on whether or not Bran is supposed to become King. On Arya’s end, if they were so intent on having her be the one who kills the Night King, why not have her use one of the tools she has in her arsenal?

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1 hour ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Just wanted to give a shout out to anyone here who gets it. It's so great to have forums like this where we can discuss our feeling for the show without being called an idiot, ungrateful, not true fans, or just about anything that I'm sure everyone here has been called at some point.

Having a place to talk with sensible people has been great and I never expected that this topic would still be so popular :wub:

Are there people who still defend Season 8?  But, yes, Westeros.Org is a great forum, and all credit to @Ran and @Linda for creating it.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Depends on whether or not Bran is supposed to become King.

It could very well be that GRRM had a plan to make Bran king. If D&D were truthful about that coming from GRRM, it might have been his original/old plan that kind of won't work anymore due to him dropping the 5 year gap. At the end of the story, Bran is still too young for that. And even if the events over the next two books would take 5 years, he's still only 14-15 then. I can't see anyone being ok with a 15 year old King of a Westeros that's literally burning everywhere and in ruins after years of wars, a soon to be coming medical epidemic and an ice zombie apocalypse, no matter how magical he is. King in the North maybe. But all of Westeros? No freaking way.

Edited by Mystical

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2 hours ago, Mystical said:

It could very well be that GRRM had a plan to make Bran king. If D&D were truthful about that coming from GRRM, it might have been his original/old plan that kind of won't work anymore due to him dropping the 5 year gap. At the end of the story, Bran is still too young for that. And even if the events over the next two books would take 5 years, he's still only 14-15 then. I can't see anyone being ok with a 15 year old King of a Westeros that's literally burning everywhere and in ruins after years of wars, a soon to be coming medical epidemic and an ice zombie apocalypse, no matter how magical he is. King in the North maybe. But all of Westeros? No freaking way.

They've already had a 13 and an 8 year old king, with no discontentment related to age.

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